Talk:Confiscation of Armenian properties in Turkey

Intro - Claim about 143 properties

The following section of the intro/lead is not supported by any text in the body, so I have removed it, but store it here for other editors to ratify, rework, add to main body, summarise, Anglicise etc. I believe its removal has improved the impact of the intro for the lay reader, partly because I also find the English to be confusing but cannot fix it because I am not sure of the underlying meaning. The heavy referencing is also inappropriate for the introduction - It could be reinstated in the body of the article. Chienlit (talk) 17:38, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

* 143 of the confiscated properties have been appropriated to the ownership of the Armenian foundation.

Appropriated meaning returned. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:23, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

There wasnt an issue with the intro. If appropiate wasnt understandable then it shouldve been replaced with returned. Also the 22% must be returned to the article. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:40, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Unfortunately your assertion demonstrates that there was an issue. Please be aware that 'appropriate' and 'appropriated' have different meanings in English. Please also avoid putting significant content in the intro, it should be in a section of the body and summarised in the lead... which is what I have now done. Regards Chienlit (talk) 20:11, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Contemporary analysis section

The section's new table—a textual version of the graphic—could use some explanation of terms, since some of the entries aren't clear, and indeed raise questions. Part of the issue is related to the use of "foundation" as a singular: when at least 53 foundations are under consideration, using the singular is confusing. I did some editing where I was sure of my ground, but more is needed.

The table uses the term "immovable asset": what exactly is this? In the context of the previous text, one would assume this to be properties: buildings and land. Is it, though? Are there other things? It seems clear that Chienlit added the summary at the bottom with the use of properties, since it's taken from text elsewhere in the article, but I'd like confirmation that this is a correct usage.

There's also the item "Non-existent parcels". Parcels of land don't just disappear. There can be competing parcel descriptions that cover the same land, parcels can be merged, subdivided, reassembled, etc. Presumably the municipality, treasury, or public property parcels—resubdivided or not—don't count here, even if the land is now part of a roadway. We need an explanation for this item.

The "Immovable assets returned to the foundation" line is a bit unclear: is this assets returned to the original foundation it was confiscated from, or to that foundation or a successor foundation of some sort? That the assets are back in Armenian hands does seem clear from the article.

I think the most puzzling item is "Immovable assets conveyed to the Director General of the foundation". The only foundations we've been talking about are Armenian ones, so if this is an Armenian foundation, which one is it, why conveyed to the Director General rather than the foundation itself, and why is this not added to the Armenian total? (I've been wondering what happened to properties that had been owned by Armenian foundations that are no longer active, but for which the Armenian community still wants returned; is there a special foundation set up to work on getting such confiscated properties back?) If this isn't an Armenian foundation at all, then the item needs to be reworded to make that clear.

There's also a lack of clarity in the article about the numbers and scope of them. If I'm reading the article correctly, there were an unspecified number of confiscations throughout Turkey starting in 1915 under the Ottomans, which continued under the Turkish Republic in the 1920s and 30s (and presumably the following decades), then over 1,400 confiscations of post-1936 property acquisitions as a result of the 1975 law. The 661 confiscations discussed by Hrant Dink are the Istanbul properties—I think; it might include outlying properties of Istanbul foundations—and include (based on the cemetery) confiscations starting from the early 20th century. The lead of the article should certainly have the numbers that apply to all of Turkey since the article is about Turkey as a whole. These should be given before the Istanbul-specific numbers. If there's a reliably sourced number available with the total number of confiscations in Turkey over the past near-century, it ought to be included. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• Wow, excellent analysis BlueM. You've described almost every confusion that I felt while editing the article and creating the table. And you've described a good series of upgrades to move the article forward. I agree on all your points about what should be included, but I fear that complete clarity may not be possible on such a subject.

- Yes - I simply copied the 1,328 text to give a linkling (an inkling of a link :) ) to the main lead.

- Please note - I took a guess that DG meant Director General, so it would be good for ProudB to confirm or correct that.

p.s. I also could not get to grips with f(F)oundation(s) until I saw the table, and you just beat me with the edit. I wonder if 'institution' will be a more appropriate term for some of them. Hopefully ProudB will also be able to clarify this.

