User talk:Richardw

Help wanted

@Richardw: I'd like to ask for your advice and help... Hi, I'm from Italy and I've seen you're a Dutch admin, I hope there's no problem if I speak English. I'm having troubles in Dutch wiki, there's a pair of corrections about Italian towns that should be done, but the Dutch users I met are biased towards me and don't want foreign users to interfere with Dutch wiki. I'm not trying forcing my "point of view", never ever: I'm providing correct information about the correct spelling of that pair of cities. So you don't have to trust my word, I well know that the whole wiki project isn't based on volunteer users but on primary sources, in fact I'm going to privide them to you, it'll be up to you to decide whether those sources are reliable or not, more or less authoritative than the ones "found" by the other Dutch users. But I strongly believe that you'll agree with they higher reliability. Obviously, should you disagree instead, I won't insist further. Consider that, without any offense for anyone, Italian mother-language speakers living in Italy since they were born have a better knowledge of Italian language, conventions and sources than any foreign person trying to understand them, exactly as Dutch speakers like you compared to Italian speakers like me have a better knowledge about Dutch language issues. For example, I'd never contest a Dutch user coming to it.wikipedia in order to ask Italian users to correct a pair of Dutch proper names from the "Y" spelling to the "IJ" spelling, I might try understanding more about this issue but I'd never doubt a mother-language speaker nor the sources he brings. This was the whole premise, now if you think you could be able to advise and help me I'll explain you what's this particular issue, I'll be shorter than I've been here since sources will speak for me. I'll wait for your reply. Thank you anyway for reading so far :-) 46.249.38.152 (talk) 12:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ciao! Could you be more specific? Please provide the names of the cities concerned, links to the articles, pointers to earlier conversations and the like. The IP addressed you used to post this question doesn't seem to have been used on the Dutch Wikipedia.

Also – and I do not know if that's the case here – some cities do have a name in Dutch that is different from the one in Italian, for example Rome for Roma, Venetië for Venezia, Milaan for Milano, and Florence for Firenze (see http://namen.taalunie.org/land/it for more examples). In those cases the Dutch name is usually preferred.

Please let me know the what and where. Richard 13:08, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your disposability! Okay, I'll answer your questions. The 2 cities are "Ruffré-Mendola" and "Cirié", too small to have a Dutch translation. The first is currently named "Ruffrè" in Dutch wiki, it's because originally there were 2 towns, Ruffé and Passo Mendola, which some years ago were united in one city; almost all other wikis have moved the page after that but not Dutch wiki. Here's the source: Comune di Ruffrè Mendola (actually, the pronunciation of the final E in "RuffrE" is closed, so the correct orthography in Italian should be "Ruffré", but since the website didn't care about that it's okay renaming the page "Ruffrè-Mendola" with grave accent). The second has always been named in all wikis, that is also in nl.wikipedia, "Cirié" with acute accent. As you can see in the municipal site (Sito istituzionale della Città di Cirié) and in particular in the official statute (Statuto del Comune di Cirié) the correct spelling is Cirié. Unfortunately, a Dutch user has moved it to Ciriè, without any discussions and without consensus, just because he found a random road sign spelled with an apostrophe looking like a grave accent. I've been told that in Nederlands road signs have "an official value", but in Italy the situation is different: we Italians don't care so much about accents, since they're always and only at the aend of the words on the final vowel, so we often replace them with apostrophes, and this always happens for road signs and generically in signs. Here you can see a road sign near Cirié where the word "velocità" (speed) is written "velocita'" with an apostrophe in place of the grave accent. All this was to explain why foreign people may make mistaked about such issues. Anyway, do you agree with me that the most authoritative and reliable source about the spelling of a town is its statute? I hope so. Well, this is all I had to say about this issue, but if you have more questions please ask me. The pages should be moved to Ruffrè-Mendola and to Cirié. Let me know!

46.249.38.152 (talk) 13:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For Ruffrè-Mendola, I would have no objections. There was a move proposal which was denied, but the website clearly states Ruffrè-Mendola.

For Cirié: when moving that page, Erik pointed to the move proposal mentioned above. I will ask him to have a look here. The websites you link to do seem to use the acute accent.

To be continued. Richard 14:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good! If ErikvanB is willing to discuss with me on equal terms I'll have no problems, but as I've said I'm afriad he's biased towards me: he moved the page Cirié to Cirié just because I asked in the general discussion to move Ruffrè to Ruffré-Mendola. I'd like me and him to be clear with each others, but so far all I could do is ask other users like you. Let's remember that it's not "me" the issue but the correct spelling of those 2 Italian comuni, if Dutch users as you consider autorithative enoughs their municipal sites and their official statutes, then the renaming should be done just for correctness of information in nl.wikipedia.

