Talk:Testosterone

Effects on the human brain - and some general editing

added a part about the human brain effect & results while editing some other parts of the page also. source is also refered. Nsoltani 06:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Deficiency and osteoporosis

The article includes a wiki-link to the article on osteoporosis, and states that testosterone may be used to treat osteoporosis in men. When this article mentions testosterone deficiency, perhaps it should point out that evidence is now emerging that testosterone deficiency in men is a likely cause of osteoporosis in men. ACEO 20:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Use for Andropause is currently not NPOV

The current version implies that doctors prescribing T for aging pts are somehow beholden to drug companies. Many urologists prescribe testosterone for erectile dysfunction in men with low serum values, a use that is well justified in my opinion. While the indications of when to give testosterone are still debated, the paragraph should indicate this. Tony Makhlouf

I edited the section on replacement in aging men to reflect the prevailing view in the some of the current literature. The ASA (American Society of Andrology) position is in the current (April 2006) issue of the Journal of Andrology (volume 27, p 133). I tried to merge the previous version (which was definitely anti-testosterone replacement) with the ASA position which is a bit more neutral. Cadmus72 03:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Myth Removed

I removed the sentence on "reverse aromatisation" (estradiol being converted back to testosterone as a source of testosterone), despite it having been up for two years, because in fact there is no process in the body whereby it can happen, even indirectly. All references speak of aromatisation of testosterone to estradiol being irreversible, and of course need go into no further detail. Unfortunately the myth is widely believed by doctors who often tell it to patients. It probably arose back when it was thought there was a strong divide between "male" and "female" hormones, when it was not understood that many of testosterone's actions are upon estrogen receptors through conversion to estradiol. Those can often also be triggered by estradiol directly, and so estradiol was seen to be having effect that was thought to be the reserve of testosterone. Wikipedia has unfortunately been one of the main Web sources for perpetuating the myth. It was time that ended. I hope that is generally accepted.--Bluegreen 2 July 2005 02:26 (UTC)

query

to people who head about scientific experimentation that talk about testosterone and hands

I moved above note which I think is part of a query to the Wikipedia:Reference _desk where it might get addressed, but could you add a bit about your question?Alteripse 01:50, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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• Removed "If the usual story plays out, use will increase until large trials demonstrate (1) the benefits are much less dramatic or assured than when treating deficiency, and (2) a higher incidence of side effects will occur associated with this type of use." As a pov speculative statement. The previous sentence needs rewording too. Matt 15:26, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• What do you think POV means? Do you have reason to disagree? Do you not think this pattern has occurred historically over and over? Alteripse 00:08, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Upon consideration, I partly agree with you. I made the sentence less editorial. Better? Alteripse 02:43, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Hello anonymous

You added some good points that deserve to be in another article, as well as some peculiar nonsense. This is what I removed:

Top Andrologists now accept Testosterone Deficiency is a progressive condition, sometimes taking many years to manifest. Rather than a sudden onset in mid-life, it is characterised by a slow decline in energy,cognitive function,mood and libido. Lifestyle and the atmosphere may be partly to blame as obesity, alcohol, drugs,(recreational and some prescribed), tobacco, chemicals and phytoestrogens all attack the body's endocrine balance.

The Pituitary gland's function tends to be at the root of this slow decline, however, the threshold set by leading Endocrinologists prevents all but those severely affected from receiving help. Pituitary related Testosterone Deficiency can often be treated better with pre-cursive hormones such as HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin). Using hormones such as HCG allows the gonads to continue to produce Testosterone, whereas, exogenous Testosterone causes a partial shutdown of the body's natural supply. In cases where the Pituitary gland is the problem, exogenous Testosterone can exacerbate symtpoms, rather than relieving them.

Testosterone Deficiency is seen to be a secondary characteristic in many late onset conditions Researchers are suggesting Hypogonadism may actually cause Diabetes, Alzheimers, Cardiac conditions and Rheumatoid Arthritis. It is present in many others including Parkinsons Disease, Sickle Cell Anaemia, Downs Syndrome and Anaemia.

