Talk:Historical background of the New Testament

A note to the curious

This is quite possibly the fastest growing talk page in Wikipedia. The archives from the last month total at least 200k of discussion. Unless you have a day to spare, you are advised to read the (disputed) summary of events so far. If you have less than half a day to spare, you are advised to ignore the summary and skip to the last 2 or 3 sections.

CheeseDreams 21:07, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

However, if you want to see what's really going on, I recommend you read the whole thing, and not rely on the summaries written by parties involved in the conflict. CheeseDreams seems very proud that this talk page is growing so fast... Pedant 20:37, 2004 Dec 20 (UTC)

The next move

The article that was FT2s version

/OriginallyFT2

Editors contributing to this version

The article that was Slrubensteins version

/OriginallySlrubenstein

Editors contributing to this version

An alternative version

/fromScratch1

response to 'moving on'

Slrubenstein, I continue to support your general ideas for moving forward with the article once it is unprotected. I think the discussions of incivility and personal attacks are entirely off topic for this page, and a distraction from getting work done on this article, as they have little direct bearing on going forward with the article. By now, we have not only user talk pages, but abundant requests for comment and requests for arbitration pages to discuss such issues. Let's stick to the article here, please. Wesley 04:33, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

seconded! Pedant 19:02, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)

I will try to avoid any form of incivility or personal attack. And I am gratified that Wesley supports my general ideas for moving forward. But I have made a number of specific suggestions and I fully expect other contributors to have criticisms/suggestions and so on. So far, CheeseDreams is the only person to comment critically on any of my suggestions. Should I ignore her, or respomnd to her criticisms? How do I respond to a criticism like, "the phrase "all of it, including the grammer" seems to me to be aposite?" If the page is unprotected, I do not want to make the changes I have proposed only to have them reverted, or to be accused of ignoring criticisms. How should I have responded to CheeseDreams' rejection of my suggestions? I am seriously asking for advice. Slrubenstein

Slr, I honestly don't think a response is possible. CD's objection is not sufficiently clear -- after all, changing everything including the grammar would be a major overhaul, and no suggestions are made as to what you should overhaul it to. You could counterpropose "Cheese is tasty - perhaps the Pharisees liked it" and have addressed the objection CD makes. I would offer you criticisms and suggestions that were more specific and constructive, but I have not researched the topic well enough to know whether or not your version is accurate. As far as making changes that are reverted, if the only objection to your proposal is that it is "all wrong, including the grammar", without any constructive suggestions or references that contradict your account, I don't see that a reversion is at all justifiable. If actual objections are made, then they need to be resolved, but if the current one remains alone, I'll gladly help defend your version against reversion. I hope CheeseDreams will offer more constructive feedback soon. Jwrosenzweig 21:46, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Israeli cheese does not taste very nice, so I doubt the Pharisees liked it. CheeseDreams 00:07, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

SLR, my opinion is that in the absence of specific objections or constructive criticism, you should go forward as planned. I'll probably have some specific suggestions and edits to make at that time, but hopefully we can all go forward from there and work out smaller differences as we go along. Wesley 04:29, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My objections are expressed by many parties (incl. me) throughout, and thus form part of the summary of the debate so far. They have not been addressed (check the (disputed) summary and see for yourself). CheeseDreams 00:08, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

CHeeseDreams, this has been a long and wide-ranging debate. If you have specific criticisms of Slr's version, please simply explain them rather than asking us to wade through the massive archive or the massive summary. It would cost you far less time (and would win you far more thanks) if you simply explained what is wrong with Slr's version rather than coyly replying to requests for specific objections in this way. Jwrosenzweig 00:32, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have not read the whole set of archives, but would like to comment on one specific point: the term "fundamentalist" for Christians who believe the Bible to be reliable and authorative is not a good one. Outwith the United States teh term is mostly used as a perjorative. Christians who hold teh Bible as reliable and authorative would usually describe themselves as evangelical if they are Protestant, though many orthodox and roman catholic Christians would hold similar views. None of those would chose willingly the term "fundamentalist"- outwith the USA at least- but woudl reserve this term for the more lunatic fringe. I do understan that the situation and use of the term is different in the USA. Refdoc 01:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