46.249.38.152 (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some remarks:

You tend to ignore sources that contradict your viewpoint. When I show you the Istituto Nazionale di Statistica or other sources, for instance, you prefer not to pay any attention to them.
I have not just moved the page Cirié to Ciriè because of the road sign, but mainly for reasons of consistency.
The topic of accents is also controversial on the Italian Wikipedia. Here, for example, somebody changing Cirié into Ciriè wrote: seguendo quanto ovvio a chiunque conosca la lingua italiana, e inequivocabilmente emerso dalla discussione. - Ortografia corretta. Prima di tutto perché l'uso dell'accento grave è una regola della lingua italiana; in secondo luogo perché – come è ovvio e come è emerso dalla discussione – tutte le fonti serie sono assolutamente concordi nell'usare l'accento grave (in English: "obvious to anyone who knows Italian, as has become unequivocally clear from the discussion - Correct spelling. First of all because the use of the grave accent is a rule of the Italian language; secondly because - as is obvious and as has emerged from the discussion - all serious sources absolutely agree about the use of the grave accent"). In 2013, user Ellegimark moved the Italian page from Cirié to Ciriè "come da discussione" ("as discussed"). Some discussion can be found here. In 2015, user AttoRenato moved the Italian page from Ciriè to Cirié. So who says the Italians know best and agree?
In general, it is obvious that other wikis will copy the spelling of the Italian Wikipedia. In 2014, user Qwertqwertqwert, for example, moved en:Ciriè to en:Cirié because that was the spelling on the Italian Wikipedia.
The same thing has been going on in the case of Ruffrè and Ruffré. In 2015, user MisterMicro moved it:Ruffrè-Mendola to it:Ruffré-Mendola. On 6 March 2018‎, user LuigiPortaro29 moved en:Ruffrè-Mendola to en:Ruffré-Mendola. Some pages on some wikis have been moved after you put administrators and ordinary users under enormous pressure to do so, if I'm not mistaken, because you have been campaigning for other accents for years.
Finally, it may even be disputed that the "the municipal site" is an authority on this issue – firstly because such websites are often created by the local community, not the local government, secondly, because there may be rivalry between communities speaking different dialects, and so on.

I hope I have made my point clear. ErikvanB (talk) 17:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you've come here to reply, ErikvanB, and I'll be glad to answer all of your points, forgive me for being long in this message.

