Talk:Sex differences in medicine

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Yes, Sexism

It comes as no surprise to me that this article is deeply flawed, due to the boring yet irritatingly predictable sexism against men in western society. "Histrionic personality disorder" is noted as due to sexist "attitudes", "anti-social behavior" as given no such appendage. Considering that the lists sole purpose is to list the differences, it manages to miss out that, if you go by the WHO, cancer affects more men than women. It also fails to mention cardiovascular disease. Or tuberculosis, both of which affect men more than women. Females are generally less vulnerable than males to chronic illnesses. Thats quoting Wikipedia. "Overall, men are more likely to suffer from cancer, with much of this driven by lung cancer." But, subject as one author here might say, to "deeply ingrained social attitudes".....

Mensrights 24/1/2011 86.42.240.56 (talk) 12:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

added that respiratory infections and tuberculosis are more common in men. Cancer was already on the list. Hope I've helped even out some of the bias Feralcateater000 (talk) 22:27, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

it

it is a rather well known fact - the reference:

http://www2.health-center.com/mentalhealth/personality/borderline.htm

It is a disputed fact. Read the text of Histrionic personality disorder (from the US National Library of Medicine), or do a little research on the social causes of medical diagnosis. Wikipedia does not exist in order to provide free web hosting for weirdo distortions of reality. Tannin

I looked at the linked source and didn't se any statistics at all on sex-specificity. I also agree with Tannin that a web-page is not an authoritative "reference." But I want to add another observation: the article mixes up two different kinds of so-called sex-specific illnesses. It seems pretty obvious that only males will get testicular cancer, and only females will get cervical cancer. This is VERY different from illnesses like heart attacks, suicide, or BPD. In these cases, epidemiologists at best provide probabilities and tendencies. But even if 90% of all BPD patients were female and 10% were male (and we are assuming too that males and females seek treatment and are diagnosed equally, which is far from certain), one can hardly call BPD a "sex-specific illness." Slrubenstein

the bpd is qoted as 3 times more frequent - there is paragraph in the middle. frequency of histrionics is disputed by some, but there are more diagnosed females. the frequencies for eating disorder are also supported on that web page.

Sorry I missed that. In any event, it is still by no means "sex-specific." To list it as such in this article, especially without going into the methodological issues, would be misleading. If you are especially interested in (and knowledgeable about) the issues concerning sex and the prevelance of various disorders (BPD, Bulemia) I wouldn't want to discourage you from contributing to an article. BUT it should not be called "sex-specific illnesses," it should be something like The relationship between one's sex and illness -- and it really would have to go into greater detail about likely sociological/cultural causes, as well as methodological issue like bias in reporting and diagnosis. Slrubenstein

i agree article could have a better title. it discusses illnesses which are not exclusively specific to a sex, but which occur with different frequencies -abcdef

this is link to gender specific medicine. the term seems not to be exclusive.

http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/partnership/publications.html

abcdef - I fixed the title. I created the link carelessly - not properly considering the exact meaning of the phrase. Martin

Article title

Surely it would be clearer if this page were called "Gender and illness", since it's nothing to do with sex? ··gracefool |☺ 04:53, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That would be exactly backwards! "Sex" is biological, "Gender" is sociological. Medical statistics are compiled with regard to sex, not gender. "Sex" is a euphemism for "sexual intercourse", not a synonym. Which is not to say the article couldn't be better titled or better written... - Nunh-huh 05:00, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree, the current Title is terrible. It is implying illness caused by sex. Since we have Gender-biased diagnosing, would Gender-biased Illnesses be any better? Exit2DOS ^{• Ctrl • Alt • Del} 23:38, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The thing is, like Nunh-huh said, Wikipedia currently defines Sex as a biological/anatomical classification, and Gender as a sociological/psychological classification. It is because of these definitions that Gender does not have direct biological impacts on illness. Thus, to use the word "Gender" instead of "Sex" would go against the biological aim of the article and the category it's in. Changing the title would also most likely be either inconsistent with the category its in, inaccurate, or in-concise. DialecticArguments (talk) 23:35, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Endometriosis