CheeseDreams is, as he/she has pointed out, from the UK, as I am. Evangelicals are something different for us (born-again happy-clappy Christians as against conservative CofE types) and those who insist on the literal truth of the Bible are described by us as fundamentalists. It doesn't necessarily have a pejorative meaning for us, although because the UK is an enlightened European nation, we tend towards feeling fundamentalism is backward, whatever religion, creed or belief indulges in it.Dr Zen 02:23, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Does this have any connection with how or whether the word 'fundamentalist' should be used in the article? If it's only about whether various editors are "fundamentalist," I would again ask that discussion be taken to the various users' talk pages etc., if only to avoid cluttering this page further. Wesley 02:56, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's an attempt to create understanding, Wesley. More understanding and less bullying and we wouldn't have the situation we now do. Dr Zen 23:58, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Even in Zen's short answer it becomes obvious that "fundamentalism" is something "negative" one "indulges" in, unless one is "enlightened" according to his POV. Which kind of proves my point. The Term fundamentalist does neither describe well about whom the article is talking, (traditional/orthodox believing Christians of various denominations, Evangelicals, Roman Catholics, Greek/Russian Orthodox, pentecostals etc etc + it is meant (and causes) offense. So it should not be here. Refdoc 08:25, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I wasn't pretending it was anything other than my POV. However, those who believe the Bible is a fine source of evidence for the historicity of Jesus most certainly fit that bill. Dr Zen 23:58, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I see that the opening paragraph does use the word, so it is worth discussing here. Ok. In the U.S. at least, Protestant fundamentalism is a specific movement whose hallmark is generally believing in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, generally believing that every word should be taken literally and presumed to be accurate. "Evangelicals" generally prefer the word "infallible," meaning the Bible is true and authoritative, but not that every word must be taken literally. Both typically add some caveats about it being true "as found in its original manuscripts", allowing for human scribal errors after its initial allegedly divine inspiration. So, with this understanding, "fundamentalist" is too narrow and specific a term to describe people that think the gospels are generally reliable as historical records, though there intent was primarily theological and they may therefore contain minor factual discrepancies of little consequence. An example would be the difference in wording on the placard affixed to Jesus' cross; the wording may vary from gospel to gospel, but all agree there was such a sign and agree as to the general content of what it said, as one might expect if the gospel writers consulted witnesses a decade or three after the event. The usage with intent to offend that Refdoc noted is another reason to avoid the term. Wesley 17:45, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Exactly, what I meant to say, only much clearer. Thanks Wesley. Refdoc 18:07, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely unreal. There really is no way past the imposition of this POV. Dr Zen 23:58, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It appears that a week has gone by since Jwrosenzweig asked whether there were specific objections to Slr's version and approach. Are there any? I'd hate to be presumptuous. Wesley 03:03, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Some people, especially fundamentalist Christians, take the Gospels to be a literal and accurate account of Jesus' life; - Most traditional believing Christians irrespective of their denomination will take the Gospels to be a reliable account of Jesus' life. Refdoc 18:12, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

But do you not see the word "literal"? Dr Zen 23:58, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I do indeed, But "reliable" is a better choice as it does encompass a much larger group - as described.

The aim of an NPOV article is to cover all views, not necessarily only those held by the greatest number. So you should add what you want to see, not simply replace the accurate sentence that is already there. I don't have the faintest idea what a "traditional believing" Christian is (mostly because I can't imagine what a "nonbelieving Christian" would be -- seems like a contradiction in terms to me: you can hardly be a Christian if you don't believe in Christ). My experience of Christians, which is fairly broad, having been raised as one, attending Sunday School and the like, is that most Christians take the gospels to be the story of Jesus's life and do not enquire too closely into their historicity (and see what I say below). I've never found most Christians to be doctrinaire about it -- as I say, it's only the fundamentalists who insist that it is even important that the gospels or any other parts of the Bible are literally true.

In any case, "reliable" is an awful word. Most Christians, it seems to me, will be aware of the contradictions among the gospels, and will consider them to be rather unreliable accounts of an actual event, told long after that event happened. I credit most Christians with the ability to understand that accounts of a thing written decades after it happened are not necessarily "reliable". Dr Zen 01:06, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am quite aware of NPOV. "Reliable" is a good term as it does not emphasize literal truth, but a general "trustworthiness" - similar to e.g. witness accounts in court, witnesses with each their own POV, but reliable nevertheless."traditional" - I agree it might not the best choice of words, but I do not find something better which describes the many, many christians of all different denominations who very much rely on the Gospels in their daily lives as being truthful and trustworthy, without getting all worked up about one particular way of reading it - something implied by 'fundamentalist'. "evangelical" it ain't as there are many catholics, copts, greek orthodox whatever, in that category, 'orthodox' is sometimes used with small 'o', but has other difficulties. ' conservative' implies political 'conservativeness' which is wrong. So, please, show me something better than "traditional believing" . Refdoc 09:26, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This has been a very long discussion over what should be an easy issue. Some Christians take the Bible literally; others do not. The first paragraph refers to the first group. What should we call them? I see no problem with getting rid of "fundamentalist" if this is not how Christians themselves identify the group. We need the accurate identification. Is "Many orthodox Christians ..." accurate? Or can Wesley and Refdoc suggest another term? By the way, I see no problem with adding "reliable" but I do think "literal" should stay, if only because one thing that does characterize critical scholars is that they do not take the Bible literally. Slrubenstein