I don't ignore them: I'm Italian and I already know why they're not considered reliable about such issues. Don't you think that Italian users who discussed about them know what's the ISTAT? You're Dutch so you couldn't be aware of what I'm going to say, no offense at all in this, trust me! ISTAT has chosen not to distinguish between accents: it always uses the grave accent, for all Italian cities, without exception (except for French named cities in Aosta Valley: French are more exigent than Italian about accents). Do you think that all Italian accented cities end with grave accent? It would mean that all Italian cities ending with E are pronounced with final /ɛ/ and none of them with final /e/. Do you think this is possible? Tell me, sincerely. Well, it's not possible. There're about a dozen of cities ending with acute accent over E, among the which Cirié. ISTAT was founded in 1926: you couldn't know it but in Italian it was commonly used only grave accent at the end of words before WWII, only dictionaries distinguished between "è" and "é". Seriously, Italian users has discussed and established that ISTAT couldn't be used as source for geographical names, do you think that we all were wrong and you only are right? Come on... Instead, about your second link: Google results aren't exactly "reliable sources". Aren't you just using numbers to justify your idea? There're over 80 millions results for "perchè" with grave accent on Google, and it's the wrong spelling for "perché". Try discerning which are the most reliable sources: random Google results? There're 2 books written by an Italian born in Cirié, Giovanni Crosetto, titled "Cirié in guerra" and "Cirié tra sviluppo e guerra": you won't find any occurrence for "Ciriè" in there, while in random books containing "Ciriè" there're occurrences for "Cirié" too. Sincerely, which do you think can be considered "reliable sources"? It's not me (nor all Italian users) not paying attention to them, it's you paying attention only to them, without taking in consideration the official site, the official statute of the town, which is the first source that anybody would look at to find the official spelling. I'm sure you can understand this, this is a simple concept and you don't seem stupid, you know what I'm saying it true.
Consistency of what? Of all (ALL) the other wikis? Dutch wiki is the only inconsistent wiki, as you can see, and it's been consistent for years, since the very beginning, until you moved that page without any discussion, just because I asked to move "another" page.
Okay, I'll explain to you this too. From 2004 to 2013 it's been named Cirié. In 2013 a simple autopatrolled moved the page. In 2015 a sysop moved the page back. In the discussion not everybody agreed, it was moved against consensus, so it was moved back, a user who had joined the old discussion asking for sources for grave accent without receiving answers thanked the admin for that. Do you know, instead, who wrote the first message you cited? An anonymised Italian user registered as Arbalete/Friedrichstrasse who was blocked for "disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point". In fact he was immediately reverted twice by the admin. He also was either ignorant or mendacious about Italian language: no rule exist establishing that all Italian words and names must have the grave accent, it's just more common than acute accent. De facto, it was only the blocked user and the user who moved the page the first time who thought the correct spelling was Cirié: as I keep saying, the official source, that is the "Comune di Cirié" itself, confirms that the name must be written with acute accent.
In a few cases, the pages were originally written with grave accent. In all the other cases, they had the acute accent since the beginning. In the wikis where the page was moved, it's obvious they copied the spelling used in it.wikipedia: they entrust Italians, knowing that Italians understand Italian issues better than non-Italian, again without offese for anyone. Why don't you consider the official statute of the city, saying in Art. 1 "Il Comune di Cirié è ente autonomo locale con rappresentatività generale secondo i principi della Costituzione", reliable?
I've never been campaining for Ruffré, never ever! Just in nl.wikipedia for Ruffré-Mendola because it had the name "Ruffrè". And it still has. But I told you that it's not a matter of "accent", because I'm insisting in adding "-Mendola", not in changing the accent, since in the official site it's written with grave accent. I'm Italian so I know that the correct pronunciation is closed and it should have the acute accent, but since the official site use the grave accent... Do you see I'm being sincere? If I wasn't, I'd be trying making you change the accent, not add the second name, I'm consistent for this issue and for Cirié issue, considering for both the municipal site as the most authoritative source. There're still lots of wikis where the name is written with grave accent, and in none of them I've tried asking for a renaming, because they had the full name, the only thing I'm interested in. And, no need to say, I've never had anything to do with the users who moved the pages in Italian and English wiki.
Your statement is an "original research". And you're wrong. Municipal administrations are dependent from national government, they can't do anything against it, if the name written there uses a certain accent it's because the central government agrees with that, do you think that when a new "comune" is instituted Rome isn't informed of the name and doesn't have to approve it officially? You're wrong also in your other supposition, because the local name of Cirié is Siriè with grave accent: in piemontese dialect is pronounced with /ɛ/, in standard Italian with /e/. It's exaclty the opposite than you said.

I hope my replies were clear enough, I'm here to answer your doubts anyway. 46.249.38.152 (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop importing problems from another languageversion here and refrain from block evasion by using an open proxy. MoiraMoira (talk) 22:35, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please correct that manifest error (i.e. just restore as it was before) and you'll never see me again in nl.wikipedia under any form, this is a promise, shouldn't I keep it I know you'll move again the pages, so this will be an assurance against seeing me again in Dutch wiki or talking to Dutch users. 46.249.38.152 (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting reply. Let me compliment you on your excellent English and let's take a break, because you are making some administrators and users very nervous and upset. ErikvanB (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't offensive at all in my reply, and it took me long to answer exhaustively... Please, don't make me think that "it was a waste of time since the very beginning because you didn't come here with the intention to discuss on equal terms but just in order to confirm your point of view without even questioning yourself about it and to ask admins another global block", show me that you're better than this and reply to my argumentations, contest them if you have better arguments, but don't ignore them. I'll tell you more: if I'm annoying Dutch users with these corrections, I'll just disappear from nl.wikipedia forever and I won't disturb any other Dutch user, if you just restore the page you moved. If you think you did it with tacit consensus, then try discussing it with other users in nl.wikipedia: tell them that an Italian user (without insulting me, the subject of that topic isn't me but Cirié) sustains that the correct accent is acute because that's how it's officially registered in the municipal statute; tell them that in it.wikipedia it was discussed the issue and, even if not everybody agreed (but consensus doesn't mean unanimity), the consensus was reached for the spelling with acute accent; tell them also your point of view, but without saying your wrong assumptions I've shown you (ISTAT uses only grave accents for its own choice, not because all Italian town have grave accents, municipal names are officially approved by national government, etc...), just say that the spelling Ciriè seems more commons but not in authoritative sources, that not all Italian users agree but the majority including a sysop confirmed that the official spelling has the acute accent. And do the same for Ruffré-Mendola, no, for Ruffrè-Mendola. If you do that, if you don't show any bias towards me and Italian users who established to use Cirié, I'm sure Dutch users will agree with the spelling with acute accent, and in that case you won't see me ever again, because should I show up under any form you'll have a valid excuse to move again the pages to the not official (wrong) names, and you know I don't want it, so I'll keep my promise. Please also note that in nl.wikipedia there're still lots of Italian names with grave accent which should have acute but I'm not trying to make you move them. Consider what I've just told you and let me know, please. 46.249.38.152 (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: in fact, there are two cases. First, the case of 'Ruffr[éè]'. The proposed move was twofold: the accent was to be changed and the '-Mendola' was to be added. Although the first part (changing the accent) was later deemed less urgent, it became the main reason for denying the request. In the past, similar changes have been found controversial and/or counterproductive. That the request was made by someone working behind open proxies and the like, didn't help either. Justified or not, it always gives the impression that s/he is hiding something. Second, the case of Ciri[éè]. Erik renamed the page for reasons of internal consistency – that is, consistency within the Dutch Wikipedia. I don't know if I would have done that, but he did and he explained why he did it. My personal knowledge of Italian is extremely limited so I cannot say who's right and who's wrong – or if both opinions are justifiable. In any case, I can see that at the moment there is no consensus (not even between the users on the Italian Wikipedia) and that is a powerful regulating mechanism in the Dutch Wikipedia.

