Talk:Cleavage (breasts)

Cleavage (breasts) was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (August 8, 2006). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

Hi there, I made some formating changes, because there was very little under some of the headings, and replaced the original picture, licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0, which, I think is freer than the coverpage. I left the SI picture in though, since I don't think there is a compelling reason not to include it, simply that the old one should not be replaced, since I think it is preferable. Hope that's ok, Trollderella 16:21, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I canged the picture back. The one you changed it to is really not a good picture, though I would not be against changing the magazine cover for a better one if you find one. But the sharealike one is too close, and hardly indicitive of cleavage, as you can barely see any. AriGold 17:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Always use a more free alternative if one is available. Such images can often be used more readily outside the US. If you see a fair use image and know of an alternative more free equivalent, please replace it, so the Wikipedia can become as free as possible.

You also changed all of the formatting changes back, I'm not sure whether that is deliberate. Frankly, I preffer the original picture, but the point is that it is more free in terms of licensing. I did not remove the magazine cover, and would appreciate having both the pictures on the page. I gives downstream users an option in terms of a free image which they can use that the magazine cover does not. For that reason I think it should stay. Trollderella 17:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize, I was using two screens to compare and must've messed up. Agaian, sorry. I put both pics back up, resized them as they were bigger than the article itself and swapped the better pic for the one of the girl taking the picture of herself. AriGold 17:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No problem - philosophically, even if the magazine covers are fair use, I feel we should not use them in preference to genuinely free pictures. Trollderella 17:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree if the "genuinely free pictures" were of decent quality and not like the one on this page. AriGold 17:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The heart wants what it wants, I suppose. I really like the original, it is somewhat artistic, showing cleavage 'in the wild'! Trollderella 17:51, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Right, but it's not centered, and the informational point in question is barely there visually as there is nothing underneath it to frame the area we are trying to describe, she is wearing black with a black backgound and her breasts have little definition or contour as to show what we are trying to describe. I mean honestly, it looks like a butt-crack with a head above it. You may "like" the original, but we are trying to add some form of information here in the form of a visual aide, not pick the picture we simply "like" more. Anyway, I hope it looks ok now. AriGold 17:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it seems clear to me, the image seems to draw attention to the feature in question, as opposed to the magazine cover, which draws attention to the face and is muddled. We're also trying to provide a free information resource, but yes, it looks ok now. Trollderella 18:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Using a copyrighted magazine cover to illustrate something for which there are free alternatives available -- and are quite easy to create -- is not fair use. Poking around for a minute on Commons, I found a far better picture than both of those with a free license. --Fastfission 16:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Types of cleavage

I am unable to find the terms used in this article to distinguish the various ways of exposing parts of the breasts ("cleavage décolleté," "cleavage centros," "cleavage côté," "cleavage underside," "cleavage cleavy") anywhere else on the Web except Wikipedia mirrors and Bikini Science. Are they truly "recognized in the fashion industry," or simply neoboobisms? I hope someone can cite authentic sources for these terms, or at least provide numerous photographs illustrating them from all angles. ➥the Epopt 21:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds to me like original research from "Bikini Science" and should probably be excised. --Cyde Weys 04:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looks that way to me, too. Can't find these terms anywhere except for Bikini Science, mirrors of this article, and a couple of blogs discussing this article. I have removed them. Equalpants 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merger

Oppose merger. --Arcadian 13:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why? —Keenan Pepper 14:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have separate articles for, say, Axilla and Underarm. Why should this be an exception? —Keenan Pepper 20:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merger. The two terms are very different. Intermammary cleft, like inframammary cleft, is an anaatomical term used to describe the dimensions around the breasts. Cleavage is about the area of breast that shows outside the clothes. Cleavage can be reshaped by clothes, body position or gravity. Ghosts&empties 00:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The current article gives the same definition for both, so they ought to be merged. Howdybob 20:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ghosts&empties, please don't edit my comments. It's considered vandalism, and I take it seriously. —Keenan Pepper 01:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To my mind intermammary sulcus is the purely scientific term and, although arguably synonymous with cleavage, I think cleavage is a more social / fashionable term as denoted by the history of it (as lightly touched upon in the article, but could be expanded). That said, the intermammary sulcus article is rather short and if there really is nothing in it to be expanded on then probs worth deleting. Mmm, where does this leave me? 'Weak don't merge' Iancaddy 17:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why should it be deleted instead of merged? Think about it. Suppose someone hears the phrase intermammary sulcus and decides to look it up on Wikipedia. If it's deleted, they get a long list of vaguely related stuff from the search engine, and think "hmm, maybe Wikipedia isn't all it's cracked up to be". If it redirects to Cleavage (breasts), they immediately find out what it is. —Keenan Pepper 22:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, who wants a world without cleavage? Ergo, wikipedia should have cleavage too, and more of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.85.228.129 (talk • contribs) .

It seems Ghosts&empties took it upon himself/herself to remove the merge templates without doing anything about it. It seems to me there are only two possibilities: Either they are the same thing, and should be merged, or they are different things, and someone should explain how they're different. Intermammary sulcus still says "commonly referred to as cleavage", and yet they are not merged. This is not a satisfactory situation. —Keenan Pepper 21:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Free images are prefered to copyvios

I rolled back the image change; we prefer to use free images over copyright violations. ➥the Epopt 16:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plus Aria Giovanni looks better. —Keenan Pepper 17:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the same thing as intermammary sulcus or not?

