Talk:Soviet famine of 1930–1933

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Map

Why are people using this map? It is extremely old, its foreign, it does not reflect contemporary scholarship (some severe famine areas are not even on the damn map, but some areas with no documented famine are shown black). At that time little was known about the USSR in France or elsewhere. Now we have mountains of scholarship on the famine, but we use an unsourced map thats 80 years old. The best you could say about it is that its: a.old (who cares) b. correctly identifies Ukraine as one of the worst hit areas (as everybody knows anyway).

I really don't see what purpose it serves, other than give people the a incomplete and inaccurate representation of the the famine's geography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.197.30.88 (talk) 09:21, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I added the reference for the map. It appears that Dr. Markoff was either shot or sent to the GULAGs in the late 1930's (1937 or 1938). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.53.57.210 (talk) 00:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

POV

This article makes no attempt to discuss the event from a neutral perspective. I introduced two references that dispute the assertion that the famine was mostly or soley due to political factors, but the article is still pretty lopsided and asserts opinions as facts. This is really a sensitive subject area with a lot of propaganda flying around both ways, writing the article like everything about this event has been established as fact is dishonest. FooBar82 (talk)

Holodomor Template

Holodomor Template was added to this article strictly for background information of related articles in Wikipedia. The Holodomor template is patterned after the Holocaust Template and the Armenian Genocide Template.

The template, if any, should meet the consensus by its content. So far it is a random and strange collection of stuff someone might have "heard" or something. It cannot be used in articles. --Irpen 05:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Tags - One by One

Hello,

There are three tags on the page, and I propose we discuss them one by one. First, the neutrality tag. The reason I think that this is not neutral is that by definition it ascribes the famine to the Soviet Union. When discussing the Irish Potato Famine, one knows that everybody in Ireland suffered. When discussing the Ethiopian famine, one knows that everybody in Ethiopia suffered. However, in 1932-33, only a few small parts of the Soviet Union suffered, mostly (and I mean MOSTLY Ukraine). Therefore, by naming the issue "The Soviet Famine" Wikipedia automatically distributes the suffering throughout the Soviet Union, which simply did not happen.

Second, the tag about OR. None of the references provided mention anything about "all the major grain producing regions of the Soviet Union". There are no in-line references until the "estimation of loss of life" section, and that is only to quote a number. Everything else seems to have been written by the editors, or put together by them. In other words, total OR. In the lead itself, there is a reference to the famine of 1932-34.

Third, about unpublished synthesis. In none of the references is there a description of a famine which affected "all of the grain producing regions of the Soviet Union". Because that never happened. That is not what scholars are saying, and therefore it has no place on Wikipedia. One more query about references. These were stated to be by "acknowledged experts", and yet one of them is titled "The Soviet Famine of 1931-33: Politically Motivated or Ecological Disaster?", with the wrong dates. How is this an "expert" source?

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• Right, since you asked me to come here let me address the first point:

- The Ukraine at the time was part of the Soviet Union and all the references I found describe the event as the soviet famine therefore the article title is fine and based on that the title is neutral and factually correct. Jasynnash2 (talk) 09:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, you're right that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union at the time, but that's exactly the point - there were many parts of the Soviet Union, and most of them were not affected. Don't you think that by saying "Soviet Famine" it implies that everybody suffered, just like saying "Soviet losses during World War II" implies everybody suffered? Thanks, Horlo (talk) 09:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Nope. I think by saying Soviet Famine that it means soviets suffered and that the famine occured in the Soviet Union. Pretty basic stuff in my opinion (the exact same reasoning works for your Soviet losses example as well by the way. Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that we have to be careful here because of the topic. When you speak of wars, you can assume that the entire country was involved, because as a political entity, it decided to declare war. (of course there are many times, like in Canada during the two World Wars, that some political entities within the country objected)That's why when you talk about the second world war, its acceptable to say Soviet losses.