Some final thoughts for 46.249.38.152:

You said we Italians don't care so much about accents. For something you don't care much about, you sure are passionate.
You accuse Erik of personal bias. I don't think that's a fair assessment. He doesn't agree with you, but that has probably nothing to do with you personally. On the other hand, you wrote I'm Italian and I already know, You're Dutch so you couldn't be aware, and a little further on you couldn't know it. That way of putting it might be seen as biased: Italians know and non-Italians don't. Perhaps it would have been better to use something like you're probably not aware and you might not know it. After having read your post above, I am still Dutch but now I am aware of the things that, according to the way you put it, I could not be aware of.
- Similarly, I am sure that I do not know everything pertaining to the Netherlands, the Dutch and their language, and I am confident that there are people with other nationalities that know more about these things than me.
If you can't reach an understanding, sometimes it's best to 'agree to disagree'. Starting discussions on the same topic in several places can be perceived as 'pushy'. Most likely, it will not help you in getting it your way, but it sure will undermine your credibility in future conversations.

Richard 09:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for letting us discuss in your talk page, Richard.

Italians don't care about accents and one of the most common errors is using apostrophes in place of accents and viceversa (see). This doesn't mean that all Italians are such ignorants, people like me are very careful in such issues, that's why I'm so astonished for seeing that an "encyclopedy" like this shows such errors to readers and I wish they were corrected.
I'm really sorry if my sentences were offensive for any Dutch user. It's as you said, the meaning was "you're probably not aware" or "you might not know it". I didin't mean that Ducth are ignorant, not al all! And I admit I'm ignorant about Dutch language. I'm just saying that most of his assumptions would have never been done by an average Italian because most of us already know about these linguistic issues, because it's about the language we speak every day and we've been speaking since we were child. Now you know much more about Italian language, I've explained and sourced lots of things, and shown which were the mistakes he was committing. Again, I apologise for having been offensive without wishing it.
You may not know everything about Dutch, but I bet this: you know where to search if you have a doubt and you know how to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources about Dutch, and you know Dutch better than an average non-Dutch, you may not know Dutch better than a foreign speaker who studied Dutch language as first or second foreign language, such as an interpreter. I know Italian better than an average Italian and I've proven it showing sources and pointing out mistakes, this doesn't mean I'm an expert like the best Italian linguists, not al tall, just that I'm not ignorant and careless about my own language like much of us are.
Don't you think that, if these discussions about Ruffré/è-Mendola and Cirié are dealt in nl.wikipedia among Dutch users but without any bias towards the user who proposed them (that is, without talking about "me" but just about the issues and the related official sources) without my interference, you Dutch may decide that my proposal is correct and that both Ruffrè and Ciriè should be renamed (as they're named in their official sites and in all other wikis)?

About the first part of your comment: what's the reason for not moving "Ruffrè" to "Ruffrè-Mendola" if the accent is kept? And what was the consistency in nl.wikipedia you were talking about? He had to change also the template where the name of Cirié was written to recrate consistency after the renaming: there was already consistency, there's always been until then... Don't trust "me" for these issues, trust source and Italian users and admins who established which sources provide the official names of the cities, the names that have to be written in Wikipedia. 46.249.38.152 (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Help wanted