I agree with Refdoc that 'reliable' is a much better word that would encompass a much larger group of Christians. The set of Christians who would describe themselves as fundamentalist and advocate a literal reading of the Bible is frankly rather narrow, at least from my perspective in the U.S. 'Traditional believing' to me means they believe the tradition that was handed to them for the most part, without attempting a new reformation or revolution of doctrine along the lines of someone like John Shelby Spong for instance, who says the Protestant Reformation didn't go nearly far enough. 'Traditional believing' also is not terribly specific as to denomination beyond what I just said; therefore it seems like a better term to use here. I think that keeping the word 'literal' potentially sets up a straw man argument. Wesley 18:38, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Wesley! Refdoc 21:56, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And you wonder why CheeseDreams describes you as a cabal of "fundamentalists"? You slap each other on the backs, all agreeing that your POV is the best thing to use in the article, and that to put any other in would set up "a straw man argument". "Traditional believing" doesn't even mean a thing to me. It's probably a buzzword. Wesley's explanation of it doesn't make much sense. Most believers in most religions could be described as holding the beliefs that are traditional among the sect they belong to. Most Moslems would believe what their fathers believed etc. This has nothing to do, though, with literalist readings of the Bible, which it seems to me are innovatory and not traditional. This is particularly so in the UK, where there is a clash in the established church between traditionalists, who are willing to accept that a lot of the Bible is allegorical or needs interpreting, and what you might call the evangelicals, who are not. The narrow interpretation of the Bible is innovative not at all "traditional".

You didn't even bother to address my discussion of "reliable". I'm not surprised. You know as well as I do that what I said is quite true. Most Christians are perfectly able to accept that the accounts in the Bible of Jesus's life are actually unreliable (though not many might believe that they weren't made in good faith -- although I saw an interesting show on TV the other night that suggested, for example, that the story about carrying Jesus to Egypt to escape Herod's wrath might have been interpolated to create a parallel with Moses), because they can clearly see that they do not describe the same events the same way. They have far more of the character of memoirs, which are not generally taken to be reliable, than of reportage. Well, no surprise. Most Christians are also aware that they probably weren't written at the time. Dr Zen 00:53, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What it is that is wrong with Slrubenstein's version (and why FT2s is better)

Terminology

The area should be called "Palestine"or better still "Roman Palestine"

Palestine is the only term covering the whole area

When talking about the whjole area, the article does this. When talking about parts of the area (e.g. Judea, or Bethlehem) it is more specific. Slrubenstein

"pharisees were considered living saints" is not accurate or appropriate "at the time of Christ" (and similar) is an inappropriate phrase, "at this time" being an appropriate replacement for it

How on earth is this a problem with "my" version? Slrubenstein

I could see replacing this with "at the time of Jesus" to be more neutral, but otherwise doesn't seem to be a problem Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You are kidding, Wesley, surely? "At the time of Jesus" is not at all neutral. It implies the existence of Jesus. "At the time when Jesus is supposed to have lived" would be more neutral. "At this time" is a good shorthand version. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Methodology

There are too many citations

Citing makes the text unapproachable to a general reader

How many is too many? Slrubenstein

Citing is appropriate for verifiability, and to let the reader know where they can find more information. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It is us who does the verifying, not the reader! The idea of an encyclopaedia is that it is authoritative and can be trusted, not that you have to go check everything that it says. Many of the cites should be here on the talk page, not littering the article.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Gospels are not prime historic source for this period

Again, how is this a criticism of "my" version, which relies on other historical sources? Slrubenstein

At any rate, surely the Gospels are a principal historical source for the period in their way. Obviously, if you want, say, a political history of the Jews in the Roman world, you'd read Josephus, and obviously one must look to Roman historians, archaeology, and then there's the epistles and the Book of Revelation, and the Mishna, and so on and so forth, but surely the Gospels are one of the principal primary sources on the Jews in the 1st century AD, even if it isn't reliable as literal history. Or am I missing something? john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You are definitely missing something. The Gospels are not a reliable historical source, full stop, any more than Genesis is a reliable biology text. They can be compared with Hard Times, if you like, although it has to be said, Dickens was describing his own time, not that of his grandfather.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Josephus is considered by scholars a significantly more reliable source about the period. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Many people find the historiography of the gospels as highly dubious

Which scholars of the NT or Jewish history on late Antiquity or Early Christianity believe this? Slrubenstein

Further, what on earth does this mean? What is the "historiography" of the Gospels? How is it dubious? Does CD actually know what "historiography" means? john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What did that piece of rudeness serve? You know what CD meant. This area is often called that and you're simply showing your ignorance in this rank incivility. Have a look at this as an example. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I know what historiography means. There is even an article about it. Does anyone else using the term here? CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Citations should (if they are going to appear at all) not just be from Christians or the west.

There are Jews, Muslims, Talmud Scholars, historians, archaeologists, and many others

How is this a criticism of "my" version? Slrubenstein

The answer to this is to add other sources. This was CheeseDreams' answer when discussing sources in some of the recently added Pauline epistles articles, where cited sources are primarily ranging from non-Christian to openly anti-Christian. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Mishnah existed in oral form before 200AD

and the Gospels existed in oral form before they were written. Do you really want to push back the dates of both? Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And the remarkably similar myths of Horus, Dionysus, and Mithras, existed in oral form, among many many more people (having significantly more adherants at the time).

Remember how many Jews there were, and how many original Christians. There were far more Jews to remember the Mishnah, than Christians to remember their story. Thus the Mishnah has higher chance of surviving accurately. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What is your evidence for the Gospels' existing before they were written? Do you have a contemporary source that notes their dissemination? Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jesus and the Article(s)

This is about background not Jesus. It says so in the title.

