Talk:Croatian War of Independence

Yugoslav Civil War

Hello people. I don't edit articles much here, but I have a proposal to make. Please dont dismiss it or ignore it idmediatly, I believe it is a logical idea. When the SFRJ broke up, a lot of the successor states had been fighting eathother at simultaneous times. The war for independence in Croatia happened at the same time during the war in Bosnia, both took place at least 3-4 years simultaneously. In the real world, many people consider the wars in the former SFRJ as a single, Yugoslav Civil War; which contained its important parts, like the Croatian war of independence, the Bosnian war, and the war in Slovenia. However, at the moment, Wikipedia does not offer a good, single, organized page on the whole, Yugoslav civil war in which all the events that took place in the SFRJ from 1991-1995 would be listed. The page Yugoslav wars is too chronogically broad in my opinion; it basically combines several wars from 1991 to 2001 (in which some were very different) and considered it one, single war. Violence wasn't continous in the 1990s, it was on-and-off; that era should not be considered as the times of a single war. At the same time, these articles like Slovenian War of Independence, Croatian war of independence, and the Bosnian war all happened in the same era of violence in the same dissolution of the same former state. In my opinion, all of those "wars" make up what was the Yugoslav Civil War, not seperate wars. I believe that these articles should either be merged or be connected to some sort of new article that explains the happenings of the Yugoslav Civil War. That war cannot go ignored and be seperated into other wars and wars from the wrong eras. Opinions are welcome, reply to me when you can. Zastavafan76 20:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, these wars were known as Serbian aggression (on Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina).
That wasn't civil war.
That was Serbia's military attempt to conquer and annex the whole territories of republics that declared independence. Later those goals decreased a little, because of unexpected unsuccesful turn of events on the battlefield: weakly armed countries somehow defended parts of their countries, so GreaterSerbianists have adjusted their appetites on the controlled/conquered territory of neighbouring countries. Kubura 18:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Well....doesn't that mean it should be classified as a single war then? My point was that there should be a single, large article about the war from 1991-1995 because the violence in the different successor states happened at the same time. Because at the moment, wiki only offers articles about the war of independence in croatia, then in slovenia, the war in bosnia....but there is no good article that combines those happenings in to what was the war. Without that, it would be like classifying World War 2 as The War in Europe, the War in Africa, The War in Asia and so on....to me it doesn't make much sense to seperate the fightings in the Yugoslav wars from 1991-1995. Since you say yourself, it was a single war, so there should be a single article that covers it, not like 5 or something. And when that happens, the name of the article would be determined by those who know how to classify which types of war would be appropriate to call the war tha happened. Zastavafan76 20:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

OK Laughing man

I dont seem to work well with you and when Mr Duja came instead of you we had a compromise that i am very pleased with, now my next step is to try and change the fact that it wasnt simply a war. Im trying to give the type of war it was. This is NPOV. The JNA, Republik of Serb Krajina started the war through their aggression on CROATIAN SOIL. This is NPOV.

I dont see the problem in displaying NPOV, truthful information

THE MILJAKINATOR 21:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

If you think your most recent edit [1] is "NPOV TRUTH", then you either have some serious issues or are simply trolling. // Laughing Man 21:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well tell me then mr laughing man, wat is wrong, ive sed wat i believe now why dont u give me reasons. ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY THAT THE CROATS WERE AGGRESSORS!!!! LOL. Oh Laughing man you make me laugh!! Give me a reason please why not to.

May i remind you that just because some things dont push a rosy serb version of events or puts Serbia in a slightly lesser light, doesnt make that information POV

Regards,THE MILJAKINATOR 09:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not "trying to say" anything. You are the one that is trying to change war to greater Serbian aggression. Please keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia article not a soapbox, and this change in no way even resembles an attempt at a more neutral point of view, and actually is just the opposite. // Laughing Man 15:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I also think it should say "war" instead of "greater Serbian aggression". The reason it should say "war" is because the introduction is supposed to sum up the whole article, so that part definitely should state that this was a war - since that's what is was, a war (pretty simple). Also, if you state it was an "aggression" that leaves it quite ambiguous, because states can show aggression without actually having a war. Also, "greater Serbian aggression" is POV because those words seem to say that it was every Serb that started the war (or "aggression" as THE MILJAKINATOR wants to put it) and every Serb took part in the war. I'd suggest re-wording it into something like "a war to create a greater Serbia", but I don't think that's necessary because I think the last version by Laughing Man is right, as "war" seems very appropriate for the intro. - Ivan K 08:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine, truce, leave it at war. THE MILJAKINATOR 11:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Modified Intro

Changed

The Croatian side aimed to establish sovereignty for the Republic of Croatia, previously a socialist republic in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, while Serbs wanted to stay in Yugoslavia, effectively seeking new boundaries in parts of Croatia with a Serb majority or with influential Serbian minority. The war was striking for its brutality in a relatively developed society in Europe, and in modern times.

to

The Croatian side aimed to establish sovereignty for the Republic of Croatia, previously a socialist republic in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, while Serbs did not want to stay in an independent Croatia, effectively seeking new boundaries in parts of Croatia with a Serb majority or with influential Serbian minority. This view reflected the desire of the Serb elite to unite all Serbs on the territory of the former Yugoslavia into one state, effectively creating a Greater Serbia, an objective consistent with the Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts. The war was striking for its brutality in a relatively developed society in Europe, and in modern times.

because the Badinter Arbitration Committee had found that Yugoslavia had effectively ceased to exist by virtue of the federal institutions no longer functioning, thus it is difficult for the Serbs to stay in a country that effectively no longer existed. This is particularly so when it is considered that the SFRJ was a country was defined by it's federalist structure and the attempt to redraw Republic boundaries went against the very reason for the country's initial existence.

As such, I have redefined the Serbs aim as not staying in an independent Croatia and added a couple wikipedia links that are relevant. iruka 07:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it's not NPOV. First, the Memorandum is more a semi-mythic accusation of "new Serbian version of Mein Kampf" than a document of profound political weight; it's too undue weight to be put in the intro and I doubt any of the rebel Croatian Serbs even read it. Second, and more important, the entire change is the classic example of poisoning the well: you put the POV-reasoning for the war into Serbs' mouths en general, while in reality their motives ranged from genuine concerns for their status change in independent Croatia to chauvinistic calls for Greater Serbia and ethnic cleansing for Croats. Duja► 10:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Legitimate point about the avg Croat Serb not necessarily reading the document, but there are two parralel streams at work here. One is the loss of privelage of many Serbs in the civil service where communist party members (many Serbs) were replaced with HDZ apparatchiks (both dissidents and converted Socialists) which has more to do with consolidating power than with any anti-Serb animus.