1. This sounds like drug company advertising copy, the type of thing written to promote use of a high profit, low demand drug. Or, the irritating use of capitals for phrases suggests to the reader that the text was copied and pasted from one of the "let's market this so people think it's an anabolic steroid" sites on the web.
2. Error no. 1. I don't know about andrologists (because anyone can call himself that), but every endocrinologist knows that the clearest, best understood, and most severe cases of testosterone deficiency are not slowly progressive at all, but present at birth, due to damage to testes at any age, or due to surgery or injury to the pituitary. But I suspect those are not your target audience-- you are referring to the decline of testosterone as a normal man ages-- which can be termed a partial deficiency relative to his levels when young. Every doctor has always "accepted" that it is gradual. Your choice of words suggests that the andrologists just caught on.
3. This is what some people (especially when paid by drug companies) refer to as andropause. The degree to which it is a physiologic change and or due to the "attacks" of lifestyle is not considered a settled subject. The validity of the whole concept of testosterone replacement for "andropause" was the subject of a pro and con debate at the Endocrine Society meeting in New Orleans this summer. A well-written lay version of the controversy was published in the New Yorker magazine in summer of 2001 or 2002.
4. I especially liked your sentence about the endocrinologists (sorry, "leading Endocrinologists") preventing the sorely afflicted from obtaining relief. Those heartless hormone withholders! It made me want to go badger an endocrinologist right away to prescribe some. What do you think is behind that reluctance to call the lower levels of aging a "deficiency"? After all, endocrinologists are in the business of pleasing patients and replacing hormones. They love to replace hormones. They get paid to replace hormones. Drug companies beg them to replace hormones. It might surprise you and astonish you to know that most "leading Endocrinologists" are aging men. Wow. Are they trying to keep all the testosterone for themselves? Do you think it might be a conspiracy?
5. Error no. 2. The pituitary is probably not the cause of the declining testosterone levels of age. The pituitary is a signal transducer, and is regulated by the hypothalamus. The real question being debated is whether the testosterone decline with age is to some degree adaptive and advantageous, or whether it can simply be considered a partial deficiency like any other.
6. Error no. 3. hCG! There's the answer! This little lie is slipped right in. Yes, I assume it is a downright lie, that you know better and wish to deceive the reader. In fact no one in their right mind thinks it is better to use hCG to replace testosterone. It's more expensive, it's more frequent injections, it's less proven, it's less physiologic, and you don't want to know where it comes from. However, it's also a generic product, so it isn't what you're selling. Hmmm, let me think... I've got it! You are selling fake hCG! One of those "homeopathic" sprays or drops or "releasers" sold in the muscle magazines and a zillion internet sites? Right?
7. Error no. 4. When given in appropriate doses to replace partial deficiency, testosterone doesn't "shut down the natural supply", though that is exactly what happens when excessive or unnecessary amounts are taken by men who don't need it.
8. Error no. 5. The business about the exogenous testosterone "exacerbating symptoms" when the pituitary is the problem is just plain crap. Testosterone is what is replaced for hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (the kind of real testosterone deficiency where the "pituitary is the problem") in thousands of young and old men every day and it works.
9. Nice try. Subtle, except for the capitals, and the word "leading." Oh, and the mistakes. And you didn't even try to link your site. Admirable restraint. Now if my speculation is way off base, and you can back up your claims with some convincing references, I will eat humble pie and put your message back in. It can live here on the Talk page in the meantime.

PS, if you can keep your fingers off the shift key, and not mention hCG, we could use a good article on the andropause concept and controversy. Thanks. alteripse 13:41, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

genius....

Heathcoteheat 23:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Alteripse: you are too hardcore for us. Has that guy ever replied? I'm guessing no. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 01:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Synthesis: Conflicting Information With Progesterone Article

In Progesterone article: Progesterone, like all other steroid hormones, is synthesized from pregnenolone, a derivative of cholesterol.

In Testosterone article: Testosterone is synthesized from progesterone, the precursor of all steroid hormones and a derivative of cholesterol.

These appear to me to be conflicting or at least confusingly incomplete.--Raymond Keller

Both sentences are approximately correct. Progesterone is derived directly from pregnenolone and both are precursors for all steroid sex hormones and most (not all) steroid hormones. alteripse 20:19, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject. I was trying to gain more but the above quotes confounded me. If you could help me to understand these facts I'm certain I could come up with a clearer rewrite.

