Talk:North Macedonia–NATO relations

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Pics in article

There are two pics. They are of graffiti in Ohrid. Recent removals are on reasons based on wp:idontlikeit (i.e: "This is anti-nato propaganda. And makes the article not neutral" [1]) more then anything else. There is a segment of the population that opposes NATO. That has fluctuated over the years. The data in the article on support numbers is from 2008. No editor has bothered to put more current numbers about support/opposition in the article and also how that is reflected among the two large communities of Macedonians and Albanians in the country. I don't see why pictures of the sort that has a view about NATO from the country reflected as graffiti should not be in the article. The pictures where taken in Ohrid and these pieces of text where in prominent locations. If people have pictures of pro-NATO sentiment, they are more then welcome to place pictures, etc.Resnjari (talk) 16:09, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They are not based on wp:idontlikeit, that's your opnion, which is incorrect. Grafiti of some anti-Nato expression has nothing to do with the main article and is just propaganda from the anti-Nato camp. They shouldn't be in the article cause they don't contribute anything, someone making graffiti doesn't make it "majority support for anti-nato", provide sources and write in the text about it, but some graffiti pictures are not relevant. Ljuvlig (talk) 17:16, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They do, they reflect a view and give a visual of that view. There is opposition to NATO in the country and its not a clear cut one way street of support.Resnjari (talk) 17:30, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The topic of the article has two main views: One of the supporters of NATO in Macedonia and one of those Macedonians who oppose NATO. Both deserve pics. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:23, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Photos are always a subjective element of Wikipedia articles, but their selection should probably compliment the prose they're included with. These images were included in the section "Negotiation progress" next to a table, which is why I might suggest they're not the best choice. If we had a prose section discussing opposition to NATO membership, then they would be an appropriate illustration. If we do want an image here, I think one of the options in Commons:Category:Prespes agreement might work, since that's directly related to the dates in the table. Or I know on similar articles, we've used images of joint military exercizes, and there are a number of options in Commons:Category:Krivolak (Army Training Area)-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 15:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If its data on support and opposition that needs to be expanded, that's fine. The pics reflect a view that does exist in the country. There is opposition to NATO and though it may not be the overall majority opinion (depending on the year and geopolitical situation) in the country, it exists among a sizable part of the population.Resnjari (talk) 15:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hear that, and maybe if/when a "Public opinion" section is written, or the page expands into a fuller Macedonia–NATO relations article, they would be more appropriate. I also want to mention that including two contrary viewpoints next to each other is not actually how neutrality works on Wikipedia, so I'm not sure the idea of adding an "pro" image is a good fix.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 15:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Whether this article gets it name changed to something else after Macedonia becomes a member, the overall issue about that over the years that has existed is two main opinions about NATO in the country, one in support and one in opposition. I don't about pics that exist about being in favour in the wiki commons. If someone sees something and or is in the country and takes a photo, that's good they can add for here. But there are pics reflecting a view of opposition and that should be in the article. I'm going to write and expand the public opinion section and re add t he pics as were. Best.Resnjari (talk) 16:00, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for working on that section, I think its generally a fine addition to the page. One other note, I'd suggest choosing just one of those images to use. Template:Multiple image is discouraged except when absolutely necessary due to formatting issues it can cause some readers, and as part of a larger preference against image galleries. Thanks-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 17:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have accessed the article through my mobile phone, it comes out ok with the images. I can split the images into two seperate ones for the section (one being left and the other right). Two images don't make a gallery. The policy refers to many images present in a article and it causing issues. Anyway both images give context to the section.Resnjari (talk) 17:52, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One image is sufficent to illustrate a section like this. Thanks.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 22:02, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There really is no issue with having two images in the article. I don't see a problem with it or for that matter the removal of the captions. Not everyone can read Macedonian or the Cyrillic alphabet. Please, no wp:idontlikeit.Resnjari (talk) 13:27, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop edit warring. You are both arguably in violation of WP:3RR. Achieve concensus and then take action. If you cannot reach a concensus, submit a request for comment. --Michail (blah) 13:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, the stable version as pics have been there a while. As for edit warring claims i added content that was separate from the pics issue. No one contested those additions.Resnjari (talk) 13:59, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I went with one of the images as the graffiti is more visible than the other for the page and size. Caption for the picture should stay. I can read and write in Macedonian, but most people who read the article cannot.Resnjari (talk) 14:19, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, @Michail, i thought that you where a new editor but instead you have been around a long while and only changed their signature so that the signature is confusingly different from the user name. Please have a read of WP:SIGPROB. It says Signatures that link to, but do not display, the user's username (for example by signing with a nickname, as in [[User:Example|User:Nickname]] or [[User:Example|Nickname]]) can be confusing for editors (particularly newcomers). The actual username always appears in the page history, so using just the nickname on the relevant talk page can make your signed comments appear to be from a different person. Alternatives include changing your username and including your account name in addition to the username, e.g. in the form [[User:Example|User:Example]]/Nickname.Resnjari (talk) 14:06, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added the text from this image both as ALT Text and in the file description, so it'll be available if a reader wants to know more by hovering or clicking on the image. And as an editor who also signs with what they want to be called, rather than their full username, please feel free to sign however you like here Michail, you're absolutely correct about consensus then action when edits are disputed.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 16:16, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually on signatures that can be confusing to other editors whether someone is new or an old hand if its different from the active username. Hence i cited WP:SIGPROB.Resnjari (talk) 17:37, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does it strike nobody else as bizarre to have an image of some random anti-NATO scribble in a section that only talks about strong pro-NATO sentiment in the country from both officials and public opinion? Do we really need to give equal weight to the opinion of a single anonymous hoodlum? Just because the graffiti exists doesn't mean it bears including in an encyclopedia article. 199.247.42.202 (talk) 13:01, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anti NATO sentiment is real in Macedonia and has at times been the dominant view toward the military alliance by the public of which a sizable part of the population still is of that opinion (that is accounted for via RS in the article). The political elite of the country is a small group and the article does not only encompass them but views from the masses as well. The image reflects the Anti-NATO view as a visual. I see no issue with it being in the article.Resnjari (talk) 13:43, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's real according to you in your head, providing sources instead of talking nonsense about this. It's cause you want it to be that way, for all I know you could of done that graffiti, some graffiti of allegedly anti-Nato needs sources not some random graffiti.Ljuvlig (talk) 08:46, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]