User talk:Lazer-kitty

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Welcome!

Hello, Lazer-kitty, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome!
SSSB (talk) 14:20, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Reply

Sorry, but regardless of how much time anyone puts into any articles, nobody owns them. You also need to cut the personal attacks and assume good faith. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 15:35, 2 March 2020 (UTC) Example: I went through Wikiproject:NASCAR in order to get those awful, often vandal-targets of cluttered number lists from the infoboxes (and since I derived the IndyCar box from the NASCAR box myself, it applied to that as well) removed. I agree that the lists of drivers should go, but the footnotes are not in any way cluttered. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 15:39, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@GhostOfDanGurney: I assume good faith until it is proven I shouldn't; lazily reverting my contributions without any discussion suggests you are not operating in good faith, and instead only want to hammer through your own personal preferences. You talk about personal attacks when you're the one of accusing me of acting like I "own" a page; this a blatant lie. All I am trying to do is contribute to Wikipedia without being harassed. You started this, you are the one who went out of your way to harass me. I will not hold any ill will against you if you simply stop. Your next actions will speak volumes about yourself. Stop disruptively reverting my edits and simply open a discussion. It's not hard. But I will not be bullied into accepting your way. Lazer-kitty (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@GhostOfDanGurney: All you had to do was post on my talk page, or the article talk page, or even ping me at the WikiProject talk page, and raise your concerns regarding these edits and we could discuss them productively. Instead your instinct was simply to revert them and erase my contributions. That's unacceptable. Especially given that I made these edits weeks and weeks ago, and YOU even edited this page after I made them, only to suddenly later change your mind. Again - that's fine, you have an right to an opinion, BUT EXPRESS IT PRODUCTIVELY. DON'T JUST ERASE MY CONTRIBUTIONS! Lazer-kitty (talk) 15:55, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@Lazer-kitty: Actually GhostOfDanGurney followed the correct protocal set out in WP:BRD. You made a bold edit, it was reverted, it is on you to go to the talk page to justify that edit. The article maintains its status quo (before you made your edits) until the discussion reaches a stage where it agrees with you
SSSB (talk) 16:21, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@SSSB: Those edits were there for weeks and weeks AND GhostOfDanGurney contributed to the page after I made those edits, seemingly without a problem. If he has a problem with those edits now then I would be glad to productively discuss them, but I will not have my contributions erased and I will not be personally attacked by a bully insistent on silencing me. If you want me to go away, please simply state that and I will gladly leave. Otherwise you can treat me with a modicum of respect and we can move forward that way. Up to you.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be more worthwhile to simply copy articles I care about into my sandbox and improve them there, rather than waste my time dealing with the pointless bureaucratic infighting of such a needlessly hateful site. Lazer-kitty (talk) 16:35, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realise that the initial edits were made a long time ago. That changes things but only a little. If you want my advice: stop edit warring, leave the article in whatever state it's in and start a discussion on the talk page (pinging GhostofDanGurney to it) explaining your changes. Whose responsibility it is to start a discussion is secondary to a discussion starting or the state of the article during the discussion.

Also try to cut down the aggression, it means that disagreements are not going to escalate as quickly.
SSSB (talk) 17:01, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate that I got too heated but it is extremely frustrating to try to contribute here with users who simply revert things they don't like, sometimes weeks after those changes have been made, and then insist they're in the right. Talk pages exist for a reason and it's incredibly easy to show fellow editors a tiny bit of respect and simply ask them to explain their changes or whatever before you blindly erase their contributions. But I guess that undo button is just a little bit easier. Lazer-kitty (talk) 17:08, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Happens to me, too. That doesn't mean I cast aspersions and accuse them of trying to bully or silence me. I reverted two minor deletions out of a host of other changes and that's your response? That doesn't exactly encourage one to engage with you. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 18:26, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@GhostOfDanGurney: I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm simply observing. And now I just observed you yet again revert the page and erase my contributions in favor of participating in productive discussions. You are indisputably a bully and I will not stop stating that fact until you stop bullying me and stop reverting the page. From the beginning the onus has been on you to behave respectfully and you have repeatedly refused to.