I believe I understand chemical precursors and derivatives. Are there accepted/used notions/terms for "direct" precursors or derivatives, or for "ancestral" precursors and "hereditary" derivatives? Also, is there an accepted/used notion/term for "sole" direct precursor, i.e. a derivative comes directly from the precursor in question and directly from no other? Also, is there a notion/term for "sole" ancestor, indicating an ancestral bottleneck? Even if these are so, might it be best to word the article so that the general public may understand these specifics?

To clarify, is cholesterol a/the direct precursor for pregnenolone? Is pregnenolone a/the direct precursor for progesterone? Is progesterone a/the direct precursor for testosterone? Is progesterone the sole precursor of all steroid sex hormones (besides itself and pregnenolone) or just a precursor? Is pregnenolone the sole precursor of all steroid sex hormones (besides itself) or just a precursor?

Does "synthesis" connote artificial creation? If so, is sticking to describing the precursor/derivative relationship less misleading?

Thanks for your help.--Raymond Keller 19:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is a link that depicts the traditional pathways in humans and most mammals. [1] Note that cholesterol is imported from blood into adrenals and gonads. The first conversion to take place is of cholesterol to pregnenolone. Traditionally that has been ascribed to a putative "20,22 cholesterol desmolase" enzyme but in recent years the mechanism has been elucidated with better accuracy as involving 3 distinct reactions: 20 alpha hydroxylation, 22-hydroxylation, and side chain cleavage to produce pregnenolone and isocaproic acid. A single enzyme named P450scc residing in the mitochondrial membrane catalyzes all 3 reactions within a single active site. You can see that subsequently within the adrenals the pregnenolone is converted to progesterone. Three different diverging pathways consisting of 3-5 steps then convert pregnenolone and progesterone to aldosterone (the main mineralocorticoid), cortisol (the main glucocorticoid), and testosterone and estradiol (the main sex hormones). A similar process occurs in the gonads but without the mineralocorticoid and glucocorticoid branches. Some of the final sex hormone steps occur primarily outside the adrenal glands. Is that any clearer? alteripse 01:07, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I notice that the org.chem-people use "precursor" in another way than biochemistry people. In the body, there is no interest in molecules that are similar unless there is a possibility that this reaction could happen. In organic chemistry, the word is used differently. / Habj 03:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand your comment. What do you think is the difference between precursor in an organic chemistry context and precursor in a biochem context? alteripse 19:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Advanced postnatal effect / bone maturation and termination of growth

If I understand correctly, the effects listed under advanced postnatal effects should normally only be found in boys in late puberty. Completion of bone maturation and termination of growth (via estradiol metabolites) though, should happen in both sexes. I find this confusing. / Habj 01:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

You are right, most of the advanced postnatal effects require several years of late pubertal male testosterone levels. It means that height growth comes to an end in both males and females after several years of estradiol bring bone growth to a close. In males, the estradiol comes from testosterone and (compared to females) the estradiol levels rise later, rise more slowly, and reach lower adult levels. This is why boys grow for more years than girls and reach a taller adult height. If you tell me what is confusing I will try to explain further. alteripse 02:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, before the list it says In males these are normal late pubertal effects, and only occur in women after prolonged periods of excessive levels of free testosterone in the blood. which makes me assume that all things listed will be relevant only to men/boys in puberty, and effects in women are possibly abnorm such. Then I see something not gender-specific in the list, and gets confused. Maybe an extra sentence can added to that paragraph before the list? / Habj 21:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I changed it. Is it clearer? alteripse 23:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

removed clomiphene sentence

I removed:

The drug clomiphene citrate, often used as a fartility drug for women, can be used in cases of secondary hypogonadism in men.

because it is misleading (not all cases respond and replacement with T is far more common and the subject of this article. Put it in clomiphene, or in hypogonadism and I won't quibble if it has context and qualification. Respond here if you think I am incorrect. alteripse 01:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Legal Status?

Can someone add some information on the legal status of exogenous testosterone in countries other than the USA?