The article should be about the background to 1st Century Roman Palestine with asides if something is needed to understand Jesus' life

You are misconstruing the discussion and the nature of the article. This article is specifically in reference to Jesus. Slrubenstein

Yada yada yada. We've been through this before. If the article is not going to mention Jesus, it is astonishingly POV to have it at this location. To title an article on the general history of 1st century AD Roman Palestine (or Judaea, or whatever) "Cultural and historical background of Jesus" implies that the only reason to look at the history of 1st century AD Roman Palestine is as a background to Jesus. Clearly this is ridiculous. For this article to be an NPOV background of Jesus, it has to contextualize the background with discussion of Jesus. Otherwise it's just a POV mess. john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. The article should simply never have existed. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Now, I seem to be the one who originally suggested dropping Jesus from the title for precisely this reason. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It is not about summarising Jesus' life, and cross referencing it to historical and cultural information about 1st Century Roman Palestine

And this is not what Slr's article does, seeing as there's only a small section that explicitly discusses Jesus, and the rest of the article discusses various features of 1st century Judea with occasional references to Jesus. john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This could become a non issue, by removing the "summary of Jesus' life with cross references to background" elsewhere

e.g. Historical reconstruction of the sort of person Jesus would have been

This is about the "background of Jesus". "Background" is meaningless without some "foreground" or point of reference. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The phrase point of reference contains the word point not the phrase bloated large expansive area. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Structure of the article

The historical narrative of Slrubenstein approach is 1 dimensional

it is written as if Christianity is the climax of historical events, which is POV

No, it does not. Why do you think this? It most certainly ode snot make this POV claim, nor does it imply it. Slrubenstein

I think CheeseDreams has a good point here but I'm certainly not going to get involved in discussing it with this editor, who is viciously uncivil.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

style reflects only Christian views of what is important to discuss about the background

Where does my version of the article do this? Slrubenstein

far too much history

How on earth can an article explicitly on "history" have too much history? Slrubenstein

This article is not explicitely on history. The title starts cultural and..... CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Then add some "cultural" information, the other component of the title. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You could take the point, Wesley. CheeseDreams has been asked to point out flaws in the article, so he/she does, and then you attack CD for not putting in cultural information! When he/she does, after his/her idiom, you attack him/her for that too! See how CD can't win with you?Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This article should not just be a historical narrative

The article should be structured into topics - this is an encyclopedia not an essay - e.g.

Political situation (regional rulers, high priests, notable militaristic action)
Religious organizations (major schools, prophets, messianic groups)
Later developments (political control, emergence of more modern Judaism and Christianity)

standard encyclopedia style is a series of topics, not a narrative like an essay or book
journalists consider this approach more approachable for the general reader
organised in line with the article's title which, apart from "Historical" ALSO contains the word "Cultural"

You are wrong Slrubenstein

It's a bit hard to see who is right or wrong in there. The person who suggests it should not be a narrative is correct though. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Encyclopedia articles certainly do not necessarily consist of a series of topics. For instance, a biographical article is essentially a narrative of a person's life, and acts as a mini-biography. An article on World War I will usually provide a narrative of World War I. And so forth. 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's not a "biographical narrative" though. That's the point, right there. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An article on World War I is an article on history. NOT CULTURE NOR BACKGROUND!!!!!. An article on The elizabethan era on the other hand, is not a narrative of events. It will also include sections about costume, food, medicine, housing, culture, theatre, religion, etc. not mixed in to an historical narrative whatsoever. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Historical narrative organization also better lends itself to NPOV, whereas topical structuring runs a greater risk of entrenching one POV in the article's structure. It's easier to agree on a sequence of events and even of general trends, given the historical record. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's rank bullshit. I wish you wouldn't use "POV" and "NPOV" in this way. All articles are selective. Suggesting that it's "POV" to select topics is ridiculous, because it goes without saying that it is. But so is a "historical narrative" because you choose what to include and what to leave out in just the same way. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would like to know what POV you think could possibly be entrenced in the structure supported by FT2 and Amgine? Culture, history, religion, politics. Now what horifically offensive POV does that entrench exactly? CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Slrubenstein's distribution of information is inappropriate to an encyclopedia

"political situation" means who is in charge, and should be seperate to "religious organisation"

This is absurd. It is impossible to discuss the political situation of a place like Judaea without referring to the religious authorities, who held considerable political power. Would you suggest that a discussion of the political situation of the Holy Roman Empire omit any mention of the ecclesiastical states, because these form part of the "religious organisation" instead? john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You clearly missed the point again. Referring to the religious authorities as political entities is one thing; referring to them as religious entities another.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"uprisings" are politics not religion

Not if they are religious uprisings!Slrubenstein

Indeed. Witness the Protestant Reformation for instance, which had strong elements of both politics and religion. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The uprising is a political event, not one intrinsic to the religion. Plenty of Protestants didn't support religious uprisings in favour of Protestantism. E.g. Elizabeth I, who supressed them. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Although seperating politics and religion is a modern thing, so are the audience of the encyclopedia

A modern reader of a history article expects to learn about the past. One thing they need to learn is that politics and religion were not so easily distinguished then. Slrubenstein

Darling reader, this is not a history article. It is about Cultural and .... CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

putting "notable uprisings" and "messiahs" together only makes sense as an essay, not an encyclopedia

Can you explain why, or is this simply dogma? john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Because this is an encyclopedia, a compedium of facts, not a compedium of essays on titles like How Judaism led to Jesus. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps you could have a stab at why you think they should be together, John? Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Introductary Paragraphs

The article should not make assumption of historicity or non-historicity

There is a seperate article for that question.

