Talk:Massacre of Lviv professors

Participation of OUN in Massacre of Lwów professors

In the night of July 3/4, 1941, between 10 p.m. and 2 a.m. several units composed of the SS, police and field gendarmerie under the command of SS officers rushed into private homes of the professors of the higher academic institutions and arrested all men above 18 years of age found in their houses. ZYGMUNT ALBERT THE MURDER OF LWÓW PROFESSORS BY GERMAN AUTHORITIES IN JULY 1941

and

http://www.vesna.org.ua/txt/grytsakj/formuv/r5.html
Звичайно, це не знімає питання про участь окремих українців у воєнних злочинах проти інших національностей, зокрема проти поляків. Але й тут попри спаведливі звинувачення можна зустріти перебільшення і навіть явні видумки. У першу чергу це стосується міфів про причетність українських націоналістів до розстрілу групи польських професорів у Львові (липень 1941 р.) та про участь дивізії СС "Галичина" у придушенні Варшавського повстання. Щодо першої акції, то вона була брутальною реалізацію тези Гітлера, що на одній землі не може і не повині існуватидвох панів – німців і поляків – і тому польську інтеліґенцію належить винищити. Львівський розстріл належить до того ж ряду подій, щой розправа з краківськими професорами у листопаді 1939 р. Документальні матеріали і спогади свідків доводять видуманність тези, що вбивство львівських професоорів здійснили українці (невиясненним, однак, залишається питання, чи українські студенти були причетні до складання списку страчених, і, якщо так, то чи робили це вони з власної ініціативи а чи на вимогу ґестапо) [34] [34] Kazn profesorow lwowskich. Lipiec 1941. Studia oraz relacje i dokumenty zebrane i opracowane przez Zygmunta Alberta, Wroclaw, 1989. -- Yakudza 09:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Blanking the piece of the article is rarely a way to go (it may be correct sometimes but not usually). Add an alternative view and/or say what's wrong with this one if you think so. There is plenty of the writing that say to the contrary. Check refs in the Himka's article I posted at talk:Lviv. "There has been almost no attempt on the part of the Ukrainian diaspora to confront the issue of war criminality in a less defensive and more soul-searching manner." --Irpen 18:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I have taken this phrase out of article since she has a no relations to murder professor. This appropriately in article about OUN, Nachtigal or histories Lviv. I did not rely on on publications the Ukrainian diaspora, but on title of the polish historian Zygmunta Alberta. The Reference to this article with site http://www.lwow.home.pl/ was brought earlier, and text was written on its base in Wikipedia. The Fragment on ukrainian is also founded on article Zygmunta Alberta. His author, not representative diaspora, but liberal ukrainian historian Grytsak. --Yakudza 07:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, you made a good case to challenge the piece. I think we should place the "factual dispute" tag on the article for now and wait a bit for responces and refs that support the current version. If there is none, we'll remove the piece and the tag. I will place a tag right now. Deleting at once from such a controvercial topic is a bad idea. See Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages#...but_don.27t_be_reckless.21 --Irpen 08:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I find it quite hard to understand Yakudza's English, but I'll try. As to the Ukrainian complicity in the crimes of summer of 1941 - there are zillions of documents on them. As to the case of this particular crime, such complicity is indeed mentioned only briefly in the article by Wacław Szybalski. However, it is mentioned in the collection of documents by Zygmunt Albert, as well as by Lanckorońska in her memoirs (both in her description of situation in Lwów itself and later in Stanisławów). The biography of Boy-Żeleński also mentions it (though briefly) and it's partially available online (in Polish). I really don't know how one can prove that there was no complicity and that the Ukrainian units were not there. Especially that it is quite well-established fact that the OUN collaborated with the Abwehr even before the war and that many Ukrainians (including the chiefs of OUN themselves) initially saw the Germans as liberators and tried to aid them any way they could. Of course, with time such tactics proved to be but a dream of independent Ukraine, but still the collaboration was quite strong, even until the end of WWII (mostly by Melnykist faction). Halibutt 09:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