Testosterone and pop psychology

Though the article is scientific, maybe there should be some (myth-busting) comment on the use of 'testosterone' in pop psychology i.e. a cause for aggression, 'male' behaviour etc.--Jack Upland 04:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Not quite?

The original and primary use of testosterone is for the treatment of males who have little or no natural testosterone. The benefits can include the relief of depression and anxiety, and tiredness. It is not an immediate effect and the benefits can take several months to become apparent. Regular contact with the relevant specialist is highly recommended.

I would like to add here that I am one of those males, and the effects upon the first injection were almost immideate, within 2 hours I felt a mental change, it was like someone had turned on a light in my head.

The physical effects obviously took longer, but within a month I had started to increase muscle mass and within three months I had doubled my strength. I was probably an extreme case as I had pretty much ZERO Testosterone myself, but still.

It is also interestingn to note that the T I receive has as a recommended dosage 100mg/ month for males. I am getting way more than that, my current injection levels are 200mg/week, a lot on the dosage depends on how the body metabolises the hormone.

The "lightbulb" sensation that you mentioned could possibly be the Placebo Effect, but I may be wrong. I have a similar experience when taking Adderall. It feels like a "stuffiness" evaporates from my mind as soon as a swallow the pill, even though the real effects actually occur later. 151.213.230.196 02:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Testosterone and violence

Hello I recently read that patients in mental asylumns in the US around 50 years ago where castrated to "quieten" them. I wonder if you have more information about the less physical displays of masculinity - such as energy and violence - that testosterone might produce?

moved material, waiting for appropriate section

I am temporarily putting this material here. While not untrue, it does not belong in the overview of physiological effects. We do not currently have a section on factors regulating and affecting testosterone levels but these are 2 tiny details from such a section and we can park them here until someone feels inspired to write such a section. alteripse 11:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Michael Exton, Tillmann Krüger et al. examined the effect of a 3-week period of sexual abstinence on the neuroendocrine response to masturbation-induced orgasm [2].

"The procedure was conducted for each participant twice, both before and after a 3-week period of sexual abstinence. Plasma was subsequently analysed for concentrations of adrenaline, noradrenaline, cortisol, prolactin, luteinizing hormone and testosterone concentrations. Orgasm increased blood pressure, heart rate, plasma catecholamines and prolactin. These effects were observed both before and after sexual abstinence. In contrast, although plasma testosterone was unaltered by orgasm, higher testosterone concentrations were observed following the period of abstinence. These data demonstrate that acute abstinence does not change the neuroendocrine response to orgasm but does produce elevated levels of testosterone in males."

Another study has shown that serum testosterone levels peak seven days after abstaining from ejaculation. [3]

Zinc and testosterone

Isn't zinc involved in the production of testosterone? The very word 'zinc' doesn't appear anywhere in this article nor in Testicle. 81.236.236.205 18:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Zinc is a vital trace element involved in a multitude of intracellular processes in many organs and tissues, generally as an enzyme cofactor and as part of the mechanism of DNA transcription. Zinc deficiency occasionally produces clinically detectable problems. In the 1970s it was discovered that extreme zinc deficiency in some adolescent boys in Iraq and Egypt could cause delay of growth and puberty. Restoration of zinc allowed puberty to progress. Zn deficiency dose not seem to be an important cause of pubertal delay in the US or Europe. I don't know of a more direct or important role in testosterone synthesis. Is that what you had in mind? alteripse 10:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My Testosterone Experience

This article is about hormone management and is based on my personal experience. I have not found this technique anywhere else and please have the patience to read through all of it as self-control is a very important issue in today's society. This technique should apply to anyone trying to control themaselves!

In life, there are two types of aggression. The first type is the one which makes you want to upset other people; showing disrespect for people and property. The second is the 'positive aggression' in the form of self-determination to do one's activities, e.g. winning a swimming race. Really, I want Britain to become a more peace-loving nation and, however peace-loving someone is, they need to be aggressive occasionally to give them the drive and motivation to do their day-to-day activities because this aggression provides stimulation. My main purpose for writing this article is so that I can try to sort out Britain's anger problems. It would be nice to get everyone's lives back on track!