The following introduction was the result of general consensus discussion, and approved by votes, Slrubenstein's version rode roughshod over it.

The main record of the life of Jesus are the Gospels, in the Christian New Testament. These sources place Jesus in what became Roman Palestine (modern Israel and Palestine) during the early 1st century.

The article Historicity of Jesus covers debates regarding the existence of Jesus, but if so then it is agreed by most Christians and academics who hold this view that it is necessary to understand the cultural and historical background in which Jesus is thought to have lived.

This was a volatile period marked by cultural and political dilemmas. Out of the Roman occupation of Palestine sprang two of the modern world's religions: Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.

there was disagreement, not consensus. Slrubenstein

Well, the introduction above is excellent, NPOV stuff, although not wholly grammatical. I could certainly live without the Biblical scholars' being listed in the first par.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Prior History of Palestine

Stating that in most ancient near-eastern societies sacrifice was the only worship is

derogatory

Why? Slrubenstein

It implies they didn't have complex religions. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It implies they are barbaric. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

POV

Which POV? Slrubenstein

The POV of those who believe that Judaeo-Christianity is superior because it is more complex, one would assume.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

blood libel
offensive

Why? Slrubenstein

not true

Why? Slrubenstein

I thought that 'blood libel' had to do with accusations of human sacrifice, not sacrifice in general. The statement being questioned seems to be highly defensible. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Then defend it. Simply saying "I agree with Slrubenstein" isn't actually a defence as such.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Excessive detail about the "First Temple" Era and the "Second Temple" Era is irrelevant

There is no known source for the 1st Temple period which is not suspect of having political spin
It is not even known from non-Biblical sources if there was a 1st Temple period

The article makes claims that are supported by sholars of history. Why do you want to remove Jewish history from an article on a part of Jewish history? Slrubenstein

Darling reader, this is not about Jewish history, this is about Cultural and historical background..... CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If we eliminate all historical sources that are suspected of having political spin, we wouldn't have very many left at all. Historians are used to trying to identify political and other kinds of spin, and trying to factor that into their interpretations of historical data. Ignoring data one doesn't like is also a kind of spin. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Was Jesus alive in the first temple era? This article, as you keep ramming home, is supposed to be about the background to his life. I agree with CD that this is far too much ancient history. Also, do you mind providing cites from these "sholars" who support your claims? Biblical scholars don't count in this context. They must be archaeologists, nonaligned historians -- IOW, scholars who do not simply cite the Bible as "evidence".Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This article is not "the history of the Jews up until 0AD". It is "Cultural and historical background to Jesus", i.e. the period around 0AD, not the whole of prehistory. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Having a Temple, Torah, Priests, and Scribes, together with having a King ruling by divine right implies a "dual core"

religion supported by monarchy
monarchy supported by religion

Is this an argument or interpretation made by a majore scholar (late antiquity Jewish/early Christian history, critical Biblical studies)? Who? Slrubenstein

Is the "King ruling by divine right" referring to Caesar, or the local king of Judaea/Roman Palestine/whatever? I ask because I think it is clear that the local "king" was supported by Caesar, not by the priests and scribes etc. This argument appears to lack internal cohesion. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's a common enough system, Sl. The Roman Empire itself had a state religion. Wesley, you're way off track and I think just muddying the water. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There does not need to be detailed background to Saducees, Pharisees, Temple, Monarchy, or Torah.

These each have their own seperate articles
This overemphasises religion, in an article also about other aspects of history, and of culture, and of the history of that culture and background.

These could probably be summarized with links to the longer articles, sure. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There ought to be discussion of the Hasmonians

Taking over the priesthood should be mentioned, as should taking over the monarchy
The Hasmonians are not the second kingdom

Right, once again you seem to support Slrubenstein's version over FT2 ... Slrubenstein

Totally disputed. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Herod's reign should be mentioned
There should be mention of forced conversion to Judaism of the Edomites (the Idumeans)

Not sure why these couldn't be added. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Governance

Whether the greeks gave a damn about Judaism or not is irrelevant.

The romans were in charge
This is not an article about the greeks

P.s. the greeks already worshiped a universal God, known officially as the Unknown God.