Regards. Chienlit (talk) 17:45, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I must say you have raised some good points. First off, these category names are from the Hrant Dink Foundation itself. Please see: http://www.istanbulermenivakiflari.org/uploads/grafik2.jpg. Firstly, Immovable Assets is an internationally recognized term for "real estate". The term real estate isn't used internationally and I figured if I used the word property, it would have been more confusing because a car or a table can also be considered property. Immovable assets are "anything" fixated (immovable) on land such as gravestones, buildings, trees, and etc. But if you truly believe property or real estate are better terms, we can definitely use them. Second, non-existent parcels means assets that are destroyed or don't exist anymore. Kalfayan and Pangalti Armenian Cemetery are considered non-existent because no trace of the buildings or cemetery's original structure remain. However, if the term parcel confuses the reader, we can change that non-existent immovable asset. Anyways, DG of Foundations means Director General of Foundations (Vakif Genel Mudurlugu), which is a government organization that seizes confiscated assets and through a (often long) legal process and has them returned to the original owners. This is their official website: http://www.vgm.gov.tr/index.aspx?Dil=EN . However, I admit I made a spelling mistake on the graph and wrote DG of Foundation. A "s" needs to be added to foundation in order to clarify this. I guess I need to make a new graph. Sorry to confuse you guys :D ...and to your last point, the returning of Armenian confiscated assets is in its infancy and the Hrant Dink foundation is the main overseer of this operation. Its main focus is Istanbul, but in the future it will expand. The Sanasarian College is a start. Quite frankly, I don't know if there are sources to show every single Armenian asset confiscated in Turkey. After a Genocide and the Varlik Vergisi, that would be a massive task! I merely outlined what the Hrant Dink Foundation is working with and some other cases like the Incirlik Airbase. Also you asked what are immovable foundations returned to foundation? The properties returned are returned to the original foundation. Such as the Surp Prgic Foundation or the Sanasarian Foundation which continue to exist and are not successive foundations. But we can always rename the category "Returned to Original Ownership" if that may clarify it more. Thank you so much for raising these concerns. By the way, I hope you guys checked out the map and pressed the little + sign at the top left beneath the logo. You can see all properties in the Istanbul region that were confiscated. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing

The article currently contains multiple passages of copyright violation plagiarism and close paraphrasing. This can be a problem under both our copyright policies and our guideline on plagiarism. Some examples (note, these are only examples and are not the only instances or the only source copied from): The source Legislative Provisions of the Ottoman/Turkish Governments Regarding Minorities and Their Properties says:

"The net result of this 'protection' law was the channeling of property 'owned' by the Turkish state to Muslims through rigged auctions, which often excluded even Muslims of non-Turkish origin."

The article says:

"These auctions channeled the property unlawfully expropriated by the Turkish state to the general Muslim population through oftentimes 'rigged' auctions, which often excluded non-Muslims or non-Turkish Muslims."

or The source says:

"Any litigant claiming property or revenues derived from its sale or rental would have the state as defendants."

The article says:

"Any litigant claiming property of revenues derived from its sale or rental would have the state as defendants."

A complete rewrite is necessary to excise this material. AbstractIllusions (talk) 00:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Let me see what I can fix here. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. Removing tag. Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Not Fixed. I think this needs to slow down a lot and be taken much more carefully. While I appreciate the quick efforts to deal with the problem of close paraphrasing (although some instances were not fixed at all), the edits do not appear to be A) actually solving the problem or B) improving the content of the article. Let's focus on the two sentences highlighted above to see these problems. The first sentence above was rewritten but remains close paraphrased. (note: and the entire paragraph is largely following the same argument in the paragraph from the source--repeating an argument step by step keeps the writing derivative of the source and may be considered plagaized or close paraphrased). The objective is to take an idea and rewrite it in your own words, not to reorder the words (or repeat every point of a paragraph) so that they use more synonyms for the words. So "net result" becomes "ultimately" and "channeling of property" becomes "property transferred." Two good ways out of this are to work from Notes not originals and to synthesize larger points. A rewritten point of this claim could be "Because non-Turkish individuals could not own property without permission of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the auctions did not include these individuals and were effectively 'rigged' to only give property to Turkish refugees being resettled." So a rewrite of the entire paragraph in original fashion would be necessary to solve the close paraphrasing issue. The second sentence above was rewritten to make it factually incorrect. The plagiarized sentence was changed to "Those who wanted to reclaim the property were obligated to have the state defend their interests." That is not what the source says: the source says that the state would be the defendant in any lawsuit--not that the state would defend the interests of Armenians who had their property stolen. Other sentences became unclear in the revisions. So, the effort is good: but the problem is not being solved and the content may be getting worse in the process. Quick band-aids are not going to address the problem (and once again I'm just using these examples to highlight the larger problems in the article--they are not the only issues). Rewrite entire paragraphs from notes--don't just change the wording of individual sentences; this should help improve the writing, avoid close paraphrasing, and keep them accurate. AbstractIllusions (talk) 02:03, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I have practically rewritten the article with over a hundred or so edits. I am not here to play cat and mouse. If you truly want to help, you'll have to sort out the problematic sentences one by one or assist me in the process of copy-editing directly in the article itself. I'm the creator of this article, not its inventor. As for the examples you have raised, I will rephrase them to the best of my abilities, even though the changes to the mentioned sentences are appear well fixed for any third-party reader. Proudbolsahye (talk) 02:13, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

To reiterate: Rewriting a section or article does not mean rephrasing 100 sentences in that article, it involves a different practice. I'm trying to fix your long pattern of disruptive editing with chronic close paraphrasing and plagiarism (and keep my cool while doing so). If you want to become a better editor and remove the bad editing, here's someone who is tentatively willing to help you do so. If you want to give me attitude, then I will gladly simply attach the close paraphrasing tag to other articles you have close paraphrased and other activities to clean up these articles. (And please read my statement -- this edit does not make the statement factually accurate, which is what I specified as the problem, and shows the carelessness which has permeated many of the edits you've done). AbstractIllusions (talk) 02:41, 21 September 2013 (UTC)