What my technique illustrates is that one needs to convert their 'negative aggression' into a 'positive aggression' in order that one does not intimidate anyone else. This means 'challenging your thoughts' by managing your aggression. First and foremost, any aggressive thoughts about upsetting anyone else must instantly be removed from your head. Putting this aggression to good use means saying things in your own head in an aggressive way, for example, "I really want to finish this fiendish Sudoku puzzle in five minutes form start to finish!" What I mean here is, obviously, adapt this thought for anything you enjoy doing but make sure the aggressive thought is nothing to do with wanting to be horrible to anyone or anything in the form of showing disrespect. This technique is ONLY to be used in the form of self-determination. It must be remembered that, if Britain and the rest of the World are to become more peaceful places; this 'positive aggression' has to be kept inside you. This is solely for internal, not external, purposes and under NO circumstances must you take any form of aggression out on anyone else. This technique really is like "shouting inside one's own head" and the purpose behind my technique is that one must exercise self-control by being as peaceful as a dove on the outside.

Lastly, as I am a man, this process is one way of controlling anger so that no-one else ever be harmed!

Is there a fruitcake barnstar? If so, this guy deserves one. --LiamE 19:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

At least he put it on the discussion page and not the article. alteripse 12:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This topic has too much chemical/medical weighting

I'm aware that one or more people may have contributed a great deal of time to this entry but this is the place for frank feedback so here it is.

The tone of this article is (frankly) a little pedantic.

One guiding principle of Wikipedia is NPOV, but that is not the only one. I suggest that WFAGA should be an equally high priority: Write for A General Audience. An encyclopedia is not a medical (or pharmaceutical) reference text.

Here's my (audience) need. I am a prostate cancer patient. Prostate cancer cell proliferation is accelerated by testosterone and I am interested in the ways in which testosterone levels themselves can be managed, for example by diet, sexual practice (or not) and even proven herbal remedies. No, I don't want drug company marketing bumf, far-out herbal theories, or the other extreme: stuffy academic treatises. I want simple practical summaries of accepted research, and that is (I believe) what Wikipedia can do well.

If such explanations are here, I couldn't find them: they must be buried in the extensive technical details. I have a degree in Chemical Engineering and post grad work in Kinesiology so it is not as though the material is too difficult. It is just too technical at the expense of the simple.

On a more conciliatory note, I appreciate the effort and realize that it is difficult to balance the many conflicting needs of a space like this. But the guideline again, I believe, is WFAGA. This is an encyclopedia not a medical reference text.

I agree about the current slant of the article. Nothing wrong with it factually, but it's just rather uninteresting in a lot of areas. I came here because I've just finished reading Steve Jones' Y: The Descent of Men. It talks a lot about the deleterious effects of testosterone on the body: "the cells of the immune system die when exposed to testosterone" (p244) for example. I came here to find out more, because this wasn't something I'd ever heard of before. Unfortunately, there's nothing here about this either! :) Ithika 17:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Oops

I temporarily destroyed the Drugbox template while trying to update the page for epitestosterone. I think I have undone the damage. Sorry about that.

Anabolic Steroids in "Therapeutic use of testosterone"

Why was the following paragraph in there at all? "Anabolic steroids have also been taken to enhance muscle development, strength, or endurance. After a series of scandals and publicity in the 1980s (such as Ben Johnson's improved performance at the 1988 Summer Olympics), prohibitions of anabolic steroid use were renewed or strengthened by many sports organizations, and it was made a "controlled substance" by the United States Congress."

The above section has been moved to the "Testosterone in athletes" section.

"In males, a testosterone patch is applied to the scrotum for several hours before activity."???

Um no, nobody does that. People shoot testosterone or other anabolic steroids or they take orals. Shooting is done about once a week in the upper outer quadrant of the butt. Oral steroids are passed through the system so rapidly that they really aren't worth taking.

I don't really have the inclination to discuss this stuff at length. You can read about this stuff elsewhere on the 'net. I'm just saying that "In males, a testosterone patch is applied to the scrotum for several hours before activity." is crap and should be removed from the article.

Please assimilate: Dropping tes. levels

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15552184/site/newsweek/

Your Dad Had More Testosterone Than You

Study finds that T levels have been dropping steadily for 20 years.