What the Greeks thought would be relevant from the standpoint of the influence of Hellenism on the region during this time period. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but "Hellenism" and "the Greeks" are not the same thing. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There was a split between hellenized and "traditional" Jews

In the same way there is a split between muslims who wear the burkha, and Jemima Khan

I suppose some historians argue this, although most today do not. What are your sources? Slrubenstein

What are yours? You cannot conceivably be suggesting that there were no hellenised Jews, so are you saying that there were no "traditional" Jews?Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't know many historians who argue Jemima Khan in comparison to burkas. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The middle east is and always has been a "powderkeg"

It forms the bridge between persia, greece, and egypt
Its position between major empires, throughout history, inevitably gives it this status

Good point. Finding a period in history when Palestine was not a "powderkeg" would be difficult. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A discussion of the status of sedition is important

Jews had religious and political tensions with Rome, not class war

It is necessary to understand the Macabees to comprehend how Jews react to Rome

Which is why my version spends time talking about the Maccabees. Slrubenstein

Dear reader, Slrubenstein's version talks about the generations of the Maccabees, not what the important issue is, i.e. why they came about in the first place. Specifically, the Maccabee revolt. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The desire by Jews not to integrate was seen as an affront by Romans

Evidence? Slrubenstein

I had thought the Romans got over it and even gave the Jews permission not to sacrifice to the Roman gods. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Early emporers thrived, later ones were cruel and murdered, which demonstrates that there was more corruption

The second emperor was cruel, the third emperor was cruel and murdered, the fourth emperor was murdered, and the fifth emperor was cruel and a suicide. The sixth, seventh, and eighth emperors were either murdered or suicides after very brief reigns. The ninth and tenth emperors seem to have done well enough, and the eleventh emperor again was both cruel and murdered. It seems to me that both the cruelty and the murder aspects are pretty evident from pretty near the beginning of the empire, including the emperor who reigned at the time when Christ supposedly lived, Tiberius (the 2nd emperor). I recommend watching I, Claudius again if you think the early emperors "thrived". And, of course, the period before Augustus was a period of rather bitter civil war. john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. Corruption was rife in the Republic too, anyway.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So, now, we all agree that the period was seriously corrupt, and cruel, which was the crux of the point. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Religious Groups

There were always 2 sides to Judaism - temple vs. halakhah/prayer

This vastly oversimplifies and distorts Judaism. Slrubenstein

Oh look dear reader, vanity statement, with not a single shred of argument AS TO WHY. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Although Halakha contains ritual, it is specifically prayer-related

What? You are wrong. Slrubenstein

Oh look dear reader, vanity statement, with not a single shred of argument. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Prayer is independant to temple worship (which had to occur 3 times a year)

Temple worship occurred far more often than 3 times a year. Prayer developed in relation to Temple worship. Slrubenstein

Dear reader, this is an attempt to obfuscate facts. Jews were required to attent the temple a minimum of 3 times a year. Abraham prayed to god, but that didn't require a temple. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Temple worship (but not the temple) goes back to 1500-1300BC

Proof? Slrubenstein

An especially odd claim for somebody who also says that there may not have been a First Temple. john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

John, even you can understand that there can be a temple without there being a Temple. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Now, remind me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember the Torah as claiming that Moses and co. set up a temple. On some mountain. The same one that the Samaritans still used. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Halakha goes back orally before it was written down

In Judaism, the priesthood was more administrative than acting as intermediary between Jews and God

e.g. the Sanhedrin

I don't even know what you mean here. Priests offered sacrifices which were a crucial part of how Jews related to God. Slrubenstein

It's clear what CD means. The distinction between RC priests, who are active intermediaries between man and God, and Methodist ministers, who are not, is not lessened any by saying yes, but Methodist ministers still give a sermon. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There was a multi-party system with at least 4 large "schools of thought"

As testified by Josephus
It was not the 2 party system (with minor others) Sadducees vs. Pharisees

Josephus doesn't call them "parties," he calls them "schools,"

Now someone, dear reader seems to have failed to read my quote above which stated "schools of thought". One has to question if this was deliberate, which would be pathetic, or ignorant. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

and says there are three (but later mentions a fourth). SR's version covers all of these. Slrubenstein

Darling reader, Slrubenstein's version implies that there was a 2 party system, with the other "schools of thought" that Josephus mentions as minor. Which is not accurate. Josephus states 3 (plus one) not 2-and-a-small-ignorable-one-over-there-and-an-even-more-ignorable-one. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Essenes developed at virtually the same time as the Pharisees

Wrong. You are ignorant. Slrubenstein

Oh look, dear reader, personal attack, absolutely no counter-argument. Very grown up. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nice, civil discussion as usual. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Sicarii were a fanatical underground militant wing of the Zealots

Wrong. You are ignorant. Slrubenstein

Oh look, dear reader, personal attack, absolutely no counter-argument. Very grown up. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Another reason for believing that Slrubenstein should receive the same punishment, if any, as CD. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Other Messiahs

Other groups who believed in different Messiah figures should be mentioned in detail

Which groups believes in different messiahs? What is your source? Slrubenstein

The article on Messiah references some. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The only opposer when this was voted on (8 supported it) was Slrubenstein

It doesn't matter what the vote was -- we cannot put something in the article if it is false and non-verifiable. Where is the evidence? Slrubenstein

As a non-messianic Jew, Josephus' statement that these were not messiahs is a statement of faith

nethertheless, Josephus still states that other people thought them to be messiahs