However here, we're dealing with a natural disaster, and arguably a genocide. When you talk about the Tokyo earthquake of 1921, it's not the Japan earthquake of 1921, even though it happened in Japan. When you talk about Mt Vesuvius erupting, it's not the Roman volcano, even though it happened in the Roman empire. In those cases, suffering was very focussed. Now, when you talk about the Irish potato famine, it means everybody in Ireland was suffering.

However, with the Famine in 1932-33, there were very focussed areas that suffered - not most grain producing regions, and not the Soviet Union. Naming it the Soviet famine makes that assumption. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 04:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Horlo, your personal opinions are irrelevant. The famine's being Soviet is stated right in the title of one of the (if not the) most authoritative books on the subject by the leading scholars of the field.

• R. W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft, "The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933 (The Industrialization of Soviet Russia)", Palgrave Macmillan, 2004, ISBN 0-333-31107-8.

The authors specifically speak about Soviet famine and if you ever intend to start reading any scholarly sources on what happened during this famine (in Ukraine and elsewhere in the USSR), your best shot is to start with this work. (I could recommend also some works in Ukrainian but I am not sure you can read Ukrainian.) Such works are by far more educational than local Ukrainian community newspapers that you mostly use to "source" your articles. While buying this book may cost you, it would be money well spent. Alternatively, you may try a good library. Regards, --Irpen 04:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Irpen, thank you for your opinion. Also, for somebody who makes grammar mistakes in English in almost every sentence, please don't start lecturing me about reading "scholarly sources". Note that THE most authoritative book (according to you) on the subject does not mention any soviet famine. It mentions soviet agriculture, and soviet russia. However, that is not what this is about. Perhaps "famine" and "agriculture" are two words that you could look up. There are some great dictionaries in bookstores, or if they are too expensive, you could check your local library.

If you have something constructive to add, please do. If you don't understand something, such as the difference between agriculture and famine, or soviet russia and the soviet union, please ask. However, please don't remove tags before checking the talk page.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Horlo, if you want to be taken seriously and get responses, do not leave trollish entries like above. Best regards, --Irpen 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC).

Hello, Irpen, again, if you have something constructive to add, please do. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Horlo's negligence

I've added sources to the different regions of the famine's locations, Caucasus, Central Asia and Siberia are quite vast territories, add Ukraine to that and it certainly fits the definition of a nation-wide famine. Now we must focus on expanding this article. --Kuban Cossack 12:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Ain't this wonderful: Please discuss before removing tags - personal attacks are not discussions yet where are you Horlo on the talk page? All your previous queries have been answered! What do you want discussions to go on without your participation and until they endorse your svidomy POV? --Kuban Cossack 11:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, if you actually read the talk page, you will see that none of the issues raised have been answered - there is no mention about a Soviet-wide famine. There is talk about people suffering, people starving to death, and one book that describes the failure of Russian agriculture. However, nothing about a Soviet wide famine.

I'm sure that if I count how many times you have called me a POV pusher - in light of the fact that you have not answered any of my questions, and undid how many of my edits claiming "read talk - no consensus" rather than discussing in good faith, I'm pretty sure that it would become obvious who has to participate on the talk page. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 19:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I provided refrences to three of the named regions, one from a demographic journal, one from a historical journal and one from the release by the Siberian Academy of Sciences. I don't exactly think those are synthesis...--Kuban Cossack 08:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

No, the synthesis is your combining all of those events into one. That's exactly the problem with this article - there is no source stating that everybody in the USSR was suffering from famine. By stating that there was a soviet famine, you are synthesizing, and Originally Researching. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 21:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

In the Russian famine of 1921 there were areas of Russia that were not suffering from the famine. In the Holdomor there were areas of Ukraine that were not suffering from the famine. What's your problem? On the AFD NOBODY supported you in deleting the article, and now you want to discredit it. --Kuban Cossack 07:44, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I don't know anything about the Russian famine of 1921, so I won't comment on that. In the Holodomor, there were areas of Ukraine where food was available - the parts not in the USSR.