First of all biting the newbies who are making a good-faith effort and especially criticising their English (as well as anyone else's) is rather rude. To the issue, I standrartized Yakudza's ref and moved it to ref list where it belongs. He brought up an academic work where the participation of Ukrainian nationalists in this particular massacre is challenged (not overall existence of collaboration). Still, a number of books that claim to the contrary warrants mention of Ukrainian participation. On the other hand, I would add a word, that these accounts are not universally agreed upon (unless, of course, we have sufficient grounds to discredit the text by Hrytsak). --Irpen 17:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You got me wrong, I was not biting a newbie and it was not my intention to critisize his English. I was merely explaining myself in case I got some of his comments wrong. As to the rest of your comment - totally agreed. Halibutt 00:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

"Роланд" і "Нахтіґаль", складених з членів ОУН-б (Hrytsak). Xx236 14:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Most of the Jewish inhabitants of the city were shot on the spot

Not "most". Xx236 14:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

composed of the SS, police and field gendarmerie under the command of SS officers

Rather not SS. Xx236 14:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Wolisch or Walisch?

Xx236 14:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Some of the online sources cite his name as Wolisch. The pre-war business registry suggests that he might've been either Chaim Wolisch who owned a fabric store at Wałowa 2 street or Adolf Wolisch who had a clothing store at Skarbkowska 5. Check for instance [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]...

On the other hand this source states that his name was Walisch and that he owned the "Beier i Ska" shop, not listed in the 1929 registry. Halibutt 15:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian point of view

Government commission for researching OUN-UPA's activity was created in Ukraine. Official report of Ukrainian historians mentions the case: it is said that there was an investigation about the massacre in Hamburg in 1966 and it was proved that brigadenfuhrer Schoengart had been responsible for the crime.

Moreover, this is confirmed by Zygmunt Albert in his article "Murder of Lwow professors" (the external link):

"Many Poles still think that the professors were massacred by the Ukrainians. If this were so, the Hamburg prosecutor would not have admitted after the war that it was done by his fellow countrymen - the Germans. When Helena Krukowska lodged a complaint at the Ludwigsburg Court concerning the murder of her husband Wlodzimierz and other professors, Prosecutor Below replied that those guilty of the murder were: Himmler, Frank, Schöngarth, SS-Standartenführer Heim and probably SS-Hauptscharführer Horst Waldenburger, but they were no longer alive and the remaining guilty individuals were still being sought. The prosecutor admitted that only the firing squad consisted of Ukrainians dressed in SS uniforms".

Hans Krüger

In Polish Wikipedia there are two persons with this surname and it seems, that the link in the article points to the wrong man. (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kr%C3%BCger) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.20.3.6 (talk) 22:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Right. It seems there are two separate people. I made a Hans_Krüger disambiguation page to distinguish between the politician and the soldier. Now someone needs to write a page for Hans_Krüger (soldier). Dark Formal (talk) 11:46, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

image

The image should not be in this article. Please stop adding it. Thanks, Ostap 19:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

And the reason why it shouldn't be is? Loosmark (talk) 19:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Should I go add images of graves with "death to Jews" in Polish written on them in The Holocaust in Poland article? If you have an image of the memorial please add it, not one that has been vandalized by some unknown fanatic. Ostap 20:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is wikipedia's policy in regards to images of vandalised memorials and there is also a difference between a grave and a memorial. In Poland the "unknown fanatics" who vandalise important memorials tend to get caught and become known. Loosmark (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Loosmark, you know how much I respect you and your opinions but I have to side with Ostap here, especially after reading his second comment. Some stupid vandals did that and it is not worth having this on this page. There are also no relations to what the German Nazis did then and to the idiots who vandalized the plaque with the graffiti. At least this is my opinion about it. Thanks guys.--Jacurek (talk) 23:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

