Talk:Black Hand (Serbia)

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The impact section

The impact section is practically one long paragraph, and should probably be either reorganized or rewritten. Or broken into smaller sections. Maybe even a new article. Just a suggestion. Ravewolf (talk) 02:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

....

it really is Chornoya, meaning "black" in russian language. "crna", sounds slightly familiar but i wouldnt know in what language this could refer to. Anyways. I hope that's of some clarification. But the word "Ruka", does indeed mean "hand" in russian. --User:Sofystikated

If this had anything to do with Russia, maybe what you're saying would make some sense? --Shallot 23:04, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree, why do you bring up Russia? The Black Hand was Serbian, Crna Ruka is Serbian for "The Black Hand". --62.78.185.120

Montenegro is crna something. So I'm guessing the language formerly known as Serbo-Croat. Secretlondon

Google gets 0 hits for 'Chornoya Ruka'. Hmmm. Morwen 21:37, Feb 8, 2004 (UTC)

Chornoya Ruka means black hand in Russian... --GorillazFanAdam 17:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Gavrillo Princep

Gavrillo Princep was not a member of the Black Hand, he was assited by them, they supplied the weapons, but he was not a member.

Incorrect. Gavrilo Princip was indeed an official member of the Black Hand. Mehicdino 04:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

He was a member; he was a friend of Chabrinovitch and was brought into the organizaion between 1912 and 1914 by Dimitrijevitch. User:RideABicycle/Signature 20:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

He was not of sufficient age to become a member of the Black Hand. He did not appear on the coded list of members produced at Salonika. In any event, "Unification or Death" was no longer a functioning organization by the time of the assassination; instead its remnants had become little more than an extension of the Chief Of Serbian Military Intelligence's power. See the testimony of the central committee (Salonika): Its president was dead and was not replaced, its secretary was disinterested, its coffers were empty, many links between cells were broken by casualties taken in the war against Bulgaria. He is therefore usually referred to as a member of "Young Bosnia" or "Young Bosnians". This was not an organization, but simply a term used primarily after 1918 to refer to a wide range of organizations, groups and individuals dedicated to the destruction of Austria-Hungary so that a Yugoslavia, a Greater Serbia, or independent slavic states could form. Princip did try to join the Comitaji for the Balkans wars but was rejected by Major Tankosic, himself a member of the Black Hand central committee. There is evidence that the two adult members of the assassination team at Sarajevo were members of the Black Hand, namely Danilo Ilic, and Mohamed Mehmedbasic.

Werchovsky 18:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Sidney Bradshaw Fay's The origins of the world war makes clear Dimitrijevitch's inclusion of Princip as a Black Hand member at Vol. II, p. 101. Gavrilo was initially rejected in 1914 when he sought membership. However, two years later he was brought into the organization formally by Dimitrijevitch himself to work on an attempt on the Hapsburg Governor in Sarajevo. As a Bosnian émigré in Belgrade, he was a great choice. Before 1916, he remained in close contact with Chabrinovitch, who was involved with Union or Death for some time. It is often hard to discern details about the pan-Yugoslav organizations of this prewar period; Austria-Hungary never did find that Narodna Odbrana and Union or Death were separate entities. They shared assets and members, and were all affiliated with high government officers (via the ruling Radical Party).

User:RideABicycle/Signature 19:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Something is wrong with your quoting of Fay. I am sure he wouldn't be saying that Princip joined "Unification or Death" in 1916 while Princip was in an Austro-Hungarian prison dying of consumption; and of course Dimitrievic was in Serbian Officer's Prison in late 1916. Perhaps you better quote Mr. Fay directly to avoid mischaracterizing his work. Perhaps you meant 1912 and 1914? It was Dimitrievic's sworn testimony that although the "Black Hand" oath was occassionally administered in 1914, it was only for the purposes of military intelligence.

Werchovsky 19:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Austria-Hungary did have intelligence on the Black Hand, the misconception that it did not springs from the fact that this intelligence was not brought to the investigators involved in the Sarajevo assassination. Of course, in reality, the Narodna and the "Black Hand" were not completely seperate. They had overlapping memberships and the "Black Hand" used the Narodna as it saw fit including using its "tunnel" to transport the Belgrade assassins and their weapons to Sarajevo. Please fix your quote of Fay soon.