Where? Source? Verify your claims. Slrubenstein

You accept the gospels as a source but don't allow Josephus???Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Now, I apologise if this is a silly suggestion, but surely Josephus is a good enough source for Josephus? CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contemporary understanding of the meaning of messiah should be included
It is important to state that kings and priests were anointed
Sabbattai Lev (circa 1400) shows how Jews found "other messiahs" troublesome and offensive

Who was Shabatai Lev? Slrubenstein

According to historic recordc, as a group, Jews at the time

were conservative

Proof? Slrubenstein

were sceptical of radical new interpretations

Proof? Slrubenstein

were disinterested in afterlife/salvation stories

Perhaps. In any event, SR's version doesn't claim otherwise Slrubenstein

were making many original claims

By the way, dear reader, proof of the above is in the historic record. E.g. the Talmud. Odd how that part of my statement seems to have gone unread. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

the articles Mosiach and Messiah explain the understanding of the term

the expectation of a messiah was the expectation of a saviour of Israel

In part, there was more to it. Slrubenstein

Dear reader, this is not true. Someone clearly hasn't even read Mosiach or Messiah. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The phrase "Son of Man" is not always apocalyptic
'Many historians claim that Jesus himself did not claim to be a messiah in any way different to other messiahs.'
many considered the Romans to be the judgement of God

All of this is consistent with SR's version. Slrubenstein

Dear reader, note how Slrubenstein's version frames the above, clearly denegrating the position. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mandaeans first came into existance in the 2nd/3rd centuries BC and later Mandaeans considered John the baptist a messiah

Source for the date? Evidence? Slrubenstein

Here are some possible sources. Apparently, the Mandaeans do claim this and do claim that John the Baptist was one of them. ['http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/johannite.html There's] plenty on the web about it.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

E.g. apollos (as testified by the book of Acts, as still following John AFTER Jesus died)
In addition to others mentioned by other texts
John the baptist was Nazorean

According to whom? Evidence? Slrubenstein

Now, if we are to discount references from the bible, dear reader, then who is John the Baptist at all? CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mandaean was a dialaect at this time
Mandaean is a modern synonym for Nazorean
Mandaeans refer to themselves as Nazorean

Miscellaneous contemporarial details

The Jesus in the temple conversing on the law needs to be put in context

It was fairly standard that young people were able to converse on the law in the Temple
As evidenced by the oral law preserved in the Talmud about expected ages of scholarship of the torah

"X% lived in towns, Y% in villages" is too demographic

most Jews at the time were hard working
in the circumstances of the age, there are not many "slackers" in village life
most Jews at the time were God fearing

Evidence? Slrubenstein

most Jews at the time were in villages
village people are less likely to be hellenised than city people

This misrepresents or distorts (or ignores) what historians mean by "hellenised" Slrubenstein

What do they mean by it in your opinion? If the villagers did not speak Greek, did not follow Greek customs, did not wear Greek clothes and did not pursue Greek arts, in what way can they be said to be "hellenised"?Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Development of later religion

"Later forms of Judaism" followed the Pharisees rather than "Rabbinic Judaism"

As voted for on a 3:1 ratio

Again, it doesn't matter what the vote it -- the article has to be accurate and verifiable. After the destruction of the Temple Rabbinic Judaism emerged. Slrubenstein

You say so. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Later forms is much more accurate. It is guaranteed to be true. Whatever the later forms were. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Discussion of the subsequent development of Christianity and how it connected to the gentiles belongs elsewhere not here

This is about background, not consequences

Anything later than bar Kochba is irrelevant

This is not an article about the historiography of the Gospels or otherwise

The non-Jewishness of Christianity

Early Christianity was Jewish, although most Rabbis considered them Jewish seperatists. Slrubenstein

Darling reader, Saint Paul was SO Jewish, so much so that he grew up in and was proud of his birthplace, Tarsus, which was the most non-Jewish place in the whole of the meditteranean world. So much so that he said that the Mosaic Law was superseeded. So much so that he disliked rituals. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Jewish revolt was about seeking political and religious freedom vs. Romans.

It was not class war
Jews at the time were under intense pressure from Rome
The Macabbee revolt indicates that Jews violently do not like their sense of identity threatened

Source? Slrubenstein

As a group, Jews at the time tended to polarise under pressure.

Proof? Slrubenstein

As a group, Jews at the time tended to be protective of their national identity

Proof? Slrubenstein

Darling reader, it is unfortunate that I must repeat a point made earlier

It is necessary to understand the maccabees to understand the Jewish reaction to Rome

Now, can anyone remember how the Jews reacted under the Macabbee revolt? CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The ideas of how Romans treated early Christians in comparison to Jews is predominantly later Christian propaganda

There is absolutely no historical evidence (aside from Christian claims) that Nero burnt rome and blamed it on Christians

The article doesn't claim that he did. Slrubenstein

I though the "blamed it on Christians" bit is pretty clearly in Tacitus (Annals 15.44.2-4). Is Tacitus now a Christian? Or was this (rather unflaterring) comment about Christians interpellated by later Christian writers? Whether or not Nero burned Rome seems to remain an open question - there is no particular evidence, so far as I am aware, that he did, but those that say he might have are not necessarily doing so out of Christian apologetics. john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to the whims of writers. I was referring to archaeological evidence, which would leave a distinct burn line in absolutely all the deposits from that period in Rome, especially as Rome was quite a large set of buildings, which would leave a lot of burnt remains. This is not only not the case, but there is absolutely no evidence of any burn line from this period whatsoever. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Note how suspicious the argument "but he built it back in 3 days" is. You might as well say that Napolean existed.