@Richardw: I'd like to ask for your advice and help... Hi, I'm from Italy and I've seen you're a Dutch admin, I hope there's no problem if I speak English. I'm having troubles in Dutch wiki, there's a pair of corrections about Italian towns that should be done, but the Dutch users I met are biased towards me and don't want foreign users to interfere with Dutch wiki. I'm not trying forcing my "point of view", never ever: I'm providing correct information about the correct spelling of that pair of cities. So you don't have to trust my word, I well know that the whole wiki project isn't based on volunteer users but on primary sources, in fact I'm going to privide them to you, it'll be up to you to decide whether those sources are reliable or not, more or less authoritative than the ones "found" by the other Dutch users. But I strongly believe that you'll agree with they higher reliability. Obviously, should you disagree instead, I won't insist further. Consider that, without any offense for anyone, Italian mother-language speakers living in Italy since they were born have a better knowledge of Italian language, conventions and sources than any foreign person trying to understand them, exactly as Dutch speakers like you compared to Italian speakers like me have a better knowledge about Dutch language issues. For example, I'd never contest a Dutch user coming to it.wikipedia in order to ask Italian users to correct a pair of Dutch proper names from the "Y" spelling to the "IJ" spelling, I might try understanding more about this issue but I'd never doubt a mother-language speaker nor the sources he brings. This was the whole premise, now if you think you could be able to advise and help me I'll explain you what's this particular issue, I'll be shorter than I've been here since sources will speak for me. I'll wait for your reply. Thank you anyway for reading so far :-) 46.249.38.152 (talk) 12:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ciao! Could you be more specific? Please provide the names of the cities concerned, links to the articles, pointers to earlier conversations and the like. The IP addressed you used to post this question doesn't seem to have been used on the Dutch Wikipedia.

Also – and I do not know if that's the case here – some cities do have a name in Dutch that is different from the one in Italian, for example Rome for Roma, Venetië for Venezia, Milaan for Milano, and Florence for Firenze (see http://namen.taalunie.org/land/it for more examples). In those cases the Dutch name is usually preferred.

Please let me know the what and where. Richard 13:08, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your disposability! Okay, I'll answer your questions. The 2 cities are "Ruffré-Mendola" and "Cirié", too small to have a Dutch translation. The first is currently named "Ruffrè" in Dutch wiki, it's because originally there were 2 towns, Ruffé and Passo Mendola, which some years ago were united in one city; almost all other wikis have moved the page after that but not Dutch wiki. Here's the source: Comune di Ruffrè Mendola (actually, the pronunciation of the final E in "RuffrE" is closed, so the correct orthography in Italian should be "Ruffré", but since the website didn't care about that it's okay renaming the page "Ruffrè-Mendola" with grave accent). The second has always been named in all wikis, that is also in nl.wikipedia, "Cirié" with acute accent. As you can see in the municipal site (Sito istituzionale della Città di Cirié) and in particular in the official statute (Statuto del Comune di Cirié) the correct spelling is Cirié. Unfortunately, a Dutch user has moved it to Ciriè, without any discussions and without consensus, just because he found a random road sign spelled with an apostrophe looking like a grave accent. I've been told that in Nederlands road signs have "an official value", but in Italy the situation is different: we Italians don't care so much about accents, since they're always and only at the aend of the words on the final vowel, so we often replace them with apostrophes, and this always happens for road signs and generically in signs. Here you can see a road sign near Cirié where the word "velocità" (speed) is written "velocita'" with an apostrophe in place of the grave accent. All this was to explain why foreign people may make mistaked about such issues. Anyway, do you agree with me that the most authoritative and reliable source about the spelling of a town is its statute? I hope so. Well, this is all I had to say about this issue, but if you have more questions please ask me. The pages should be moved to Ruffrè-Mendola and to Cirié. Let me know!

46.249.38.152 (talk) 13:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For Ruffrè-Mendola, I would have no objections. There was a move proposal which was denied, but the website clearly states Ruffrè-Mendola.

For Cirié: when moving that page, Erik pointed to the move proposal mentioned above. I will ask him to have a look here. The websites you link to do seem to use the acute accent.

To be continued. Richard 14:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good! If ErikvanB is willing to discuss with me on equal terms I'll have no problems, but as I've said I'm afriad he's biased towards me: he moved the page Cirié to Cirié just because I asked in the general discussion to move Ruffrè to Ruffré-Mendola. I'd like me and him to be clear with each others, but so far all I could do is ask other users like you. Let's remember that it's not "me" the issue but the correct spelling of those 2 Italian comuni, if Dutch users as you consider autorithative enoughs their municipal sites and their official statutes, then the renaming should be done just for correctness of information in nl.wikipedia.