The other is the memorandum, the underlying political views (Serbs status of oppressed in Yugoslavia, implied redrawing of Republic boundaries etc) were adopted by Milosevic (most famously reflected in his speech at Kosovo polje) and implemented by his cronies among the Croatian Serbs, most notably Babic and Hadzic, and inculcated into the Croatian Serbs leading to seeking solutions outside the framework of the Croatian republic including force and the use of the JNA, versus negotiations with the newly elected Croatian govt that Pupovac, and to a lesser degree Raskovic seemed to prefer.

The memorandum was signifcant in propogating the myth that the Serbs were victims of Yugoslavia and treated badly in SR Croatia (ignoring their privelaged position by virtue of communist party membership). The memorandum quantified the prevaling policy goal of the Serb elite for much of Serbia's existence since it's reinstatement as a state in the 19th century?(all Serbs in one state) and is a view which still prevails today aong sections of the Serb state elite - just the means to achieving it has changed; its core principles was adopted by Milosevic, a key player in the Balkans during the 1990's. In this context, the memorandum carrys alot of weight as it codified one of the most significant forces driving the conflicts. This does not deflect the legitimate concerns of Croatian Serbs at the time, but in the world of real politik, the memorandum's text was of greater significance and influence. iruka 00:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps rewrite:

The Croatian side aimed to establish sovereignty for the Republic of Croatia, previously a socialist republic in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, while Serbs did not want to stay in an independent Croatia, effectively seeking new boundaries in parts of Croatia with a Serb majority or with influential Serbian minority. This view reflected the desire of the Serb elite to unite all Serbs on the territory of the former Yugoslavia into one state, effectively creating a Greater Serbia, an objective consistent with the Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts. The war was striking for its brutality in a relatively developed society in Europe, and in modern times.

to

The Croatian side aimed to establish sovereignty for the Republic of Croatia, previously a socialist republic in Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, while Serbs did not want to stay in an independent Croatia, effectively seeking new boundaries in parts of Croatia with a Serb majority or with influential Serbian minority. Whilst many Croatian Serbs expressed legitimate concerns over loss of status as part of the fallout from moves by the newly elected governments attenpt to replace communist party appointees with their own party loyalists in the civil service; the approach to seek solutions outside the Croatian state was driven by local leaders heavily influenced by a policy goal of the Serb Republic elite to unite all Serbs on the territory of the former Yugoslavia into one state, effectively creating a Greater Serbia, an objective consistent with the Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts. The war was striking for its brutality in a relatively developed society in Europe, and in modern times. ??

iruka 00:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

My point is, the memorandum has nothing to do in the intro at all. It's scope, intent and consequences are controversial at best and mostly irrelevant to the subject of this article. "An objective consistent with the memorandum" is an original research at best. I maintain that consequences of the memorandum were later overblown to mythical dimensions. While I don't endorse its contents, any neutral reader of it would conclude that it's a nationalistic document expressing somewhat overblown concerns for the position of Serbs in former Yugoslavia, and it doesn't even hint at the creation of Greater Serbia. In my opinion, it was more the product of the nationalist atmosphere that was "being cooked" in Serbia, with academics being first to openly speak on what was on many people's minds, rather than the cause of such atmosphere. It was abused later in a similar way as Zion Protocols. Duja► 15:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Duja, appreciate the response. I see a number of different issues with the intro and will address under separate headings:

Reference to Yugoslavia

The intro as it stands is disingenuos because as explained in previous post, Yugoslavia ceased to exist according to the Badinter Arbitration Committee and the very notion of SFRJ (a federation of equal nations) would not exist under the Serb elites proposal. Hence I suggest that the intro be reworded to state that the Serbs wanted to live in a Serbian state or the Serbs did not want to live in Croatia. I think the latter reference is more appropriate. iruka 21:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Reference to Greater Serbia or United Serb States

I think that there should be mention of this because the current intro does not capture the main thematic that has plagued Croat-Serb relations for approximately last 100 years, and that is disparate notions of territorial delineation. It has always been a policy goal of Serbia since it overthrew Turkish rule to expand it's boundaries to include the "western territories". This policy is most visible in the platform of groups like the Black Hand, the negotiations for the spoils of war after WW1 and the lead up to the first Yugoslavia. It was also a source of the tension with Austria Hungary that had annexed BiH. This policy is captured by various documents from Ilija Garašanin's Načertanije (1844)) to the Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts and the plans differed ranging from Milosevic's plan of utilising the guise of ensuring "Yugoslav's territorial integrity" to the more transparent plans of Draskovic and Seselj with the notion of a Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag border. Even the indictment of the ICTY againstMilan Babic [[2]] talks of a joint criminal enterprise was the permanent forcible removal of the majority of the Croat and other non-Serb population from approximately one-third of the territory of the Republic of Croatia ("Croatia"), in order to make them part of a new Serb-dominated state. I think there should be a reference to the policy goal of "Uniting all Serbs in one State". iruka 21:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Relevance of Memorandum

I agree the memorandum captured the thinking of the Serb political elite at the time and that is why it is important to mention it. It is this notion of persecution and disparate concepts of each others states captured in the document that underlied the conflict. The inflammatory language was merely a means to an end.