Werchovsky 20:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

A question

Does anyone know whether the Black Hand still exists, or if not, when it was destroyed/petered out? That might be useful for inclusion in this article, and to satisfy my own curiosity. --Anakolouthon 21:15, 8 Dec 2004 ( Some people think that still exsist but is not so active like it was

They scattered after Solunski Proces (The Sallonica Trials) during WWI where the leaders were court marshalled (and shot) for the 1903 coup and other crimes. Apis is burried in Zeytinlik military cemetery in Thessaloniki. --User:milosj

The above is false. Black Handers were tried at Salonika on many charges, all false. Ultimately they were convicted only of attempting to Kill Heir Aleksandar. The guilty verdicts were overturned posthumously for the three who were actually shot (Dimitrievic (formerly Chief of Military Intelligence) who had made a written confession to organizing the assassination of Franz Ferdinand through Rade Malobabic, Rade Malobabic who had confessed to a Priest that he had been sent to Sarajevo, and Colonal Vulovic who had confessed to having received orders signed by the Chief of the Serbian General Staff Marshall Putnik to send Rade into Austria-Hungary shortly before the assassination. Those not executed generally were let out of prison early. Serbia held none to account for their real crimes such as the assassination of the King and Queen and Queen's brothers, and 2 cabinet members in 1903, or for the aborted putsch in Macedonia in 1914, or for their roles in the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Read "The 'Black Hand' on Trial: Salonika, 1917", or any first rate history book on the origins of WWI such as Albertini or Fay.

Werchovsky 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Serbia

Montenegro is Crne Gore pronounced Tserna Gora, and Crne Ruka is Serbian

Montenegro is Crna Gora, and Black Hand is Crna Ruka. --User:milosj

Secret Society\Mafia

Is the original author of the article able to add the secret society and mafia aspects please.

Why mafia? They were a secret society that included mostly high-ranking officers and government officials. --User:milosj

Prior to the ascendancy of the Gambino family in the US' golden era of the mafia, the Italian mafia was referred to by the apellation "The Black Hand" as well. There should be a disambiguation page.Citizenposse 02:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

well.. there should be

The "black hand" was a criminal organization born in Italy (Naples) and spread in the USA. "BLACK HAND - symbol and name for a criminal and terroristic secret society, and especially associated with the Mafia and the Camorra. The Black Hand flourished in Sicily in the late 19th cent., and in the United States it was especially active in New York City at the beginning of the 20th cent. It is estimated that at one time 90% of New York City's Italian population was blackmailed by letters threatening death and marked with a black hand. Famous incidents associated with the Black Hand include the murder (1890) in New Orleans of chief of police Daniel Hennessy and the shooting (1909), in Palermo, Italy, of Lt. Joseph Petrosino of the New York City police."

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst;jsessionid=HvfRNGFTCBP6kCT6XGRygfmt36Q9tKYLpBBFMWDSxvQQFCQ3s9T0!1063769811?a=o&d=112847639 http://www.onewal.com/maf-bib.html Jackblues 20:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

pop culture references?

I'm not sure this is the best place to make a comment about a "blood metal band", if they are in fact worthy of being in wikipedia shouldnt that be better placed in an article about the band? --Michael Lynn 12:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Video Games

Brotherhood of Nod's Black Hand from Command and Conquor anyone? The black hand from ESIV?

What about the Black Hand of the Dark Brotherhood from Elder scrolls IV: Oblivion? should that be mentioned in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.225.87 (talk) 01:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Straying?