46.249.38.152 (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some remarks:

You tend to ignore sources that contradict your viewpoint. When I show you the Istituto Nazionale di Statistica or other sources, for instance, you prefer not to pay any attention to them.
I have not just moved the page Cirié to Ciriè because of the road sign, but mainly for reasons of consistency.
The topic of accents is also controversial on the Italian Wikipedia. Here, for example, somebody changing Cirié into Ciriè wrote: seguendo quanto ovvio a chiunque conosca la lingua italiana, e inequivocabilmente emerso dalla discussione. - Ortografia corretta. Prima di tutto perché l'uso dell'accento grave è una regola della lingua italiana; in secondo luogo perché – come è ovvio e come è emerso dalla discussione – tutte le fonti serie sono assolutamente concordi nell'usare l'accento grave (in English: "obvious to anyone who knows Italian, as has become unequivocally clear from the discussion - Correct spelling. First of all because the use of the grave accent is a rule of the Italian language; secondly because - as is obvious and as has emerged from the discussion - all serious sources absolutely agree about the use of the grave accent"). In 2013, user Ellegimark moved the Italian page from Cirié to Ciriè "come da discussione" ("as discussed"). Some discussion can be found here. In 2015, user AttoRenato moved the Italian page from Ciriè to Cirié. So who says the Italians know best and agree?
In general, it is obvious that other wikis will copy the spelling of the Italian Wikipedia. In 2014, user Qwertqwertqwert, for example, moved en:Ciriè to en:Cirié because that was the spelling on the Italian Wikipedia.
The same thing has been going on in the case of Ruffrè and Ruffré. In 2015, user MisterMicro moved it:Ruffrè-Mendola to it:Ruffré-Mendola. On 6 March 2018‎, user LuigiPortaro29 moved en:Ruffrè-Mendola to en:Ruffré-Mendola. Some pages on some wikis have been moved after you put administrators and ordinary users under enormous pressure to do so, if I'm not mistaken, because you have been campaigning for other accents for years.
Finally, it may even be disputed that the "the municipal site" is an authority on this issue – firstly because such websites are often created by the local community, not the local government, secondly, because there may be rivalry between communities speaking different dialects, and so on.

I hope I have made my point clear. ErikvanB (talk) 17:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you've come here to reply, ErikvanB, and I'll be glad to answer all of your points, forgive me for being long in this message.

I don't ignore them: I'm Italian and I already know why they're not considered reliable about such issues. Don't you think that Italian users who discussed about them know what's the ISTAT? You're Dutch so you couldn't be aware of what I'm going to say, no offense at all in this, trust me! ISTAT has chosen not to distinguish between accents: it always uses the grave accent, for all Italian cities, without exception (except for French named cities in Aosta Valley: French are more exigent than Italian about accents). Do you think that all Italian accented cities end with grave accent? It would mean that all Italian cities ending with E are pronounced with final /ɛ/ and none of them with final /e/. Do you think this is possible? Tell me, sincerely. Well, it's not possible. There're about a dozen of cities ending with acute accent over E, among the which Cirié. ISTAT was founded in 1926: you couldn't know it but in Italian it was commonly used only grave accent at the end of words before WWII, only dictionaries distinguished between "è" and "é". Seriously, Italian users has discussed and established that ISTAT couldn't be used as source for geographical names, do you think that we all were wrong and you only are right? Come on... Instead, about your second link: Google results aren't exactly "reliable sources". Aren't you just using numbers to justify your idea? There're over 80 millions results for "perchè" with grave accent on Google, and it's the wrong spelling for "perché". Try discerning which are the most reliable sources: random Google results? There're 2 books written by an Italian born in Cirié, Giovanni Crosetto, titled "Cirié in guerra" and "Cirié tra sviluppo e guerra": you won't find any occurrence for "Ciriè" in there, while in random books containing "Ciriè" there're occurrences for "Cirié" too. Sincerely, which do you think can be considered "reliable sources"? It's not me (nor all Italian users) not paying attention to them, it's you paying attention only to them, without taking in consideration the official site, the official statute of the town, which is the first source that anybody would look at to find the official spelling. I'm sure you can understand this, this is a simple concept and you don't seem stupid, you know what I'm saying it true.
Consistency of what? Of all (ALL) the other wikis? Dutch wiki is the only inconsistent wiki, as you can see, and it's been consistent for years, since the very beginning, until you moved that page without any discussion, just because I asked to move "another" page.
Okay, I'll explain to you this too. From 2004 to 2013 it's been named Cirié. In 2013 a simple autopatrolled moved the page. In 2015 a sysop moved the page back. In the discussion not everybody agreed, it was moved against consensus, so it was moved back, a user who had joined the old discussion asking for sources for grave accent without receiving answers thanked the admin for that. Do you know, instead, who wrote the first message you cited? An anonymised Italian user registered as Arbalete/Friedrichstrasse who was blocked for "disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point". In fact he was immediately reverted twice by the admin. He also was either ignorant or mendacious about Italian language: no rule exist establishing that all Italian words and names must have the grave accent, it's just more common than acute accent. De facto, it was only the blocked user and the user who moved the page the first time who thought the correct spelling was Cirié: as I keep saying, the official source, that is the "Comune di Cirié" itself, confirms that the name must be written with acute accent.
In a few cases, the pages were originally written with grave accent. In all the other cases, they had the acute accent since the beginning. In the wikis where the page was moved, it's obvious they copied the spelling used in it.wikipedia: they entrust Italians, knowing that Italians understand Italian issues better than non-Italian, again without offese for anyone. Why don't you consider the official statute of the city, saying in Art. 1 "Il Comune di Cirié è ente autonomo locale con rappresentatività generale secondo i principi della Costituzione", reliable?
I've never been campaining for Ruffré, never ever! Just in nl.wikipedia for Ruffré-Mendola because it had the name "Ruffrè". And it still has. But I told you that it's not a matter of "accent", because I'm insisting in adding "-Mendola", not in changing the accent, since in the official site it's written with grave accent. I'm Italian so I know that the correct pronunciation is closed and it should have the acute accent, but since the official site use the grave accent... Do you see I'm being sincere? If I wasn't, I'd be trying making you change the accent, not add the second name, I'm consistent for this issue and for Cirié issue, considering for both the municipal site as the most authoritative source. There're still lots of wikis where the name is written with grave accent, and in none of them I've tried asking for a renaming, because they had the full name, the only thing I'm interested in. And, no need to say, I've never had anything to do with the users who moved the pages in Italian and English wiki.
Your statement is an "original research". And you're wrong. Municipal administrations are dependent from national government, they can't do anything against it, if the name written there uses a certain accent it's because the central government agrees with that, do you think that when a new "comune" is instituted Rome isn't informed of the name and doesn't have to approve it officially? You're wrong also in your other supposition, because the local name of Cirié is Siriè with grave accent: in piemontese dialect is pronounced with /ɛ/, in standard Italian with /e/. It's exaclty the opposite than you said.