I also don't see how the Zion Protocols is related which is a hoax and is essentially anti-semitic. The Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts actually exists and is not Serbophobic - but it is rather isolationist, ethnocentric in it's assesments, and almost paranoid in the manner it ascribes political motives and causality to certain statistics. As such, the memorandum was not open to abuse, but helped create a framework for funnelling grievances (imagined and real) and propagating such abuse. It did this by promoting a victim complex among Serbs, and demonising the Croats (by ascribing unfavourble demographic changes as a a sophisticated and quite effective policy of assimilation) and labelling Kosovar Albanian politics as chauvanistic. Finally it makes many references to how many Serbs live outside of Serbia proper (why? to what end?) and concludes the need to have decisively implemented reform of the entire governmental structure and social organization of the Yugoslav community of nations. I think there should be some reference, if not to the memorandum, then to the prevaling political paradim dominating the Serb elites. iruka 21:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You're addressing a series of fairly complex questions. Some of those are covered in this article; others are in Slobodan Milošević, Yugoslav wars, Greater Serbia and Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (somewhat oddly, Greater Serbia contains more info about Memorandum than the last article, so perhaps those should be backmerged). Not all are covered in satisfactory manner, I agree. But I still think that the intro of this article is not the place for such elaboration; many aspects of it are already covered (while some tweaking is called for, like "Uniting all Serbs in one State" policy you refer to). Look, what if the intro sounded like:

...the war was caused by the Croatian attempt at secession from Yugoslavia and outlawing all Croatian Serbs' constitutional rights. The Croatian politicians attempted to revive the spirit of the nazi-puppet Independent State of Croatia, stating that it was the "expression of thousand-years wishes of Croatian people"<ref Tuđman's speech>, which was profoundly feared by Serbs, who were mass-executed in concentration camps like Jasenovac during World War II.

(I'm just hypothesizing, I don't think it should be in the intro). Oh, I got an idea... checking... yes, something very similar to that, of course, is in sr wiki article. Something similar to your version is, of course as well, in hr wiki article. Let's keep it NPOV as possible and stick to the facts, OK? Duja► 13:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand your example but I think it lacks relevance to the changes I propose and is somewhat of a red herring because what I am advocating shouldn't be construed as POV. How is it POV to state that the underlying tension is over overlapping concepts of territorial delineation? - this is backed up by policy documents(nacrtanje etc), court decisons (ICTY indictments), speeches explicitly outlining policy goals (Vuk Draskovic, Tomislav Nikolic, Vojislav Seslj) with it possible for the roles of the individuals giving these speeches to be cross-referenced to where they sat in the 'food chain' at the time - all things that can be scrutinised.

The notions you have given in your example on the other hand, involves an interpretation of the constitution, an assumption of the Croat government's policy goals and imputing it's motives, and selective use of history.

As the article stands, the conflict is reduced to a battle between those wanting to preserve the federal state versus a region that wants to seccede. This should be changed to reflect that the federation disintegrated because of competing republic interests (and the loss of balance between unitarists and federalists which were really proxies for the autonomy vs united serb state positions) with differing concepts of delineation leading to conflict.

Supporting this notion is the federal nature of SFRJ, the history of Croatia as a crown land, the conclusions of the bandinter commission. The fact that only Montenegro was willing to stay in a modified union with Serbia (with Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, BiH the republics that succeded and the SR Serbia autonomous province of Kosovo also secceding) also signifies the fear of Serbian dominance in any modified union without the federal framework of the then defunct SFRJ.

Thus I propose that in the intro be reworded to state that the the Serbs did not want to stay in an newly independent Croatia. There should also be mention of the United Serb States idea being the dominant political paradigm in neighbouring SR Serbia which would require a redrawing of republican boundaries and that it was a platform that was adopted by Croatian Serb institutions as a result of pro-Milosevic leader being installed. (akin to the installation of Boban in Herceg-Bosnia). Do you consider this NPOV/POV and why? iruka 01:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You're slightly wrong - it depends. Not all of Croatia wanted to secede, a large portion of its population didn't want to. Also, Macedonia's original desire wasn't to secede either (it generally supported Milosevic), while Montenegro's original desire was independence, for example. Also, the factual notion of Bosnia and Herzegovina's secession could also be easily discussed - constitutionally, the referendum for independence failed, and a very large of the Bosnian populace didn't want independence of the Republic. I also see absolutely no visible relevance of Nacertanije with the 1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence :D. Also, even though Vuk Draskovic himself was/could be one of those persons like Seselj, Moljevic or Jovic, he surely does not belong to the same category. Presenting "Kosovo seceding" makes the way like everyone was running from Belgrade - but they weren't. The Croats of Herzeg-Bosnia wanted their own country away from Sarajevo, so did the Serbs. The Croatian Serbs wanted to be free of Zagreb. The Bosnian western Muslims opposed the Bosniac extremist authorities in Sarajevo. The Albanians of Macedonia didn't want to be in Skopje... other notions are there - Sanjak from Podgorica/Belgrade... it's all separatism caused by the disappearing of Tito. "United Serb States" would be Original research and the key fact is that Serbs wanted to stay in Yugoslavia, and not stay in Croatia. --PaxEquilibrium 17:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You are using are few weasal words there aren't you? ;) Re Croatian independence, of course not all (implying 100%) will be in favour. And a large portion of the population - what does this mean? 20% 30%. If we look at the statistics then we will know that 83.56 percent of the electorate had taken part in the referendum and out of that number 94.17 percent were in favour of a sovereign and independent Croatia [[3]]. Considering the number of areas that were blockaded by local Serb militias & JNA preventing affected Serbs & Croats from voting (covering roughly 14% of the population), this is almost close to a full turnout. What is also significant is that from the precentages, we know alot Serbs in Croatian cities not under the JNA'S control would have voted for independence as well. Thus we have the statistic that approx 94% of those that voted, voted for independence translating into 79% of eligible voters voting for independence - a resounding result by any benchmark - stronger than the 55% in Montenegro and 66% in BiH.

Note also, in most of the referendums for the republics and autonomous provinces - Croatia, BiH, Montenegro, Kosovo, it is the Serb minority that is the dominant group that voted against independence. This is fundamental to the notion of the problem that x million Serbs live outside Serbia representing the fragmentation of the Serb nation (as per the memorandum) which in turn leads to the solution of uniting Serbs in one state. iruka 02:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Weasel words? Where? Please point out. Fifteen percent opposing might be a small percentage, but not so for a population territorially living on thirty percent of the whole state. And was I denying that the Croatian independence referendum failed? No. I said that the referendum for independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina failed (and thus, to my opinion, Serbia, Montenegro & BH could've really kept a little Yugoslavia themselves), but due to declared dissolution of SFRY after one half had already seceded, it became "illegally & unconstitutionally" independent. It was below 66% in BH.