I also don't appreciate that you wrote "Per SSSB" in your revert comments even though continuing to revert the page is explicitly not what SSSB suggested. Lazer-kitty (talk) 18:30, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm reverting to this [1] version by the IP @209.171.88.11:. You started the reverting, and you are also violating the 3-revert rule in addition to continuing your aspersion casting. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 18:43, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Not acceptable. I'm reverting to the correct version and you will discuss from there. Don't really care about 3RR right now, more than willing to take the punishment for that if it means standing up to your abuse. Lazer-kitty (talk) 19:28, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Please explain how I'm abusing anything right now? Your continued assumption of bad faith makes me not want to discuss anything with you right now. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 19:43, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

You continue to revert the page. And again, I am not assuming bad faith, I am observing it. Lazer-kitty (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Edit warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Arrow McLaren SP; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.
SSSB (talk) 19:34, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@SSSB: I know you have to do this and I know there are consequences for edit warring but I simply will not stop reverting the page until GhostOfDanGurney stops reverting it himself and simply discusses why he disagrees with my changes. I am not going to let his bullying win. Lazer-kitty (talk) 19:44, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 19:55, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

March 2020

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 72 hours for personal attacks and edit warring. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 23:27, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

• FYI, the standard block for a 3RR violation is 24 hours. This block was aggravated by the fact that you stated your intent to keep edit warring for the purpose of "standing up to" a user, which is disruption to prove a point, and for repeated personal attacks. When you get into a dispute, comment on content, not contributors, and always abide by WP:BRD. There is no "right" side in an edit war, so you can't just keep reverting because you feel you're in the right. If you make any edit that gets reverted, it is on you to take it to the talk page and explain why you feel your edit should be made, and pursue dispute resolution if necessary. If you follow this advice, this will be the last time you run into this unfortunate situation. Best, ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 07:51, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Swarm: Hi Swarm. I just want to point out that GhostOfDanGurney has oddly stopped discussing this issue now that I am blocked. Do you think it's maybe because he's not a good faith editor, and instead just trying to hammer through what he wants, which he now thinks he has won? I don't dispute your punishment but I think admins like yourself need to be more open minded to the bad faith way in which certain editors operate. "Assume good faith" doesn't mean be ignorant to those who obviously act in bad faith.

I sincerely have to ask - what's the point of being here? I spent a lot of time contributing to that page and had all of it undone WEEKS later by an editor who lazily insists his way is right and I must kneel to him and beg him to change his mind. Why would I even try to contribute here under these circumstances? It makes no sense.

The obvious and logical course of GhostOfDanGurney, were he actually trying to edit in good faith, would be to ping me and ask me why I made the edits I did. Why do you think he instead simply reverted me? I'd love to hear an answer. Lazer-kitty (talk) 15:53, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm only continuing this engagement because you are misunderstanding several things. First, I am not the one who initially undid your changes; the IP user did so. I simply agree with them on the restoration of the content.

Secondly, I ceased discussing the matter because, at present, you are the only one arguing for the removal. When you decide to follow proper protocol, strike all personal attacks against me, and quit making sockpuppets to evade your block, then I will discuss things with you.

Thirdly, contrary to your "The world vs me" whinging, not all of your changes were undone. In fact, all but the footnote and list removal still exist. You're also ignoring all the contributions made before you started editing. Are they no longer valid? Did you discuss with the ones who made the content you removed?

Pinging @Swarm: as I'm not sure they are aware of the block evasion. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 10:30, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

The obvious and logical course of GhostOfDanGurney, were he actually trying to edit in good faith, would be to ping me and ask me why I made the edits I did. - that argument could just as easily be applied to you, this is something in which you are both equally guilty.
SSSB (talk) 10:50, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

You also need to cut out the personal attacks. Accusing GhostOfDanGurney of bulling you is a bad faith personal attack. Cut it out! I can only assume that this accusation of bulling arose because you were reverted without a reason. Then he could reasonably level the same accusation at you. No-one is tring to silence you, if you feel passionatly start a discussion. Otherwise move on. Editwarring and personal attacks are simply counter-productive to all those involved.
SSSB (talk) 10:59, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