I hope my replies were clear enough, I'm here to answer your doubts anyway. 46.249.38.152 (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop importing problems from another languageversion here and refrain from block evasion by using an open proxy. MoiraMoira (talk) 22:35, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please correct that manifest error (i.e. just restore as it was before) and you'll never see me again in nl.wikipedia under any form, this is a promise, shouldn't I keep it I know you'll move again the pages, so this will be an assurance against seeing me again in Dutch wiki or talking to Dutch users. 46.249.38.152 (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting reply. Let me compliment you on your excellent English and let's take a break, because you are making some administrators and users very nervous and upset. ErikvanB (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't offensive at all in my reply, and it took me long to answer exhaustively... Please, don't make me think that "it was a waste of time since the very beginning because you didn't come here with the intention to discuss on equal terms but just in order to confirm your point of view without even questioning yourself about it and to ask admins another global block", show me that you're better than this and reply to my argumentations, contest them if you have better arguments, but don't ignore them. I'll tell you more: if I'm annoying Dutch users with these corrections, I'll just disappear from nl.wikipedia forever and I won't disturb any other Dutch user, if you just restore the page you moved. If you think you did it with tacit consensus, then try discussing it with other users in nl.wikipedia: tell them that an Italian user (without insulting me, the subject of that topic isn't me but Cirié) sustains that the correct accent is acute because that's how it's officially registered in the municipal statute; tell them that in it.wikipedia it was discussed the issue and, even if not everybody agreed (but consensus doesn't mean unanimity), the consensus was reached for the spelling with acute accent; tell them also your point of view, but without saying your wrong assumptions I've shown you (ISTAT uses only grave accents for its own choice, not because all Italian town have grave accents, municipal names are officially approved by national government, etc...), just say that the spelling Ciriè seems more commons but not in authoritative sources, that not all Italian users agree but the majority including a sysop confirmed that the official spelling has the acute accent. And do the same for Ruffré-Mendola, no, for Ruffrè-Mendola. If you do that, if you don't show any bias towards me and Italian users who established to use Cirié, I'm sure Dutch users will agree with the spelling with acute accent, and in that case you won't see me ever again, because should I show up under any form you'll have a valid excuse to move again the pages to the not official (wrong) names, and you know I don't want it, so I'll keep my promise. Please also note that in nl.wikipedia there're still lots of Italian names with grave accent which should have acute but I'm not trying to make you move them. Consider what I've just told you and let me know, please. 46.249.38.152 (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: in fact, there are two cases. First, the case of 'Ruffr[éè]'. The proposed move was twofold: the accent was to be changed and the '-Mendola' was to be added. Although the first part (changing the accent) was later deemed less urgent, it became the main reason for denying the request. In the past, similar changes have been found controversial and/or counterproductive. That the request was made by someone working behind open proxies and the like, didn't help either. Justified or not, it always gives the impression that s/he is hiding something. Second, the case of Ciri[éè]. Erik renamed the page for reasons of internal consistency – that is, consistency within the Dutch Wikipedia. I don't know if I would have done that, but he did and he explained why he did it. My personal knowledge of Italian is extremely limited so I cannot say who's right and who's wrong – or if both opinions are justifiable. In any case, I can see that at the moment there is no consensus (not even between the users on the Italian Wikipedia) and that is a powerful regulating mechanism in the Dutch Wikipedia.