Why are you generalizing about the Serbs. Actually, what's the point of that notion in the first place? --PaxEquilibrium 01:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Vis a vie Draskovic, he may or may not be in the same category (on economic/social issues) as the other politicians named, but on the issue of expanding Serbia's borders westward to incorporate BiH & most of Croatia, his positions were virtually the same as Seselj, Milosevic et al. His Serbian Renewal Party, like the Serbian Radicals etc had it's own militia. Refer to the following ICTY evidence which covers not just Draskovic's role but includes an analysis of Moljevic's and Nedic's plans from 1941 for a Greater Serbia and Jovan Raskovic's (leader of Croatian Serbs) support for such plans, as well as analysis of different political parties and their geographical distribution - [[4]] iruka 02:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It is true that he dispatched units to fight, but did they go for an evil cause? No. They went to defend Serb civilians from ethnic cleansing and discrimination. Fighting for one's rights can hardly be called mean. The Democratic Party of Serbia abandoned the Democratic Party plainly because it was for an establishment of a different Yugoslav, possibly Serb-dominated state (and of course, even it dispatched volunteers). The DSS leader is the today's Premier of Serbia (Vojislav Kostunica). Compare his speech in eastern Republika Srpska 1992 alluding to a Greater Serbian state to Stjepan Mesic's fascist speeches from 1991. It would be foolish not to claim that the other peoples (most notably Croats) have had similar sympathies (Herzeg-Bosnian Croats, "Greater Croatia"). And lastly, even you'll agree to this: in 1991, no one expected that there will be a time (like after June of 2006) that all republics of Yugoslavia would be independent countries - back to Vlk - the only actually bad thing that I see in him is that he said to the international media in the late 1990s that that no organized genocide was being committed against the Albanians (despite the possibility that he perhaps might've been even correct at that one) - he indeed stated subsequently after Milosevic's fall that atrocities were committed against the Albanians. All in all, Vuk Draskovic was compared to Slobodan Milosevic, a symbol of democracy and the leader of the opposition, and as such - despite the fact that he himself is a Serbian (positive?) nationalist - I think that he cannot be tagged simply "bad". Stipe, the President of Croatia, could've been/could be stiled as ultra-nationalist/racist even, as he even now alluded to a Greater Croat state. Note that Stipe I greatly admire (in many ways). The (ruling) Croatian Democratic Union might be styled as an ultra-nationalist and is quite possibly an irredentist one - imagine if the Socialist Party of Serbia and the Serbian Radical Party returned to power in Serbia - that would be (almost) the same. --PaxEquilibrium 01:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The HDZ was initally a movement, a coalition of different factions. It was nationalist b/c it need to be for the Republic to survive the war & mobilise relevant resources to counter the threat from Serbia. Now that the war is over & indpendence assured, the HDZ has become a regular political party, of the Christian Democrat/ Conservative persuasion, with it's headline policy EU Integration and macroeconomic management (actually not too bad in the later). Compare this to the Radicals & their nationalist campaigns centred on Kosovo. Your analogy is thus an erroneous one as you are comparing apples and oranges.

When did Mesic make a fascist speech? You are not referring to one where he refers to Croatia winning twice - one with recognition of the NDH, & then again with the victory of the anti-fascists and the formation of SR Croatia. All he is referring to it global dipplomatic recognition from both Axis & Allies for disparate iterations of the Croat state @ the start & end of WW2. Certainly a novel interpretation if you see that as fascist - I think you maybe seeing things which aren't there. Mesic is the anti-thesis of a nationalist - he has appeared @ the ICTY as a witness; retired nationalist generals; reciprocated Marovic?'s apology in his historic state visit to Serbia (note he made the effort to visit Serbia to break the ice). If anything, Mesic is pro-Serb minority and an internationalist, with a strong Partisan heritage. iruka 17:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The smaller seccessionist/autonomist movements did exist, but you miss the overall picture. That is, with Slovenia and Croatia leaving the now defunct federation, the other republics like Macedonia and BiH (backed by an absolute majority of the voting population) chose not to stay in a revised union with Serbia. And those seccessionist/autonomist movements like Herceg Bosnia, Fikret Abdic's Western Bosnia, Macedonia's Albanians did not envisage "staying in Yugoslavia" but either going alone, existing as an autonomous entity within BiH or joining compatriots in Croatia and Albania respectively. It should also be remembered that most of these movements had two or more streams of thought ranging from militant seccession to autonomy within the state structure. iruka 02:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

"Defunct"? The Federation became defunct only after Slovenia, Croatia and Macedonia seceded. Even as a "rump" one, it was very much functioning. I already said that the referendum in BH failed. What do you mean by "revised". And it was not choice "with Serbia", but "together". It's not a union of "Serbia and the rest", but of six equal constituent republics. --PaxEquilibrium 01:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The federation became defunct as soon as Milosevic usurped the autonomy of Vojvodina & Kosovo, deadlocking federal institutions that ceased to function. Also raiding the federal treasury also didn't help, given Markovac's success in stabilising inflation.

By what criteria did the BH referendum failed - the turnout in the referendum was 64-67% and the vote was 99.43% in favor of independence. iruka 17:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

As for United Serb States being original research, consider the following reputable media and international criminal court sources:

• From Institute for War & Peace Reporting - Tieger also presented Krajisnik with an interview that he gave to the Srpsko Oslobodjenje newspaper during the war, in which he spoke of a future in which united Serb states would have Belgrade as their capital. [[5]]
• Article by Vreme News Digest the war option had priority and the dream of the "United Serb States" was within reach, so that all sufferings could be borne and all means justified. None asked why Serbs across the Drina River were fighting and leaving their homes in order to come to Serbia [[6]] & It was thus made clear to disoriented people of Krajina that the official Belgrade does not intend to abandon the concept of the United Serb States [[7]]

The term Greater Serbia which alludes to the same result of uniting Serbs in one country is covered in the following media -

• pbs [[8]]
• BBC (Djukanovic speech) [[9]] & (Seselj speech) [[10]] & (Nikolic statement) [[11]] & (Yugoslavia timeline) [[12]]
• IWPR [[13]]