• This is not complicated, and there's no debating here. If you're reverted, don't revert back, take it to the talk page. Don't accuse other editors of anything without direct proof, in fact don't talk about other editors at all. These are not difficult concepts. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 08:02, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

@Swarm: How about if edits have been in place for over a month, and you decide suddenly that you disagree with them even though you've edited the page multiple time since said edits were implemented, you take THAT disagreement to the talk page instead of lazily reverting edits that are, again, over a month old? How about that? How about actually contributing positively and productively instead of just saying "nah don't like it"? Lazer-kitty (talk) 19:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

That's hardly relevant. Replace nah don't with I and that last sentence could just as easily apply to you. Constantly insisting you were right when everyone else is telling you your wrong is not helping your cause.
SSSB (talk) 21:59, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

How long an article has been a certain way is irrelevant. Bold editing is encouraged by policy. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 12:41, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

@SSSB and Swarm: I don't agree at all. I made these edits over a month ago and GhostOfDanGurney edited the page multiple times after my edits were made. If he saw my changes immediately and thought "whoa, no way" and then reverted them, to me that's perfectly fine. But to edit the page multiple times and have seemingly no problem with my changes, only to suddenly reverse course weeks later and undo all my contributions, that's not acceptable. At that point the proper course of action is to take it to the talk page, not lazily revert things you've suddenly decided you don't like.

Where does it end? If I liked an article better the way it was five years ago, can I revert it to that stage and demand every intermediate editor explain themselves?

ALL I AM ASKING IS FOR PEOPLE TO BEHAVE WITH A MODICUM OF RESPECT FOR OTHERS' CONTRIBUTIONS, and you're telling me I'm wrong? All I'm asking is for a person to explain themselves to me, not just erase my contributions. And that makes me an idiot and a fool in your eyes? Lazer-kitty (talk) 13:09, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

At that point the proper course of action is to take it to the talk page, not lazily revert things you've ... decided you don't like. and All I'm asking is for a person to explain themselves to me, not just erase my contributions. are also actions you could have displayed to GhostOfDanGurney (if not after the first revert of GhostOfDanGurney, certainly the second). Had you done this you wouldn't have been blocked. Going to the talk page should have been the natrual step for you after you were reverted (likewise it should have been the natrual step for GhostOfDanGurney after he'd been reverted). Who should have gone to the talk page first and the state of the page whilst the issue was being discussed is secondry to the discussion taking place. Nobody is saying that GhostOfDanGurney handeled it correctly, only that handeled it incorrectly.
SSSB (talk) 14:06, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

It's not secondary, it is THE primary issue we are discussing. GhostOfDanGurney caused this entire conflict by refusing to discuss the issue until it was reverted back to the version that he saw as acceptable. He repeatedly accused me of WP:OWN, yet he is the person who insisted we could not discuss any changes until the page had been reverted. I think this is yet another example of editors and admins on Wikipedia only punishing and criticizing the person who responds to such actions and fully and completely dismissing the person who actually instigated it, solely because they technically met the letter of the law. The absolute fact remains that this never would've happened if GhostOfDanGurney had simply pinged me to say he disagreed with my edits, rather than lazily reverting them after several weeks.

Thrilled to see of GhostOfDanGurney has any sincere interest in a reasonable discussion now. Lazer-kitty (talk) 16:07, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

@LazerKitty how do you feel GhostDanofGurney was not blocked? 2600:387:5:80D:0:0:0:AA (talk) 23:30, 8 March 2020 (UTC)=

Guys, this is bizarre

@GhostOfDanGurney, Swarm, SSSB, and Ymblanter: I know that you have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe me on this but I am not Zestkick and I have absolutely no idea who they are. This is without a doubt the single most baffling thing that has ever happened to me on the internet. I guess they are imitating me for the purpose of trying to get this account permanently blocked? I have no idea. Honestly if I were on your shoes I wouldn't believe me right now but...wow. GhostOfDanGurney, I apologize for snapping at you and everything I said to you, and I do not care about our previous dispute any longer. You were right, I was wrong. I just want to find out what the heck is happening here and who this person is. Lazer-kitty (talk) 13:20, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

It sounds like a case for WP:CheckUser then.
SSSB (talk) 13:35, 4 March 2020 (UTC)