Misspelling Napoleon doesn't inspire confidence, CD. john k 05:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's neither here nor there to CD's point, which is a good one. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Christians deliberately shifted away from Jewish law to make themselves disassociated with the Jews Your source? Slrubenstein

or were gnostic, thus didn't support ritual
The jews were becoming politically dangerous due to rebellion against Rome

Judaism's restrictive practices prevented non-Jews from converting to it or similar religion False. And ignorant. Slrubenstein

Can you give numbers of converts around this time? Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Its odd, isn't it, how Judaism remained in Palestine, and never spread outside it, unlike you would expect if Judaism didn't dissuade non-Jews from converting. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Christianity being easier to digest is POV
it is logical that dropping more Jewish traditions made Christian beliefs more palatable
Replacing halakhah by pure faith instantly made Christianity more acceptable to non-Jews

Proof? Boyarin argues that it made it more meaningful to many Jews. Slrubenstein

Proof? I can cite authors showing that early Christians kept many Jewish practices and rituals, in many cases altering them somehow instead of discarding them. For instance, the Didache tells Christians to continue fasting twice a week, but not on the same days as the Jews. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Didache was dismissed as non-Canonical by the church. That should tell you how they felt about it. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's one ritual. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

According to the evidence (which most Christians tend not to be aware of), i.e. most scholars think, either

Ebionites were the original christians; or

Proof? Slrubenstein

Gnostics were the original christians; or

Proof Slrubenstein

Essenes were the original christians

Proof? Slrubenstein

much of the evidence points to the Ebionites being a sect of the Essenes

Gnosticism pre-dates Christianity by most accounts; some gnostics incorporated bits of Christianity leading to much modern confusion. The others are red herrings since they mention Jesus' writings, having little connection with the apostles. Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think CD's point is that gnosticism predates Christianity, Wesley, thence the wording "were the original Christians". Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the Ebionites have an extremely huge conection to the Apostles. The Jerusalem council (the foundation church which the apostles set up) was based, oddly enough, in Jerusalem. In the late 2nd/early 3rd century, a search party for them was sent out by the official Christian church (i.e. Irenaeus and co.) to see if they had missed out any teachings, or objects. All the search party found in Jerusalem were the Ebionites, which disturbed them. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also note that Jesus' rabbinical teachings match the Essenes remarkably, the apostles could very easily be a group of Essenes. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The early Christians were often at odds with groups they considered heretical

Historians think the situation was "Iranaeus, Eusebius and Co." vs. "Anyone who disagreed with Iranaeus, Eusebius and Co."

CheeseDreams 21:07, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

All of the comments by CheeseDreams are evidence of three things.

It looks like she did not read the protected ("my") version of the article very carefully, because many of the things she claims I do wrong, I do not actually do.

Okay.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You should check the history of this talk page very carefully. You will see that most of claims outlined above are not by me, and in fact are by FT2 or by Amgine. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Although she often makes strong assertions of fact, she never verifies them. Some people (FT2, Pedant) trust her claims and have suggested that she and I really agree about much. FT2 has told me that he has not done much research in this time-period, and I suspect that Pedant (with all due respect) hasn't either -- because if they had, they would not trust her so easily. Since I have done a fair amount of research on this time period, I know that she is wrong about many things -- indeed, wrong about many things that someone who just took an introductory level college course would know.

I don't see much sign of your being righter or wronger. I see lots of your asserting that you are. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Based on the preceeding two points, it seems to me that whatever position I take, CheeseDreams simply takes the direct opposite. I know that she held biased and misinformed views before she and I began discussing this article, but it seems to me that she now adopts as her own -- and vociferously argues for -- ignorant and false views solely as a way of arguing with me.

Forget her bias, forget her illogic, forget her inability to take criticism or to learn from others -- forget all these things and one truth remains: she is ignorant of this subject and has nothing to offer here. Slrubenstein 18:52, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I look forward to the day this unpleasant editor receives his due punishment for this pisspoor attitude. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I reiterate that Slrubenstein should read the arrogance and vanity articles. CheeseDreams 15:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

CheeseDreams, thank you for listing your objections here. I have commented above, but to keep it brief, I still think SLR's version is the better one for going forward. At least some of CheeseDreams' suggestions and changes could and perhaps should be incorporated into it, as I mentioned above. Other comments from other editors? Wesley 22:58, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I entirely disagree with Wesley. We should proceed with FT2's version, but incorporate what is good of the two others' views. Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A note to the curious

Archives

The next move

The article that was FT2s version

The article that was Slrubensteins version

An alternative version

response to 'moving on'

What it is that is wrong with Slrubenstein's version (and why FT2s is better)