From the ICTY [[14]], transcript from ICTY session discussing whether Greater Serbia implies ethnic cleansing [[15]], & The Reports of Mr Mazowiecki give a clear account of the policy of the so-called "ethnic cleansing" consistently employed by the FRY for the purpose of creating a Greater Serbia by the forceful incorporation of the parts of territory of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina into a Greater Serbia. For instance, his third Report of November 1992 further describes the methods used for "ethnic cleansing" and states: "This lends credence to the fear that the ultimate goal may be to incorporate Serbian-occupied areas of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina into a ‘Greater Serbia’." (UN Doc. A/47/666, para. 13.) [[16]]. iruka 02:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Still, there's no plan for a country called "United Serb states" (alluding to the United States of America). --PaxEquilibrium 01:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Whatever the tag - Greater Serbia, United Serb States, "Preserving Yugoslavia" - it all amounted to the same outcome -> territorial expansion of the Socialist Republic of Serbia. iruka 17:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Serbs wanting to stay in Yugoslavia, this is disingenuoous because it was only Serbs that wanted to "stay in Yugoslavia" without defining what that Yugoslavia meant and how it had changed. The statement does not reflect that the underlying policy objective was to unite Serbs in one state. Note also, that Yugoslavia ceased to exist i.e. the federation that was SFRJ no longer functioned (as indicated by the EU's Bandinter commission; by Mesic's non-election as the President of the presidency of Yugoslavia; and the revoking of autonomy of Vojvodina and Kosovo) and the Yugoslavia that the Serbs wanted to stay in was in effect an enlarged Serb state, a fact acknowledged in the media sources supplied, by the ICTY, and Serb politicians such as Seselj, Draskovic et al. This is not in question - what differs is the legitimacy of such a political venture and the reasons for it's inception. iruka 02:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That's something like words-tricking. :) There was no need to create a Serb unified state, ("Greater Serbia"), because such a state already existed - SFRY was this "Greater Serbia". The Croatian Serbs wanted to remain in this state, rather than "transfer" to a newly-created one (an independent Republic of Croatia). --PaxEquilibrium 01:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting view & would be supported by some. But there is one fallacy - Yugoslavia could not be a Greater Serbia b/c it was a federation of autonomous republics & the Croatian Serbs were part of the Croatian republic, just as the had been part of the NDH, the Banovina Hrvatska before it & the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia/Triune kingdom before that. The socialist republics had there own symbols, parliaments, and had considerable sway over economic management.

There certainly was a unitarist faction (nominally Serbian), that intially was led by Rankovic. Milosevic was just the latest in a line of unsuccessful unitarists that wanted to rollback the federal foundation of the state. Why unsuccessful, b/c w/o the federal model, no nation wanted to be in a joint state with Serbia b/c of it's Greater Serbia politics - as it was poignantly demonstarted with the republics voting with their feet - first Slovenia, Croatia, then BiH, Macedonia, then CG then finally the quasi-republic Kosovo. iruka 17:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

700,000?

The article has over 700,000 displaced by 1991 on the Croatian side. This seems somewhat overestimating. As far as I recall over 200,000 Croats had to flee and were subject to brutal ethnic cleansing in 1991-1992 according to most sources (including the UN). The Croatian overestimate (I believe mainly because of nationalism) is over half a million, tops 550,000; but that had been refuted because it counted all citizens of Croatia displaced and it counted refugees that came to Croatia (mostly from BH). After all that 700,000 seems a bit... odd; as far as I remember the Serbian nationalistic overestimate was - exactly that (for Serbs ethnically cleansed) - but considering that the Croatian highest claim is 500,000-550,000 - this breaches the roof. No offense intended to the victims, I just think that we should have sources - as the source given bears no reference to this figure at all. --PaxEquilibrium 17:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete it. Reference is broken. I guess I added the number (since I created the infobox) and I really can't remember where I got that number from and why I put this link as source. Sorry for inconvenience. --Dijxtra 18:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Eeh.. I'm not sure I'm going to tag it false since you're the one who added it... --PaxEquilibrium 22:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Man, you really should be WP:BOLDer. --Dijxtra 22:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I will, when it's needed to. --PaxEquilibrium 13:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Revert war

Look Kubura, you may have some points but the methods you emply are unacceptable. You're blindly reverting to an old version while many things are changed in the meantime, and do too much collateral damage. As much as the previous insistence on the term "Krajina Serbs" (which I cleaned up) is unacceptable, so is your insistence on "rebel Serbs". The figure of 700,000 refugees is disputed and dismissed right above in this talk. If you want to contest that, you're welcome, but articles have talk pages to discuss changes. Plus, your edit summaries are misleading: "(Sources removed? "Unsuccesful operation"?)" for a total revert. Duja► 12:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It'll take more than few lines to put all reasons into a summary.
Medak Pocket is an "unsuccesful operation"? Really? Or someone here can't live with the defeat?
Removing of sources that I put there? I won't tolerate that.
Proper word is "rebelled Serbs". "Krajina Serbs"? No. Krajina is a name of bunch of Croatian areas (Imotska, Cetinska, Sinjska, Drniška, Vrgoračka...). Rebel Serb-controlled areas encompassed more regions of Croatia, not only one. Kubura 10:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

"Or someone here can't live with defeat"? Thanks for an ad hominem attack.

I don't care whether Operation Medak pocket is successful or not, but it did damage to Croatia's reputation. If you disagree with the assessment, rephrase or remove. That doesn't mean you should revert entire article.

Removing on which sources? If you mean this one, it doesn't contain the number (anymore), and it was apparently malformed, not pointing to any specific page. If you take a look at discussion above, you'll see it's dismissed.

The proper word is not "rebelled Serbs", as it was not "Krajina Serbs" either, which I cleared up but you reverted anyway. Duja► 10:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The official Croatian expression is "rebelled Serbs". Kubura 10:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Successful or not? Well, to shorten: who gives a damn about the opinion of the rest of the world, when you've liberated your country and beaten your enemy. At least, that should be clear to you.
After the Operation Medak pocket, Gospić was relieved from pressure, and there weren't artillery attacks as it was before the Operation. And that's a lot. Simple, isn't it? Kubura 16:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I suppose, Wikipedia gives a damn about the opinion of the rest of the world, rather than The Truth. "The threshold is verifiability, not truth", but you've probably heard that litany before. Duja► 16:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If it was an usuccessful operation, we, Croats, wouldn't boast about it. Da nije uspila, ne bismo se hvalili. Kubura 10:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Citation needed

This should be referenced:

Also the logistical support from Serbia and Yugoslav Army was building up during this period.Organization of Guerilla force was led by Petar Gracanin as experianced II World War General and later the KOS(Army Contra Espionage Organization)general.

