Talk:Warsaw concentration camp/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 21:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Taking this one. Comments follow soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• on the ruins of the Warsaw Ghetto, on the base of the now nonexistent Gęsiówka prison – The first sentence of the lead seems a bit long due to this, and this also confuses a bit. Not sure what the difference between "on the ruins" and "on the base of" is. Maybe remove one to keep it simple for the first sentence?

There are two separate elements: it functioned in the ruins of the Warsaw Ghetto (its task was to get rid of the rubble of the ghetto after all), and the main building of that camp was Gęsiówka. So there are two different elements that I believe have to be mentioned. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Of course, keeping it is totally ok. I am mostly concerned about Good Article criterion 1: well written. If I stumble above it, others might, too. Could you try to formulate it in a more simple and clear way? Maybe make a separate sentence out of it? Maybe writing "within the ruins of the Warsaw Ghetto" instead of "on the ruins" would make things much clearer already, to show that the camp does not occupy the whole ghetto. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Is it better now? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• KL Warschau – In German we would definitely use an article, i.e. "the KL Warschau". Why do you use the abbreviation in the first place when "Warsaw concentration camp" seems to be more common?

The usage of the abbreviation is both because Polish sources use it and for stylistical reasons, so as to not repeat "the Warsaw concentration camp" in every sentence, and use synonyms of that name instead. (KZ Warschau is also valid, but I don't really know German, and besides most of the publications about the camp were made in Poland anyway).

For this GA it is ok if you decide to keep it, but: 1) We should use the terminology used in English-language sources since this is the English Wikipedia, and 2) clarity always comes before style. "Use the same word for the same thing" really helps readers with understanding. Because in general, if you use a different name, the reader first has to assume that you mean a different thing. I feel that intermittently switching to this non-English abbreviation is challenging to the reader and adds unnecessary complexity. It makes the article less accessible to people. From my experience, in such situations we in Wikipedia normally would abbreviate with "the concentration camp" or simply "the camp" to avoid repetition when it is clear from the context that this particular camp is meant. But I think other articles do generally not switch to completely different names. For example, Auschwitz concentration camp, which is already GA, does not do this. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

This is why in the very first sentence KL Warschau is explicitly mentioned as an alternative name from German, and there is a link to "see other names", where all relevant names are bolded. The very first version of the expanded articles included all names, for both Nazi and Communist camp, though ultimately the Communist names were moved to the section about the Communist camp. The ones most used in reference to the camp are Gęsiówka and KL/KZ Warschau (depends on language). I think I also used the suggested rephrasings (see The camp and adjacent ruins were also used by the German administration as a place of execution and About 380 SS officers were maintaining the concentration camp, approximately the size of a company). As for the frequency of usage, the piece by Christopher Davies uses it, so does [1] this one. Some others (e.g. Gabriel Finder) use Gęsiówka as a shorthand. Others still use the full name, in particular when referring to the Wikipedia error/hoax that persisted for 15 years. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

As for the article "the", I assume that in English, we wouldn't use it. See this piece for reference.

• OK, I was just wondering. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• Supporters of the Trzcińska's theory – not sure, should it be without the "the" or "Trzcińska theory"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

It's fine as it is. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

It was the only German camp to be liberated by anti-Nazi resistance forces rather than by Allied troops -->[2]

Where did you get this from Szmenderowiecki?

@ GizzyCatBella🍁 14:27, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

[3] [4], refs 46 and 72 in the article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 14:37, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

That might not be correct data. This force also liberated a camp in Czechoslovakia [5] - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:56, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I've added an explanatory footnote to that effect. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:45, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

The information here[6] is on pages 242-243. Your range is 221-274 [7]. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• These new camps were also intended to host Jewish labourers, – the first paragraph of "creation" confuses me, because the formulations suggest that the camp already existed; later in that paragraph we learn that they actually have not been established yet. In the letter dated 9 October, did Himmler mention a planned camp? Reformulate to avoid this confusion?

  The problem is, a concentration camp already existed in Lublin (Majdanek), but not in Warsaw, so I can't call both to be planned. But I have made some tweaks, let's see if this is any better. Also, I've added a ref containing the original order.

• inside a closed and deserted zone of the former ghetto, which was surrounded – I wasn't sure if "which" referres to the ghetto or the deserted zone. I think the former? Maybe write "of the former ghetto that was surrounded" to make it clearer?

  The ghetto was itself a deserted zone, no part of the ghetto survived (treat "deserted zone" as an adjective). I don't think clarification is needed.

• but the whole process was only completed in June 1944 because the inmates had had to undergo quarantine the previous month – I don't follow here; what has the quarantine to do with the camp's completion?
• Is there any more specific article to link quarantine too, or could an explanation be added?

• There isn't any other link for quarantine, but I drew from the other section to explain that there were two quarantines (as written by Berenstein et al.). Better?

• The number of SS guards – Is this the same as "SS officer"? If so, please stick with one term, because here I am really not sure. If not, then we want to know the number of SS guards, I think.

  An officer in military terms is a higher-ranked official; not all members of the military are therefore military officers. Guards are just that, guards (though this does not mean there hasn't been any sort of cruelty from them, quite the contrary).

• The original SS unit, was gathered from various other camps – comma does not belong here I think

• Indeed.

• As Bogusław Kopka shows – why is this name relevant here? We need author attribution if this is an opinion or a controversial fact, but that doesn't seem to be the case?

• There is disagreement between Kopka and IPN's prosecutors' summary. That's why I mention his name, and I've moved the IPN's opinion out of a footnote and into the main text

• The irregularities were so numerous that SS authorities eventually intervened,[47] presumably due to an escape of a Reichsdeutsche prisoner.[9] – This somehow contradicts itself. Did they intervene because of the escape or because of the numerous irregularities?

• I made it more clear that there was some action after which the Germans could bear no more of that corruption bull----, which apparently was an escape of a German prisoner, or so Andreas Mix says.

• the kapos were Germans – "kapos" does not seem to be explained anywhere. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• "They became prisoner functionaries, such as kapos and Blockältester (block supervisors)" (mentioned a paragraph or two later). I've wikilinked the first mention of kapo.
• Please ping me when you see any further suggestions/problems. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:53, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

• July 1943;[23][30] Among – I suggest a full stop here (or "among" in lower case)
• dollars),[24] however, – needs a ; behind "dollars)"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 13:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Szmenderowiecki I still have an issue with using this -->[8] as a source (or any reference to it), if that is to be a GA article. I don’t think you need to be provided the history behind it, do you? - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  This has been discussed here and it was determined to be OK as a source mentioned in the footnote, as it is at the present stage. If you want to relitigate that closure, you have the closure review. Otherwise, I'm not acting on this request. Enough of spilt electonic ink and wasted time. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, and what the closing person say? there is --> consensus that the Haaretz article used as a source for the footnote is reliable But you using it as a source of information within the article[9]. See also this again -->[10]. If that is to be a GA you need to pay attention to things like that to avoid potential future issues. There is a sufficient amount of quality sources available, we don’t need to use this to source anything. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:31, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  You may also reconsider using YouTube as a source -->[11],[12] again, see sourcing expectations for this topic area. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:41, 15 June 2022 (UTC)