<--One reason to not include the image is just to err on the side of caution. The inscription was made by "unknown vandals", and who knows, maybe it was even a provocation made by outside parties? I think that Ostap is also right - we don't know who vandalized the image and it could've very well been some wacko extremist, not representative of anything in particular except their own idiocy. Poland's has crazy extremists too, as does every country in the world.radek (talk) 01:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I've my doubts that it was just a random extremist vandal but OK i won't insist on that image. Maybe somebody will upload a non vandalized image of the memorial later. Loosmark (talk) 09:52, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest ensuring that the image has a proper description / categories on Commons. Perhaps there is a category that can be linked somehow? Unless there is a need to illustrate notable modern vandalism of the relevant monument(s), there is probably no pressing need to have the image here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Why??? What was the reasoning (whatever it was)???

This is a strange article. It talks about all the killing, but doesn't even attempt to go into the reason (whatever it may have been) of WHY the killings occurred. The article is useless without this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.184.172 (talk) 07:31, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Cooperation with Soviets

Other than anti-Soviet feelings, I'm not sure what is so outrageous about the referenced phrase "Ukrainian scholar I.K Patrylyak states that out of approximately 160 Polish professors living in Lviv in June 1941, the professors chosen for execution were specifically those who actively cooperated with the Soviet regime between 1940-1941, such as members of Soviet working groups, members of Soviet councils, or members of a delegation that met with Stalin and discussed the possible formation of a pro-Soviet Polish government." OUN were murdering Ukrainians and their families who cooperated with the Soviets, too. Cooperation doesn't necessarily mean working for the NKVD or being a fanatic communist (although the victim Tadeusz Boy-Żeleński might sort of qualify), it also means being part of Soviet councils - which in my opinion probably means, if the Soviets sponsored a faculty senate in the reorganized university, being a delegate in it would be considered cooperation with the Soviet regime. UPA were killing people in villages and their families, who happened to be mayors of villages, memebers of village soviets or councils, etc. under Soviet rule. Patrilyak's statement seems to fit the pattern; it cetainly doesn't seem strange that the OUN would give the Germans a list of people to kill based on cooperation with the Soviet authorities/administration.Faustian (talk) 03:57, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Adding to my comment - I think some of the people trying to remove this information do so because they do not want all the victims to be portrayed as Communists if they were not. This is a legitimate concern and I am open to any wording that would make this clear and the description more accurate.Faustian (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

• I think someone tried to remove the misquoted scholar text - so a full text of patrilyak suggest [6] - pages 221-223

so Patrilyak text - In May 1941 at a meeting in Krakow the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program “Struggle and action for OUN during the war” (Ukrainian: ”Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни») which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR. Section G of that document –“Orders for first days of the state living organization” Ukrainian: “Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя» outline activity of the Bandera followers during summer 1941 In subsection of “Policy Minority” ordered: “Moskali, Poles, Jews are hostile for us ” and thus them must be “… exterminated in fight, especially those who which would resist the regime: deport them to their own lands, importantly: destroy their intelligentsia that may not be allowed into positions of power" … "so-called Polish peasants must be assimilated"… Jews must be isolated, removed from governmental positions, those who are deemed necessary may only work with an overseer... Jews' assimilation is not possible. and Patrilyak suggest such instruction as orders to extermination of ethnical minorities - Poles and Jews - becouse they Poles and Jews. Also he add information which actually added to article - in addition to be a Poles they also interract with Soviet Authorities. And at page 324 He conclude that the personnel of the Nachtigall_Battalion have all reason to murder them - becouse they are 1) Poles 2) Intelligentsia and as a last - they interract with regime. That's the full scholar text - so - addition a part of the text without a context need to be fixed to proper representation of the scholar text. P.S. Same text appeared here [7] at page 62-64 - and notable to include as separate section - may be name "Bandera's OUN and Nachtigal participation" would be intact. Thank youJo0doe (talk) 07:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)