Duja► 13:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Terminology of for the war

Why is the war in Croatia titled "Croatian war of independence"? I just find the term to be somewhat misleading, especially considering the fact that the war in Slovenia only lasted for 10 day and that Macedonia left the federation without any response from the JNA, while the Croatian war raged for months into 1992, or '95. Pluse for me, it's has too much of an American connotation. It gives the impression that the whole conflict started, or revolved around the issue of Croatia's constitutional right in theory, (as enshrined in the 1974 SFRJ constituion) to withdraw from the Yugoslav federation. Does the Serbs' territorial pretentions towards Croatia, or "uniting all Serbs into one state" depending one one's POV another factor to be considered? I propose for a NPOV terminology of either "Croatian war", or "Serb-Croat war" that i consider to be more accurate terms that better reflect how the conflict started, what it was all about etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.132.167.83 (talk • contribs)

Yes, we were there before (and then some) -- check out the archive link at the top. Basically, it was raised before in a good faith, but then the roof collapsed after partisan opinions from both sides; result: no consensus. I'm afraid that the history would repeat if the issue is raised again. Duja► 11:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Homeland war

Why isn't this article called Homeland War, which is its REAL name? The current name is wrong and misleading. I trying to do/edit it myself, but somehow cant do it. --CroDome 13:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

because only Croats call it by that name. So it is real, but only among Croats. + read WP:NPOV --TheFEARgod (Ч) 22:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Commented part

Duja, all, please read.
I've put one unsufficiently defined part into comment, because it wasn't completely correct. Some descriptions aren't in English, but in Croatian. I know about Wiki policy, but this is the only way to present to "interested persons" what I've wanted to say.
Some sections are hard to translate, because of specific historical situations. "Mitinzi Srba i Crnogoraca sa Kosova" don't have good translation with "meetings...", etc..
Na engleskom se možemo objašnjavat i pripucavat 20 dana na 20 strana, nitko neće shvatit. Nićemo se "nać". Ovako, na hrvatskom će ić puno brže. Kubura 10:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

mitinzi Srba i Crnogoraca, s Kosova, demonstracije diljem Srbije, traži se minjanje rukovodstava i dovođenje tada nepoznatog Miloševića
Slobodan dolazi na vlast
mitinzi Srba i Crnogoraca s Kosova, sa ikonografijama koja je bivala sve drskija - počelo se nekažnjeno mahat sa znakovljem koje bi se u ondašnjem sustavu smatralo ekstremnije nacionalističkin i kažnjivin - nacionalni znakovi bez zvizde, slike Karađorđevića, klicanja Rankoviću (o ovome je pisao i Tijanić još onda ), sve otvorenije kritizirat Tita - za isto znakovlje bez socij. oznaka je milicija poj. Hrvatima u to isto vrime doslovno izbila bubrige, primlaćivanja su bila obvezna, jogurt-revolucija u Vojvodini, tek nakon nekoliko godina dolazi do izbora u Hrvatskoj i otvorene nacionalističke retorike
Borisav Jović se čak pritia (bilo je na TV-u) da bi tribalo zabranit te pokušaje izbora, odnosno proglasit ništavnim slobodne izbore u Hrvatskoj

moved by Duja► 14:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I was about to say that those late 1990 events are not sufficiently covered in wikipedia, as you said; hovewer, much to my surprise, I discovered the existence of fairly extensive Breakup of Yugoslavia article, but it's barely wikilinked. I'd like to keep the articles of individual wars more succinct and of narrower scope, and the events preceding it described more thoroughly there. I'd like to move most of the debate about those events there, and add that article to several navigation templates, making it in fact part of {{History of Croatia}} and {{History of Serbia}} series. Duja► 15:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

ARTICLE NAME and Unobjectivity of Term Independence

The name of the article, with no doubt, gives SUBJECTIVE (Croatian war side) name to the complex nature of the article contents. NEUTRALITY OF NAME (one of main Wikipedia postulates for war conflict themes) is here therefore DISPUTED AS UNOBJECTIVE. Reasons: 1. All similar war conflicts (Balkan examples: Bosnia, Slovenia, Kosovo...) could be named for independence by one side in conflict. Neutrality is in that case compleatly lost. As a leading Wikimedia project, English Wikipedia is a place for neutrality and objectivity more than any other one. (in Serbian, in Croatian or in any other language which are de facto less neutral) 2. Previously mentioned conflicts are of reasons of neutrality named only by their territorial determinants and terms like war or conflict, battle etc. Example: Slovenian war. I do not see any difference between Slovenian or Croatian war aims in thoose two formally and historical similar conflicts. (there is no doubt that the aim is - independence). 3. THERE IS ALWAYS ANOTHER SIDE IN WAR. WITH ITS REASONS FOR TAKING PART IN CONFLICT. 4. Proper article title could be therefore also named Croatian war for independance and Serbian war against it. Or maybe Croatian war for independance (from Yugoslavia) and Serbian war for independence (from Croatia). ... 5. Solution: renaming War in Croatia,or Croatian war. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.137.121.235 (talk) 15:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

In your second point you say that it is obviously the aim of both for independance, you admit to that- well you just pointed out yourself what the name is, the name should reflect the main idea or aim is, in this case the independance of Croatia, if the Slovenian war article is that similar, as you yourself stated then perhaps it also should be changed to War of Independance. Yes there is always two sides to every story but stil, no Serb can argue that the main purpose of the war was to defend Croatia- I mean if Croatia fell, it would have no independance, since it defended itself it defended its already proclaimed independance, which was immeadiately and directly being threatened.

It is almost comical the way you say that you should say the article should be called Croatian war for independance and Serbian war against it, since it is a war i think people can take it for granted that another country will be against it. Your second "proper" article title Croatian war for independance (from Yugoslavia) and Serbian war for independence (from Croatia) is also a farce. The first part is correct, Croatia announced its independance from Yugoslavia, but since when did Serbia belong to Croatia and since when was this war detrimental to their independance. It was the Croat's not the Serb's independance that was in danger, it was never in threat in this war. THE MILJAKINATOR 07:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Relatively developed?

I'm having some trouble with the part of the article which claims that the war was striking because of brutality in a relatively developed society. If "relatively developed" isn't referring to, for example, finances or infrastructure (in which case it would be correct, but I fail to see how those things could influence the amount of brutality), it sounds kind of offensive. In the context of the sentence, "relatively developed society" seems to be in reference to mentality or worldview, and that would not only be incorrect but also unacceptable for Wikipedia. Could someone please explain?--Blancodio 00:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

A valid point, yes it was a brutal war, but what exactly is developed society. Seems pretty open ended and open to much subjectivity. It should be removed or worded differently. THE MILJAKINATOR 07:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It seems to imply that brutal warfare is a condition only of "primitive" societies, but a glance at 20th century European history will show that just isn't so. -- ChrisO 08:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Croatian War of Independence (after 1991?)?