However, that doesn't change the fact that there was no one soviet famine, just a bunch of little ones. And please, don't speculate about my motivation - the reason I edit here is to make Wikipedia a better, and more transparent, place. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Really which is why so far your contribution has been a resultless attempt to mutilate the title of Kiev. Anyhow your lack of knowledge of the 1921 famine is really dissapointing, you seem to take so much interest in the subject but that comment shows how limited your wider knowledge of the subject really is. In that case, I would recommend that you withold from attacking articles you know nothing about, like this one. --Kuban Cossack 07:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Kuban kazak, please avoid such long-winded discussions that talk about alot but say nothing. None of what you wrote in that paragraph has anything to do with the discussion here - the famines that took place in the early 1930s.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 18:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't veer off subject Horlo, your limited knowledge of the topic and your ignorance to the wider facts are crystal clear in your tone above, and in the context of the content. I've made citations which prove everything, on the AfD NONE supported you. So please take that oppurtunity and read up on the subject. --Kuban Cossack 07:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, how am I veering off topic? I am asking questions about this article, and you are calling me ignorant. Please avoid personal attacks, but answer the questions. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 18:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

All your questions have been answered, you did not like the answerings file a WP:DR, stop reverting, otherwise I will request for the article to be locked from editing.--Kuban Cossack 07:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Hello, first, could you please show me one scholarly reference that states that there was a soviet-wide famine which included all of the grain producing areas of the soviet union? Let's start there. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 06:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

[1], is that enough? --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 07:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, actually, no, for three reasons. First, the book you found talks only about the Volga and Kazakhstan regions. Second, the book talks about denial by the soviet authorities and/or drought, not famine. Third, it does not mention one all-encompassing famine. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Look Horlo you might as well seek WP:DR, I can only say that your pointless attack on this article is getting irritant, reminds me of the fruitless attempt to rename Kiev, that one year on is nowhere. --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 07:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, if you have something to add to this discussion, please do. However, statements like "your pointless attack" and "getting irritant" or even "that one year on is nowhere" do not help anybody. Please, try to avoid any personal comments, and let's build this into a better encyclopedia.

Now, do you have any reasons that the tags do not belong? Thanks, Horlo (talk) 05:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, I ask - can you show one source that claims that "there was a famine in all major grain-producing regions of the soviet union"? Thanks, Horlo (talk) 05:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I had a look at the some of the scholarly sources that mention the "Soviet famine", they all seem to be discussing the famine in Ukraine. The way the lead is structured diminishes the famine in Ukraine to just another area in the Soviet Union suffering a famine, when it is clear that Ukraine had the lion's share of deaths, i.e. Ukraine accounts for >60% of all deaths in the "Soviet famine". I think the lead needs to be re-worded to reflect this fact. Martintg (talk) 11:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the lead to reflect the published sources. Martintg (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This says Kazakhstan lost a much larger percentage of its rural population than Ukraine, percent-wise. And no, Ukraine didn't account for >60% of the deaths. It accounted for under half going by most estimates. The intro right now seems to almost brush aside the other areas effected and make it seem like Ukraine was the only part of the Soviet Union that was hit hard. Not very accurate in my opinion. Krawndawg (talk) 02:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The absolute majority of deaths took place at the Ukraine (5 million versus 2 million elsewhere).Biophys (talk) 04:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The link by Krawndawg, although possibly not a reliable source itself, is interesting. It tells (with refs.) that Russian Federation lost 2.5 million, Kazakhstan lost 1.7 million, and Ukraine lost 3.3 million directly to the hunger, specifically in 1932-1933. After digging out the original sources, these numbers could be used in the article. Note that losses outside the Ukraine are significantly higher than those indicated by Conquest.Biophys (talk) 15:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that the infographic published by RIAN only gives the names of two authors, which I don't think is enough to be considered a reliable source. The Infographic notes the number deaths in Ukraine as "directly" attributed to the famine, as Dana Dalrymple notes in the paper "The Soviet Famine of 1932-1934" published in Soviet Studies, Vol. 15, No. 3, (Jan., 1964), "In speaking of deaths from the famine, it is necessary to include more than those who died from outright hunger. The majority died of slight colds which they could not withstand in their weakened condition; of typhus, the familiar accompaniment of famine; of "exhaustion", to use the familiar euphemistic word in the death reports". So without a more meaningful reference, we don't know if RIAN is discounting other deaths related to the famine but not directly through starvation in the case of Ukraine, but including other deaths in the case of the Russian Federation.