Some final thoughts for 46.249.38.152:

You said we Italians don't care so much about accents. For something you don't care much about, you sure are passionate.
You accuse Erik of personal bias. I don't think that's a fair assessment. He doesn't agree with you, but that has probably nothing to do with you personally. On the other hand, you wrote I'm Italian and I already know, You're Dutch so you couldn't be aware, and a little further on you couldn't know it. That way of putting it might be seen as biased: Italians know and non-Italians don't. Perhaps it would have been better to use something like you're probably not aware and you might not know it. After having read your post above, I am still Dutch but now I am aware of the things that, according to the way you put it, I could not be aware of.
- Similarly, I am sure that I do not know everything pertaining to the Netherlands, the Dutch and their language, and I am confident that there are people with other nationalities that know more about these things than me.
If you can't reach an understanding, sometimes it's best to 'agree to disagree'. Starting discussions on the same topic in several places can be perceived as 'pushy'. Most likely, it will not help you in getting it your way, but it sure will undermine your credibility in future conversations.

Richard 09:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for letting us discuss in your talk page, Richard.

Italians don't care about accents and one of the most common errors is using apostrophes in place of accents and viceversa (see). This doesn't mean that all Italians are such ignorants, people like me are very careful in such issues, that's why I'm so astonished for seeing that an "encyclopedy" like this shows such errors to readers and I wish they were corrected.
I'm really sorry if my sentences were offensive for any Dutch user. It's as you said, the meaning was "you're probably not aware" or "you might not know it". I didin't mean that Ducth are ignorant, not al all! And I admit I'm ignorant about Dutch language. I'm just saying that most of his assumptions would have never been done by an average Italian because most of us already know about these linguistic issues, because it's about the language we speak every day and we've been speaking since we were child. Now you know much more about Italian language, I've explained and sourced lots of things, and shown which were the mistakes he was committing. Again, I apologise for having been offensive without wishing it.
You may not know everything about Dutch, but I bet this: you know where to search if you have a doubt and you know how to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources about Dutch, and you know Dutch better than an average non-Dutch, you may not know Dutch better than a foreign speaker who studied Dutch language as first or second foreign language, such as an interpreter. I know Italian better than an average Italian and I've proven it showing sources and pointing out mistakes, this doesn't mean I'm an expert like the best Italian linguists, not al tall, just that I'm not ignorant and careless about my own language like much of us are.
Don't you think that, if these discussions about Ruffré/è-Mendola and Cirié are dealt in nl.wikipedia among Dutch users but without any bias towards the user who proposed them (that is, without talking about "me" but just about the issues and the related official sources) without my interference, you Dutch may decide that my proposal is correct and that both Ruffrè and Ciriè should be renamed (as they're named in their official sites and in all other wikis)?

About the first part of your comment: what's the reason for not moving "Ruffrè" to "Ruffrè-Mendola" if the accent is kept? And what was the consistency in nl.wikipedia you were talking about? He had to change also the template where the name of Cirié was written to recrate consistency after the renaming: there was already consistency, there's always been until then... Don't trust "me" for these issues, trust source and Italian users and admins who established which sources provide the official names of the cities, the names that have to be written in Wikipedia. 46.249.38.152 (talk) 11:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, thank you for trying giving me a hand, if all Dutch users were as disposable as you towards foreign users everything would go better in Dutch wiki and not only there... Instead, alas, there're users proving themself totally biased towards us such as Moira, who instead of even just reading my rightful requests invites other users to ignore me, and Erik, who instead of replying to my arguments preferes talking to other users about me in a perfect "argumentum-ad-hominem" style... None of them has either recognised anything good I've tried doing or considered opening a discussion among Dutch user to verify whether the consensus if for Ruffrè-Mendola or Ruffrè and Ciriè or Cirié as I invited them to do (as they were scared of their lack of consensus)... It's not a genetic or environmental matter afterall, or I wouldn't have had the chance to meet users like you, Richard, and another pair of kind Dutch users I've found who couldn't help me despite agreeing with me because they were afraid of Ducth admins, it's just a matter of single persons, the worst but, alas, the most powerful... This is a defeat, not a victory, for Wikipedia... 46.249.38.152 (talk) 17:59, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]