Croatia became an independent state in 1991, after braking out from (SFR) Yugoslavia during that year. Thus, during the 1992-1995 period, Croatia was a fully independent and internationally recognized state (a UN member and so forth). In the light of all this, calling the conflict in Croatia after 1991 "Croatian War of Independence" (I am referring to 1992-1995 period) is simply a misnomer (independence from whom?). 'Homeland War' is fine, but the present title is simply a wrong one.--FreedonNadd 02:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I placed the 'disputed factual accuracy' label because the "Croatian war of independence" makes sense as a title only for the first (1991) phase of the war (when Croatian forces were fighting against the Yugoslav army and when Croatia was breaking out of Yugoslavia). Later phases of the war, from 1992 to 1995, cannot be called "war of independence" because Croatia was already an independent state at the time, and that independence was recognized internationally. The 1992-1995 phase of the war was essentially Croatia vs. Serbs in Croatia, or rather Croatian state against its rebellious break-away Serb minority. Calling this phase "war of independence" makes no sense at all (actually, it would make sense for the Serbs in Croatia to call it that, because they were trying to achieve independence from Croatia at the time).--FreedonNadd 20:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed over and over again. Have a read through the archives. It was settled to leave it at this title. 124.186.182.246 05:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It will have to be discussed once again, I'm afraid. The present title of the article does not look right, and I am not convinced that it is an appropriate one. Feel free to present your arguments as to why this article should keep its present title.--FreedonNadd 20:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The present title looks to me like original research. Where is the title "Croatian War of Independence" coming from in the first place? According to the article itself, Croatians are calling the conflict 'Homeland War'; Serbs are calling it 'War in Croatia'; well, who is calling it "Croatian War of Independence" then? I don't recall this name from either western media or history books - I even heard 'Serbo-Croatian War' but never 'Croatian War of Independence'. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia of facts.--FreedonNadd 17:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Croatia's independence was endangered till the end of the war; you might think what could happen if the sanctions against Croatia had been imposed in all areas (besides the arms embargo and the "quiet sanctions" in 1993).
The level of the endangeredness significantly fell after operation Maslenica (1992), more after operation Bljesak (1995), and even more after the capture of Grahovo and Glamoč field.
Still, the danger existed. Imagine what might have been. What if the sanctions against Serbia and Montenegro were lifted? And what if they received help of pro-Serb oriented governments?
It ain't over till it's over.Kubura 18:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

the name should not reflect the "WHAT IF" thing. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 21:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The independence of Croatia was threatened to the very end of the war. If you're "playing dumb" or ignoring facts, then I don't know what to say anymore. It's not "what if", it was the fact.
If you're going to use "names used in literature", and other realities, then why do we have "Croatian War of Independence" together with battles between rebelled Albanians and Macedonian Government in the same article, with the war, that Croatian one has nothing in common (in the article "Yugoslav Wars"). But interesting, no article "Serbian aggression on Slovenia, Croatia and B&H", that would encompass the wars that do have thing in common - Serbian military attempt to concquer the territory of neighbouring republics. And the term "Serbian aggression" isn't unknown term in English literature. Kubura 05:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Changing the article's title back to 'War in Croatia'

I propose changing the present title (Croatian war of Independence) back to its original form War in Croatia. Perhaps War in Croatia, 1991-1995 would be even better, because historically speaking this was clearly not the only war in Croatia. I find the present title simply factually inaccurate, because it does not capture the totality of the 1991-1995 conflict: only one phase of the described conflict was actually the Croatian war of independence (from SFR Yugoslavia, in 1991), but not the entire conflict. Moreover, it is not clear at all where is this particular title actually coming from, because the article itself states that Croats refer to this conflict as 'the Homeland War' (?). Finally, I find the article's statement that the Serbs call the conflict 'War in Croatia' utter nonsense. There is nothing 'Serbian' about the name 'War in Croatia'...--FreedonNadd 00:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually it seems to me that we have several different potential choices, all of which I've seen in print:

• Croatian War of Independence
• Croatian War of Secession
• Homeland War
• Serbo-Croatian War
• War in Croatia

Of these four options, I'd have to say that "Croatian War" is the most common in English. "Croatian War of Independence" is almost never used and "Homeland War" is too vague. Unfortunately "Croatian War" is also rather vague given the number of conflicts fought on Croatian soil (as is "War in Croatia"). I'm also uncomfortable with the fact that we've chosen one side's preferred name, which seems very arbitrary and not entirely compatible with NPOV; it should surely reflect the predominate usage among English-speakers. I believe the best way forward would be to retitle it "Serbo-Croatian War". -- ChrisO 01:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll first point to the archive Talk:Croatian_War_of_Independence/Archive_1#About_the_name_of_this_article

so that we establish some context. (This was supposed to have been obvious and easy to find, but hey...)

The phrase 'war of independence' (or 'independence war') wasn't supposed to have been contentious in English. Sure, the country became formally independent sooner rather than later, but the new country's independence was at stake in the war, it was one of the primary issues, if not the primary issue.

I can't imagine how 'Serbo-Croatian War' would be good... it sounds almost like a flame-bait! I see at least three major reasons against it. Firstly, there is little precedent for it, certainly not in the local resources, nobody calls it hrvatsko-srpski rat here. Secondly, it's not clear from that title whether it was a war of nations as in peoples or nations as in states. If one argues that it was a war of peoples, there are numerous exceptions, as I'm sure other people will point out, the delineation between warring parties wasn't entirely ethnic. If one argues that it was a war of states, then there's the issue of one never having declared war against the other, and indeed the unresolved lawsuit at the Hague tribunal as to whether it was Serbia who attacked Croatia and committed genocide. Finally, the third issue is that it is an unnecessary simplification that can unnecessarily rile up various trolls - I'm guessing that they'll first start with a move war, arguing whether it's Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian. All in all I think that if we use such a name, the prospect is very gloomy...