Endometriosis has, very rarely, been found in men undergoing estrogen treatment for prostate cancer. Although this is rare, it is significant for understanding endometriosis as a disease. It casts severe doubt on the main suggested cause of endometriosis, retrograde menstruation. I will amend the page (which currently says it only occurs in women) to this effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Louisecooke (talk • contribs) 21:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC). Signature added by SUM1 (talk) 24 December 2019

Inconsistency

I've noticed an inconsistency within the article. The article states that "Sex differences in medicine should not be confused with gender differences. The Institute of Medicine recognizes sex differences as biological at the chromosomal level, whereas gender differences are based on self-representation and other factors including biology, environment and experience." However, it goes on to say that Sex-related illnesses have "social causes that relate to the gender role expected of that sex in a particular society" and "different levels of prevention, reporting, diagnosis or treatment in each gender." These two parts of the article directly contradict each other. My only question is, what should be the intent of this article? To note illnesses that are more common in one sex than the other with a physiological explanation, or to also list diseases with behavioral, societal, and psychological causes that are preventable in a gender neutral society? DialecticArguments (talk) 00:03, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Unsupported, Over-generalized "Scientific" Claims

Making claims such as "occurs exclusively in men" or "occur only in women" is not ethical and completely incorrect when reporting or reiterating research results. To claim that men or women cannot develop a specific disease ignores the other genders and sexes who most definitely can even though legally they are classified as the sex male or female or socially identify as a man or woman. For example: in the wiki article of Klinefelter syndrome these people (whether one would like to classify them as males/men or females/women or other), it states that those with Klinefelter syndrome can develop "certain health problems that typically affect females." The percentage about women verses men who are diagnosed with breast cancer can be somewhat misleading because males can still die from breast cancer, due to the fact that it is so rare that it takes a long period of time to convince doctors to attempt to diagnose until much later stages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SWillow (talk • contribs) 02:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

In response to a lot of the above topics

I attempted to help remove the confusion regarding gender in the article by mentioning that disease does not care about gender (I added that trans men can also develop endometriosis or ovarian cancer). I didn't do this the other way around because a lot of the research on prostate cancer does seem to indicate trans women are less susceptible, and given that intersex people in general are rare I was worried mentioning them would be WP:UNDUE Feralcateater000 (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Change of Wikilink to men and women

@Maneesh: I've just reverted your two edits to the Wikilinks for men and women [1], [2]. Not all men are male humans, and not all women are female humans. Trans and non-binary people exist, and still have the same rate for some illnesses and disorders as a cisgender. For example a trans woman can still get prostate cancer, and a trans man can still get cervical cancer. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Transwomen are obviously also men, adult males. The edit summary was crystal clear: almost each and every line (and each and every RS that supports each line) uses man/men and woman/women. The fact that some males identify as trans (or "non-binary") has no relevance here. Maneesh (talk) 22:48, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

No, trans women are not men. Trans women are women. Likewise trans men are not women. Trans men are men. Trans is an adjective applied to man/woman. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:52, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

This is religious thinking, you are entitled to it, but you can't use a title in section here the way you have. Look at all the points, the section titles reflect those points accurately and must use man/woman. Maneesh (talk) 22:54, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

No. It is not religious thinking, and I am going to ask you to self-revert per WP:BRD, as there is not a consensus for this change from the previously stable version. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:56, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Please count the number of occurrences of "men" and "women" below each respective title out of the total number of points. Maneesh (talk) 22:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Also please note, the article is titled Sex differences in medicine. Using male/female would be more appropriate here than man/woman. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:58, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Men are adult human males, women are adult human females - is it surprising to you that the underlying RS generally use those words that way?Maneesh (talk)

I will not be baited into an edit war with you. I will ask one last time, please self-revert per WP:BRD as there is not a consensus for this change you have made. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:08, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I see nothing in BRD that compels me to revert my own (not bold at all) edit. "Men" and "women" is what is being used on almost each and every line in the sections you are trying to revert . Please do put up an RfC if you need to. Maneesh (talk) 23:12, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Bold, Revert, Discuss. You Boldly made two edits 1, 2. They were reverted 3. Now it is time to Discuss why those changes are WP:DUE and to establish a consensus for them. Right now, there is no consensus for this edit. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:16, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Ain't a bold edit, you don't acknowledge that the title is merely reflecting the the content below it. Looking at BRD, all of these seem to apply:

BRD is not a justification for imposing one's own view or for tendentious editing.

BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes.

Maneesh (talk) 23:19, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Maneesh, if you insist in your editing that transwomen are ... men and trans men are women you will be blocked from editing: I have never seen any other result come from that POV impulse, when an editor insists on following it to its logical conclusion. This will happen even faster if you remove sources to do so, as you have today. So you will have to decide which is more important to: your POV or continuing to edit Wikipedia. You can't have both, as your recent edit history makes clear. Newimpartial (talk) 23:34, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I have no problem saying "transwomen are male", particularly in the talk section of an article on sex differences in medicine. Not POV, just a simple facts. I'm terribly uninterested in a wikpedia that censors such simple truths. Please do go out there and do your best to ban me if you think your efforts will be successful. Maneesh (talk) 23:38, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

More strange reverts

Most of the illnesses in the lists are not "sex-related". Almost each and every line uses "men" and "women", associated changes to reflect that simple fact have been reverted. Trans identification has nothing to do with sex-related differences, vague ideas around gender have no place in this article. Maneesh (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps in your mind "men" means AMAB people and "women" means AFAB people, but that isn't what the recent, reliable sources say, which is what matters on Wikipedia. Also, stop edit-warring and please obtain consensus for your edits before reinstating them. Newimpartial (talk) 23:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

What is in my mind doesn't really matter. What matters is that this article uses "men" and "women", so do the underlying MEDRS, and the titles that summarize that information need to as well. Maneesh (talk) 23:40, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Actually as I said above, the underlying MEDRS use male/female. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Each one I've spot checked uses man/men/male(s) and woman/women/female(s) synonymously. Which ones did you find that only used "male" and "female"? Maneesh (talk) 23:43, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

In the current "Women" section, the following sources use male/female 10, 28-31, 35, 42, 43, 45. In the current "Men" section, the following sources use male/female 25, 26, 30, 35, 47, 48, 49, 50, 52, 54, 58, 59, 60, 61. I was unable to access the texts to sources 33, 34, 38, 40, 55, 56, 57 due to a mixture of dead URLs, or being unable to quickly find a copy of the relevant paper/chapter. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Spot checking it seems that, as I've already said, at least some (I suspect most) of those RS use "men" synonymously with "male" and "woman" synonymously with "female". E.g.: 28: "Estimated new cases and deaths from breast cancer (men only) in the United States in 2021:[1] New cases: 2,650. Deaths: 530. Male breast cancer is rare.[2] Fewer than 1% of all breast carcinomas occur in men.[3,4]". This current WP article uses "men" and "women" overwhelmingly. Maneesh (talk) 00:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Just to be clear, as silly as I feel doing this, this is a standard usage of those terms in English.Maneesh (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

It is not standard usage of those terms in English. At least not for about the last decade. Also you've cherry picked a single example. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:11, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if English is your first language? Go out and throw a rock and read the news, google news query for woman AND female. Denying that "woman" and "female" are used synonymously every day is absurd. I read a lot of research, I know these words are used synonymously all the time the way they are outside of research. Why you are trying to suggest that isn't true is more than a little puzzling. Maneesh (talk) 00:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, English is my first language. And like any living language, it evolves over time. Woman or man has not be synonymous with female or male for the better part of the last decade. Woman and man are gender related terms. Male and female are sex related terms. On an article titled "Sex differences in medicine" it is more accurate to use sex related terms than gender related terms. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm just throwing rocks 45: "POTS is more frequent in women (female:male ratio, 4.5:1), and most cases occur between the ages...". You do realize it's an easy bet that almost all the cites you make use of the synonymous terms. How long do you think you can call this "cherry picking"?Maneesh (talk) 00:43, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Woman or man has not be synonymous with female or male for the better part of the last decade....you do realize that the google query is live and returns mainstream stories that are mere hours old, don't you? Maneesh (talk) 01:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I am very unimpressed with the constant goal post shifting. It makes it very hard to assume good faith. The discussion is on language MEDRS use, not what NEWSORG use. Likewise this shift from Please count the number of occurrences of "men" and "women" below each respective title out of the total number of points to Each one I've spot checked uses man/men/male(s) and woman/women/female(s) synonymously. is dishonest. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:32, 14 December 2021 (UTC)