The issue here is that when the "Soviet famine" is discussed in scholarly literature, they are mainly talking about Soviet Ukraine as the focus. There is an issue of WP:UNDUE when other areas are given equal weight, which diminishes the significance of the famine in Ukraine. This is not reflected in the scholarly sources which gives the famine in Ukraine prime focus. Martintg (talk) 23:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There was no Russian Federation back in 30's, you probably meant RSFSR? Also I'm not sure what is the value of differentiating whether people technically died from hunger or from diseases caused by hunger, especially that these usually go together. This could be maybe relevant in a highly specialised medical article, but not really in an article discussing demographic consequences of the famine. Pawel Krawczyk (talk) 11:24, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Stalin ordered that kulaks were "to be liquidated as a class" and this liquidation was considered by many historians to have resulted in the Soviet famine of 1932–33. This famine has complicated attempts to identify the number of deaths arising from the executions of kulaks. A wide range of death tolls has been suggested, from as many as 6 million suggested by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, whereas the much lower number of 700,000 deaths are estimated by Soviet sources. A collection of estimates is maintained by Matthew White. Soviet campaign of political repressions, including arrests, deportations, and executions of millions of the better-off peasants and their families in 1929–1932. The Soviet authorities labeled the richer peasants 'kulaks" and portrayed them as class enemies. I wonder why I see no mentions about the massacre of the kulaks having an effect on the famine of 1932-33? To me it seems it should be under the "Reasons"- category on the main article. HawkEye97 (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

But kulaks WERE class enemies, they were in direct conflict with kolkhoz-type of agriculture management, were taking large part of profits from peasants, were using peasants as capital and were speculating on price. Kulaks DID sabotage soviet efforts to make the region more effective. The grain production numbers from past 1945 years demonstrate the point exactly. Soviet type of agriculture farms were fair to workers, had thin management layer and were extremely efficient.89.1.129.167 (talk) 02:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

References

Tauger's view and its critics

Holodomor genocide question Xx236 (talk) 08:36, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Mikhail Sholokhov's letter to Stalin

Mikhail Sholokhov wrote a letter in April 1933 [2].Xx236 (talk) 09:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

"Execution by Hunger."

"Execution by Hunger." is title of a book http://www.amazon.com/Execution-Hunger-The-Hidden-Holocaust/dp/0393304167 and one of Holodomor translations. Xx236 (talk) 09:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

The famine in Soviet/Russian media

I have found a 1989 article http://scepsis.net/library/id_1105.html, I don't know when the subject sstarted to be discussed. Russia's government declared the famine important in 2008. Xx236 (talk) 09:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Tauger

These edits give undue weight to a tiny minority position. According to "majority" of sources, this famine was not caused by weather or poor harvest. My very best wishes (talk) 22:41, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

• RS to this effect can certainly be added. My concern was with the removal of cited material without a rationale. Tauger is a reputable historian and should be considered RS. I've not seen otherwise, please see random google search result A History of Russia Volume 2: Since 1855, by Walter Moss. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:50, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
• Fixed. My brain did not work properly. Certainly, the quality of this article is in stark contrast with, e.g., "Soviet grain procurement crisis of 1928". - üser:Altenmann >t 23:03, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Now this is better, although obviously still "wrong version". My very best wishes (talk) 13:36, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately there was never "good version" here. :-( 15:16, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Law of Spikelets

This section is moronic, entirely uncited, and completely unencyclopedic. 68.173.8.191 (talk) 20:56, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Neutrality

I overhauled a bunch of this article to try and get it to fit neutrality guidelines a little more. There are still a few statements that I feel are out of line but I've left them alone for the moment. It'd be great if we could reach a consensus on this so the maintenance template can be removed. Thanks! Alistoriv (talk) 18:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Great Depression

Should this be considered part of the Great Depression? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:3C5:8200:B79:8D67:88C4:B4CF:459C (talk) 20:06, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Severe bias

Obviously a controversial issue, but this article is horrendously bias. There was an intentional aspect to the famine but their were numerous other causes, including drought, mass industrialisation, innefficiencies in collectivization and the hoarding of grain caused by price controls. The entirety of the front of the article has been edited to make this dissapear, which is clear intentional bias.