The impact section, while extensive, is starting to stray from the Black Hand into Serb-Hapsburg conflict before the war. Perhaps we should stick to the organization itself (Sarajevo was not at all the only impact it made on the world ). User:RideABicycle/Signature 23:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right, "Unification or Death!" was formed primarily to fight against IMRO and only secondarily against Austria-Hungary, so Serbian success in the Balkans Wars (partly through ethnic cleansing) is a major contribution of the organization. If you know a lot about it, please write about it not just in the consequences section but in the earlier parts. I am just sticking to what I am an expert on, from 1913 on, where the focus of the remnants of the moribund "Unification or Death!" was on the destruction of Austria-Hungary. When I saw the glaring errors, such as Apis being exiled, instead of put to death as he was, I couldn't leave it be. But really, someone else needs to correct the early years. Even "Unification or Death"'s victory in the parliament momentarily throwing out Pasic in May 1914 is better written about by someone else.

Werchovsky 20:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, most resources on Union or Death are part of larger WWI resources, so they inevitable look at it only as the spark of the European powderkeg. User:RideABicycle/Signature 04:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense being added by the same user again and again

Please take a look at the following statement, inserted over five times by the same user all of the territories containing Yugoslav populations (Croats, Serbs, Slovenes, etc) annexed by Austria-Hungary in October 1908. As anyone with even a basic knowledge of Yugoslav history knows, this statement is complete rubbish. Slovenia became a part of the Austrian empire almost 1000 years before 1908, Croatia many hundreds of years before. The area that was annexed by Austria-Hungary in 1908 was present-day Bosnia. The original statement in the article makes this clear, stating that we're talking about Bosnia. However, th anonymous user replaces this correct statement with his own nonsense. As all the user is doing on Wikipedia is pushinh his own view of Yugoslav history (virtually all his edits are on Yugoslav history, most of the time with an aggresive Yugoslav POV-pushing), his edit is not surprising - but it's wrong, POV and bordering on vandalism to insert the same nonsense over and over again.JdeJ 04:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Please stop inserting your own opinion into this article. AUSTRIA HUNGARY DID NOT EXIST FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.. You have no clue about history... Slovenia being admitted 1000 years before and Croatia "hundres of years before"??? Please stop with your false, uninformed edits to this article. Read about Ilirski Pokret, the yugoslav committee, and about croats and slovenes being unhappy in the austro-hungarian empire.. Serbs, along with Bosnian muslims, also being interested in a state that unified all south slavs (jugosloveni, jugoslaveni, jugoslovani)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.151.129.28 (talk • contribs) 14:36 1 June 2007.

To begin with, your accusations are verging on the silly. I'm not inserting any opinion of my own, I'm merely reverting the page to its previous form, created by other contributors. And it seems you don't understand what the problem is. Nobody denies any of the facts you mention, about Iliriski Pokret, Croats and Slovenes in Austria-Hungary etc. The problem is that in your Yugoslav POV-pushing, you're so eager to replace facts with your own views that you don't even take the time to read through the results of your edits. In this article you're not only violating history, you're also abusing the English language.

Let me ask you a few simple questions here

1. Was Slovenia annexed by Austria-Hungary in 1908?

2. Was Croatia annexed by Austria-Hungary in 1908?

3. Was there a significant Slovene population living in Bosnia prior to 1908?

You know as well as I do that the answer to all three questions is no, yet you continue to revert to your own version stating exactly that. I think you're not even aware of it, since you probably never took the time to read through it. And no offence intended, but you do seem to have a problem with the English language. I never claimed Austria-Hungary existed for 'thousands of years', and it's a well-known fact that the Slovenian lands came under German domination around 1300. If you revert to your made-up version again, please take the time to inform us which of the three questions above that you want to answer yes to. JdeJ 18:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

you are claiming that the austro-hungarian empire existed for 1000 years, clearly you are uninformed. That croatia was part of this empire for "hundreds of years", and that yugoslavia was only the interest of the serbs. You are very incorrect. The date you keep mentioning has nothing to do with the fact that croats and slovenes alike sought independence from austro-hungary because of suppression, but you are also claiming that the black hand was an organization for aiming at greater serbia, very wrong. The Black hand was formed in response to austro-hungary's unfairness , and its inhabitans were witnesses of unfair treatment since administration by the empire in 1878. Gavrilo, who was part of the group, after killing franz ferdinand and his wife in sarajevo, stated "I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria."—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Reisender (talk • contribs) 15:06 1 June 2007.

