Talk:Ogre

This is such a general term, stretching back hundreds of years. Do we really need to use a picture of Shrek? I mean, I love the film, but using a contemporary fictional character to describe an ancient myth seems a little bizarre.--64.9.55.232 14:13, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Another picture would be welcome. Just using what we have, I assume. Jake 19:43, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But that section of the article was about ogres in modern fiction, and I think a picture of Shrek belongs there. CS

This section isn't very convincing. It reads like its from the D&D monster manual I used as a kid. The connection with trolls and other such seems to be pure speculation and editorializing. How about some actual references to the usage of the word "ogre" in literature or documented myth? What culture / mythology is this term really from? What basis do we have for relating it to trolls or other such mythical creatures of other countries other than it being some vague kind of evil bestial humanoid (maybe speculation trying to interconnecting such mythical beings from various cultures should be a seperate article).

Beautiful Ogres?

In a recent discussion with someone over ogres (long story involving National Novel Writing Month), I remembered that I've seen ogres portrayed at least once as being heartbreakingly perfectly beautiful creatures (Dragonlance, primarily the short story where Raistlin runs into one), and at least two times where they were given a beautifully hypnotic voice (Ella Enchanted and the Tamora Pierce books), although I don't remember the appearance. Is there a basis in legend for this? I haven't turned anything up with a quick googling, but that never really means much given how much loose information there is out there and how Google tends to bring up the most popular answers only. -Fuzzy 21:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Addition to Piers Anthony section

I think it was The Color of Her Panties where it was established that ogres in Xanth choose to rhyme rather than having it be part of their nature, and that they typically drop the rhymes when out of the public eye. Okra Ogre pointed it out IIRC. Added a spoiler tag because really, it's not that common of information until fairly late in the series. -Fuzzy 14:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but, in another one they established that people only _hear_ ogres as rhyming, when in actuality they aren't, as a kind of.. they said it was a person's prejudices influencing what they hear... and that if you didn't expect them to rhyme, they wouldn't. Definite continuity gaffe, which Xanth is unfortunately frought with.

Removal of Oni notices

The latest edit, by an IP address, removed all mention of the Oni as well as a picture of one. I'm going to revert it for now, but I am of course interested in people's feedback.

Disambiguation and Primary Definition

Since there already exists a disambiguation page, I would like to remove all mention of non-mythical ogres in this article, save for a broad mentioning of its metaphorical usage. I would also like to revamp the the main definition section, adding more academic content and moving some of the current content to subsections like Ogres in Various Cultures or Ogres in Various Fairy Tales. Whatever seems most appropriate. Does anyone foresee a problem with this? Thank you! MarkBuckles 08:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I support cleaning up the page and moving the pop culture/gaming refs to the dab page, with a possible general mention on this page. If you feel the edits may be contentious, perhaps you can post a draft of the proposed edits on a subpage before adding them to the article? --Muchness 09:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have created a new version of this page at Ogre/Revision. I've added a broader definition referenced from Britannica and reworked the entire page. Mythology and folklore references now have their own section. Ogres in modern games is reduced to a comment and a reference to the other extensive pages on the subject. Ogre as title or name is removed. The discussion of its metaphorically usage is maintained in the main article body and the other items cited all have other pages linked from the disambiguation page. I've added some more scholarly titles to the list of ogres in modern fiction, as well as a references section. Please let me know what you think. We can revise it and then post the new page. --MarkBuckles 15:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to have a new main picture, possibly from a painting, rather than a picture of a Japanese oni. Thoughts? MarkBuckles 15:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Revamped page

Hearing no dissent, I'll go ahead and post the new page. New pic to come as well. -MarkBuckles 15:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You've done an excellent job of reorganizing and improving the page; however, I'm concerned that the current wording of the lead section is too close to the Britannica article, to the point that it's bordering on copyright violation. For reference:

EB: Ogre feminine ogress a hideous giant represented in fairy tales and folklore as feeding on human beings.
WP: An ogre (feminine: ogress) is a hideous and gigantic monster often represented in fairy tales and folklore as feeding on human beings.

EB: The word gained popularity from its use in the late 17th century by Charles Perrault, the author of Contes de ma mère l'oye (Tales of Mother Goose).
WP: The word gained popularity from its use in the late 17th century by Charles Perrault, the author of Contes de ma mère l'oye (Tales of Mother Goose).

EB: Since then, ogres have appeared in many works, including “Tom Thumb”; “Hansel and Gretel,” where the witch is a type of ogre because she intends to eat the children; and “Little Red Riding Hood,” where the wolf resembles an ogre.
WP: Since then, ogres have appeared in many works of literature, including Tom Thumb; Hansel and Gretel where the witch is a type of ogre because she intends to eat the children; and Little Red Riding Hood, where the wolf resembles an ogre.

EB: The Cyclops of myth and heroic literature who devours humans is a form of ogre.
WP: The Cyclops of myth and heroic literature who devours humans is a form of ogre.

I think we need to reword the lead so that doesn't reproduce passages from the EB article word-for-word, and consider removing the claim that the witch, the wolf and the cyclops are types of ogre (which strikes me as original research on EB's part). --Muchness 16:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I'm still looking into finding some more actual scholarly articles on ogres. Let me know if you know of anything. And you may be right about the original research too. I had never heard of that particular interpretation before although the eating humans part seems to be fairly standard. Will revamp this more soon. Let me see if I can reword those particular sections for the time being. -MarkBuckles 19:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've trimmed the lead. The Charles Perrault section may not be necessary there at all since it's covered in etymology, unless someone thinks otherwise. I've also cut out the part about wolves and witches being forms of ogres, at least until such time as I find another source which corroborates that reading. The opening sentence is still very similar, though it does capture the essence. Should we change that too? -MarkBuckles 19:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Curupira removal

I don't see how the curupira is in any way related to the ogre. They have nothing in common aside from being mythical creatures. I think it should be removed.

Ogres around the world

The short passage on ogres in Carol Rose's book gives the following list of ogres in other cultures:

Atcen of the Montagnais Native Canadians
Dzoavits of the Shoshone Native American People
Skatene of the Choctaw Native American People
Drake of the Gypsy community of the Balkan states
Kinderfresser in the folklore of Germany
the Trolls of Scandinavia
the Gruagach of Scotland
Miodhchaoin in the Celtic legends of Ireland
Tom Dockin in the folklore of England
Bobalicón in the folklore of Spain
Ravagio and Tourmentine in the literature of France
Sasabonsam in the legends of the Tschwi and Ashanti people of West Africa
Kojin in the legends of Japan

I don't know how this should be incorporated into the article. I'm thinking there should be separate sections for the European ogre and ogres in other cultures. Also, perhaps a small bit of information could be found on each of these other ogres, so we're not just copying Rose's list. I don't have time to do this, as I have another article I need to be working on. I do however plan to create a new image for this page sometime soon :-) Also, I think that "Ogres in modern fiction" and "Ogres in modern games" should be subsections for an "Ogres in pop culture section." Hope this info is helpful! ~ Sarabi1701 15:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]