Quite frankly, the article should simply be deleted in favour of the much better written Holodomor article, which should then be scaled up to include the entirety of the famine.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SirusNotSirius (talk • contribs) 20:08, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Reasons

What I found missing from this article within the Reasons section was any mention of the unobtainable quotas put against Ukraine during this time which resulted in many deaths, or the numerous police squads sent to take grain away from the peasants personal supplies in order to meet the quota. This also led to many people dying of starvation.JerryBlandford (talk) 22:53, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

References

Edits to the Reactions

I added the view that explains why Holodomor might not be categorized as genocide given by a work of the historian cited in the edit. The last paragraph of the section is the edit ("A comprehensive criticism is presented by Michael Ellman in the article “Stalin and the Soviet famine of 1932 - 33 Revisited”"...). I thought we could create an additional section in the article to add the points in the debate made by different historians and talk about what countries classify the famine as genocide but I could not figure out how to add a new section. Revisions are welcome. If you want to contribute to a new section, please do, then we can move that paragraph there.

In the hypothetical new section, I suggest adding information about which countries classify the famine as genocide. Then citing different historians. Tanya897 (talk) 22:53, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2019

The shortages were blamed on kulak sabotage, and authorities distributed what supplies were available into the urban areas only. 195.195.236.131 (talk) 15:53, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Genocide Issue

The article was just edited to conclusively state that the Holodomor was a genocide. It should be obvious that, between the cites given here and on the Holodomor page, that this is not the universal position: the editor's stated comparison to the settled issue that is the Holocaust only betrays a lack of knowledge on the issue, and their edit contradicts numerous points in this very article. I reverted, but this was undone and I was asked to take it to Talk. I want the page to recognize the unsettled nature of the field, as it generally does (though it really needs a re-write to avoid duplication with the major Kazakh and Ukrainian subpages, and to draw on the sources those provide). Note that I was not making a change, but reverting someone else's: if someone wants to change the existing consensus, they should have made this entry, not me.

• "The Holodomor in Ukraine and Kazakh famine of 1932–33 have been seen as genocide committed by Joseph Stalin's government." [cited]
• "The famine is seen by some historians as a deliberate act of genocide against ethnic Ukrainians and Kazakhs while other critics dispute the relevance of any ethnic motivation," [cited]
• "Members of the international community have denounced the USSR government for the events of the years 1932-1933. However, the classification of the Ukrainian famine as a genocide is a subject of debate." [cited]

At the same time, we have clear cited statements from Lesa Melnyczuk Morgan and Anne Applebaum that it was a genocide. This is not a matter of fringe vs. academia, but of different portions of academia battling it out. Palindromedairy (talk) 01:48, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Not only that, but this entire article starts off with vagueness that is akin to weasel-wording, for example:

It has been estimated that between 3.3[8] and 3.9 million died in Ukraine[9] and 2 million (40% of all Kazakhs) died in Kazakhstan.[10][11][12][13]

It should instead indicate that between 3.3 and 3.0 million died from the famine itself in the Ukraine [...]

As for academia vs fringe, you know as well as I know that the primary tactic of one side in academia is to push the other into fringe, because that is the best way to achieve what is desired when all that matters is that 6 is greater than 7. Imagine on the Holocaust page if people tried to use vague language to isolate typhus deaths from murders and have the isolated number be presented as the whole of the event, opening the door for a discussion as to whether typhus is genocide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1002:B019:CEC7:110F:2427:65C5:283A (talk) 05:25, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I support this change I hope more people will join in on this.