Ps I have made the article more historically accurate, as it now mentions that the black hand was financed by serbia and that their intention was to not only unify serbs, but the rest of the yugoslav population as well..

User:Spiramind

Spiramind added blatant advertisings on a band called "Black Hand." There seem to be many pop-culture references to Black Hand (specifically Sarajevo), and there should be a program to determine what is significant enough to be included in this page, and even if something should get its own page. However, we must also keep at the front of out minds the fact that any pop-culture references to Black Hand must be DIRECTLY referring to Black Hand/Union or Death. Just because "Black Hand" is the name of a faction in a computer game does not mean that it deserves to be here. Perhaps the same factoid could be included in the computer game's page. I also propose that and pop culture references which originate from a band, book, etc. that does not have its own Wikipedia page be removed from Black Hand. User:RideABicycle/Signature 18:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I wouldn't mind removing the pop culture references entirely even. --Michael Lynn 20:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

That may be to only way to do it. Perhaps we should cut the section. How about we cut pop-culture by August 7th if there are no further objections? User:RideABicycle/Signature 01:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, i think the article will be stronger without it... --Michael Lynn 03:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Popular Culture

In Francis Ford Coppola's The Godfather Part II, Don Fanucci, the local mafiosa, is referred to as being "..with the Black Hand" by Genco Abbandando, a friend of the young Vito Corleone.

This sentence is removed because the Black Hand in the movie - The Godfather Part II, is connect with to this organization: Black Hand (extortion), or La Mano Nera in Italian, was a type of extortion racket, gangsters of Camorra and the Mafia practiced it. The roots of the Black Hand can be traced to Sicily and throughout the rest of Kingdom of Naples as early as the 1750s. -Gaston28 - 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Thanks for clearing that up. User:RideABicycle/Signature 23:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Mistake in text

"Black Hand" was never finansed by Serbia,but their members were some of the most influental Serbian officiers.Acctually the same group organised murder of Serbian king in 1903 (Alexandar Obrenovic)and tried to do the same in 1917. (Petar Karadjordjevic).After recieving those informations all members were arrested and send to jail exept the leaders which were sentesed to death.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.78.94 (talk) 00:05, August 29, 2007 (UTC) 

Azania

"Major Tankosic died in November 1915 covering the Serbian retreat, but not before confessing his role in the assassination to historians at Azania."

What Azania is this? I found no references to such a place or establishment in Serbia, or elsewhere in Europe. — Itai (talk) 08:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture

Since most of the information in this section has nothing to do with the actual subject of this article, and those that do are only vaguely relevant, I suggest this entire section be deleted, and a hidden comment be inserted saying not to create a new "pop culture" section. Thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree; none of these references tell the reader anything notable about the Serbian organization, and only the The West Wing example puts the reference in any sort of context. I say remove with prejudice. скоморохъ 03:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

About the Italian criminal organization best known as Black Hand, I think we should create a page. Prior to the creation of the Serbian military organization, it was well known in the US and Europe. Take a look at this American weekly, The Independent (March 18, 1909). http://cgi.ebay.com/Camorra-Black-Hand-Murder-Petrosino-1909-Texas-Lynching_W0QQitemZ300210830523QQihZ020QQcategoryZ280QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem --Jackblues 20:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

language

"toughly worded letter" is a clumsy way to put what was intended, seen as toughly as far as i know isn't even a word. i'm not sure what to change it to so i am making people aware of it so they can change it, maybe i'm being petty. (DrewCrawshaw (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrewCrawshaw (talk • contribs) 15:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

in fact that whole sentence might need to be changed,

"On July 23rd, Austria-Hungary delivered a toughly worded letter to Serbia with ten enumerated demands and additional demands in the preamble aimed at the destruction of the anti-Austrian terrorist and propaganda network in Serbia"

if it wasn't for the relatively simple subject matter it would descend into almost complete nonsense.

(DrewCrawshaw (talk) 15:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC))

can the neologism triplice be replaced by triumvirate, it seems more appropriate. (DrewCrawshaw (talk) 15:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC))

"Most of the underground railroad that transported them were also arrested, tried, and convicted"

Eh?