This is getting ridiculous. If someone doesn't explain how these are different within a couple of days, I'm merging them. Wikipedia is not a dictionary and should not have multiple entries for synonyms. —Keenan Pepper 23:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The current definition in the Cleavage article is as follows: "Cleavage is the partial exposure of a woman's breasts, and/or the cleft between them." In other words: "X = Y, and/or Z". The intermammary sulcus is Z. X != Z. However, perhaps the Cleavage article is incorrect, and if you can find a credible, external source that asserts that the terms are synonyms, I would have no objection to the merger. --Arcadian 01:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look, it doesn't even matter if they're not exactly the same thing, nothing more, nothing less. From Wikipedia:Merging and moving pages under good reasons to merge a page:

There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there doesn't need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.

As for a "credible, external source", how about the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, which defines cleavage as "the hollow between a woman's breasts, esp. as exposed by a low-cut garment"? —Keenan Pepper 01:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good enough for me -- I remove my objection to the merge, but I ask that when you merge, you remove the "and/or" portion of the definition of cleavage (since the OED supports the "Z" definition but not the "Y" definition). --Arcadian 01:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Keenan - per your merger today from intermammary sulcus - I agree that the definition you've provided above is a synonym, so the merger would be appropriate. However, as I've mentioned above, the existing definition on the article page was not a synonym (because of the "and/or"). If you really want these pages merged, then we have to hold this page to the same rigor as we would other anatomical structures. Therefore, I have edited the page to align the definitions. --Arcadian 16:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great. That's what I've always thought — it's not cleavage unless the breasts actually touch each other and form a visible line. —Keenan Pepper 00:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use is never, under any conditions, preferable to free

Let me attempt to clarify why I will continue to revert all attempts to add copyrighted images to this page: because they are copyrighted, and your fair use defense of your copyright violation is invalid unless you are discussing the image itself. For a magazine cover, you have to discuss that particular magazine's use of that particular image. You cannot use it to illustrate an article that has nothing to do with the image except that the woman in the image has an intermammary sulcus.

Yes, this means that the overwhelmingly vast majority of images that claim to be fair use are in fact indefensible copyright violations and should be summarily deleted. ➥the Epopt 16:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a solution to copyright issues, on May 31 I editted the article to include a link to Liv Lindeland. I agree that the free image (Aria Giovanni) is preferable to a copyrighted one and have left that image at the top of the article. However the image of Liv Lindeland is still necessary to illustrate the concept of Australian cleavage (a technical term of art). I believe there is clear legal precedent Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation and Perfect 10 v. Google, Inc. that linking to an image is fair use. The image in the article on Liv Lindeland is fair use because the article critiques the image itself (as well as others of her) in addition to the image being used to identify her. (This same image of Liv Lindeland with a completely blank background is available elsewhere on the web if this is preferable to linking to another WP article.) Is there any reason why linking to an image as descibed would be a copyright violation? Ghosts&empties 13:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hearing no objection, I've reverted to the link from May 31.

One problem with the link to Liv Lindeland is that it assumes the article will remain the same (someone might replace or remove those images), and it's not entirely clear which picture is being referred to. (Well, until you look at each one for signs of cleavage, but I assume you see what I mean.) —tregoweth (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

alternate image suggestion

thumb

What do you folks think? The model is my wife, the picture is legal and public domain so no worries there. I took the picture for the downblouse article but they would look nice here too, and take care of any fair use worries. HighInBC 05:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think Image:AriaGiovanni.jpg better illustrates the phenomenon, a narrow cleft formed where the breasts touch each other. In your picture there's a pretty wide area between the breasts. —Keenan Pepper 15:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No ... I can't even think of a humorous caption for this.

Ok, it was made for the downblouse article so it is clearly not suited for this one. HighInBC 16:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Crude comment removed[1]. HighInBC 19:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Failed GA

Failed article, for the following reasons:

Appears to have elements of original research
Image is missing essential source information

-Isopropyl 15:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Post Flapper fashion

Cleavage as defined is a partial revealing of the breast. How is it that cleavage came back with sweaters? This should be clarified. --Lelek 06:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nix history

As noted in the comment above, the section on the history of cleavage is unclear and very vague. Cleavage was popular long before "the late fifteenth century". Doing a brief history of cleavage (even a recent history) would be roughly akin to a brief history of women's fashion. The history section appears to have been an attempt to make the article appear encyclopedic. However the number of articles linking here demonstrate its significance.

I also deleted the image "1200cc Breast Implants.jpg" as an illustration of Australian cleavage because it's a better image of scary/scarry implants. The link to the album cover is fair use of a copyright image and more illustrative. Ghosts&empties 23:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting up merged articles again

Mark my words: neither this article nor Intermammary sulcus will ever become a featured article or even a good article without including information that belongs at the other. Go ahead, try to make Intermammary sulcus a featured article without talking about cleavage. Prove me wrong; I'd be delighted. —Keenan Pepper 20:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I nominated this article for "good article" status pretty much as a joke (although it's one of my personal favorites). Like good décolletage, the content is pretty skimpy (but enough to warrant an article). I agree that intermammary sulcus is just an sterile synonym that's already fully covered in the cleavage article. Ghosts&empties 13:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Australian cleavage?

As an Australian, I have never heard of the displaying of the underside of breasts being referred to as Australian cleavage. This term looks remarkably like an invention of a wikipedia author.

I have not tagged it {{fact}} yet but will do so unless someone can provide compelling evidence that the term exists outside a few wiki articles and copycat sites. If the term is unique to one country (eg the USA), it would be appropriate to say so in the article. --AliceJMarkham 04:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not surprising that Australian Cleavage is an unknown term in Australia. It would be confusing (all cleavage in Australia is Australian) and the term "Down under", the basis for the joke is seldom used there. I know that Australian cleavage has been used in shock radio shows. H Bruthzoo 18:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

push up bras

what is the purpose of the removeable pads in push up bras?