If the phrase war of independence/independence war really needs to go, I'd first look towards the simple option like "War in Croatia", or "War in Croatia (1990s)", or something like that (bearing in mind that setting those years in the title has its own pitfalls). --Joy [shallot] 00:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

for War in Croatia (1991-1995), descrptive, exact and NPOV --TheFEARgod (Ч) 20:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This whole debate is a claytons one that seems politically motivated. Repeatedly trying to change the title is a sign of persistence, not validity of one's arguments. There is no issue with the "war of independence" title. It accurately describes the nature of the conflict - establishing an independent state over it's legally defined national space, namely the AVNOJ boundaries that were internationally recognised (this last point is important). IMO the current title more than adequately describes the core element of the conflict.

The primary objection come from some Serb wikipedians b/c that argue that the war of Independence title implies that the self-proclaimed Krajina entity was part of Croatia, although dejure this was always the case. Thus any change to the title is an exercise in trying to manufacture a view political legitimacy for an entity that otherwise is not associated with it. (See Serbs of Dubrovnik discussion page).

Further, to change the article's title would be somewhat discriminatory & w/o precedent considering that this type of title applies to other independence struggles [17]. Leave the title as is. iruka 23:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Algerian War of Independence American War of Independence Angolan War of Independence Bangladesh War of Independence Bolívar's War Chilean War of Independence Croatian War of Independence Dutch War of Independence Eritrean War of Independence Estonian War of Independence Greek War of Independence Haitian Revolution Hungarian War of Independence Indochina Wars French-Indochina War Vietnam War Cambodian-Vietnamese War Sino-Vietnamese War

Irish War of Independence Israeli War of Independence Latvian War of Independence Lithuanian Wars of Independence Mexican War of Independence Palestinian War of independence Philippine Revolution Philippine-American War Romanian War of Independence Wars of Scottish Independence Serbian Revolution Slovenian War of Independence South American Wars of Independence Spanish War of Independence Turkish War of Independence

The difference is that many of the names you quote are long-standing established ones in English-language historical works. I don't believe "Croatian War of Independence" is in the same category; if you check Google Books you'll find only a handful of uses of that name. It's noteworthy that only one of the non-English Wikipedias uses a comparable title: "Guerra de la independència croata" in Catalan. All of the others save Japanese and Croatian use equivalents of "War in Croatia" or "Croatian War". (Japanese, bizarrely, uses "The Croatia dispute"!) I find it particularly striking that even the Croatian Wikipedia doesn't use "Croatian War of Independence", instead using "Domovinski rat" (Homeland War). Where does the name of this article come from in the first place? -- ChrisO 23:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Domovinski Rat transliterated is Homeland War but has the same meaning as the "War of Independence".

The google books search result is misleading b/c "Croatian war" is a descriptor in general language use eg: "croatian war victims"; "croatian war orphans"; "croatian war reparations"; "serbo-croatian war"; "bosnian-croatian war" etc so the search result will be inflated. The name I suspect is derived from the naming convention/precedent for similar such conflicts - just need to look @ the list I posted above of the various independence conflicts. iruka 06:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Chris, this was my initial question as well: where is the title Croatian War of Independence coming from? Who retitled the article and why? This seems to be a mystery

There is no mystery; you're only apparenly being lazy to read what is written above. Let's repeat once again:

Talk:Croatian_War_of_Independence/Archive_1#About_the_name_of_this_article

Please click the link, and read some of that. --Joy [shallot] 15:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

- clearly Croatian War of Independence is not an established English language term referring to this particular ex-Yugoslav conflict. I propose returning the original name, with years inserted for clarity: War in Croatia (1991-1995). This is very simple, straight-forwards, NPOV title. Croatian War of Independence is, on the other hand, problematic to say the least. I have no problem calling a part of the conflict (the 1991 phase) 'Croatian War of Independence', but the 1992-1995 phase of the conflict was something different (1992-1995 phase was in essence Croatia vs. break-away Serbs in Croatia, not a Croatian war of independence against Yugoslavia) '--FreedonNadd 04:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

FreedonNadd, you're not getting it, do you?
Yugoslavia has dissoluted in 1991, the partnership was dissolved. But if some (Serbia and Montenegro) of the partners wants forcefully to keep the territory of other partners (Slovenia, Croatia, B&H) in some kind of "union" (and openly helping the annexation of the territories of those republics), than it's aggression. So the attacked sides had to defend theirs independence. Does this makes it clear to you? Kubura 05:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

FreedonNadd, why is it probelmatic? The war was still against Serbia & her proxies (rebadged as Yugoslavia)- as was the proxy conflict in Bosnia. I mean these areas were part of the territorial expansion plans of Serbia (rebadged as the new Jugoslavija). Whether you believe in the the pretension that the 1991-1995 conflict was to preserve Yugoslavia, or to create a new reality of "Greater Serbia", the effect was the same. Yugoslavia (Serbia) was still knee deep in both conflicts in supply of men, arms & logistics. Who represented the parties on the ground in peace deals if not Milosevic. Serbia (not the Croatian or Bosnian Serb self-proclaimed entities) was found to have contravened the genocide convention. So lets discard this myth/masquerade of the conflict not involving Yugoslavia in 1992-1995 & just being a case of breakaway Serbs. The whole thing was orchestrated from Belgrade (see Milosevic/ Milan Babic trial @ ICTY). I propose we leave the article title as is. iruka 06:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, consider these points:

• The notion of independence applies to a national space - usually legally defined - in this case the AVNOJ boundaries. The 1991 conflict was mere survival (Kadijevic's plan was to go all the way to Zagreb), the 1992-1995 portion of the independence war was restoring control over national space.
• The distinction b/w Serb rebels & the army of Serbia proper is artificial. There is enough evidence from the ICTY to show that the Units were integrated - they were that way before the war started - it was the JNA remember. So you had the Zagreb corps which moved to border regions, & they worked in conjunction with the Banja Luka (Bosnia) corps. The tanks from Belgrade went for Eastern Slavonija. The Podgorica corpus (Montenegro, Yugoslavia) went for Dubrovnik & Dalmatia via Herzegovina.
• The supply in men, weapons, logistics all came from Serbia. Mladic was commander in bothe th Croatian Serb & Bosnian Serb units, & before that the JNA.
• Another flaw in that notion that 1992-1995 part of the conflict didn't involve the JNA is that there was still conflict around Dubrovnik & Eastern Herzegovina involving the corps from Montenegro (i.e. Yugoslavia). And the main planner of the campaign was Adzic situated in Belgrade. iruka 06:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. A war of independence is about the state of independence! Calling the 1992-1995 phase of the conflict in Croatia the War of Independence would automatically imply that Croatian state independence was somehow in jeopardy of being 'undone' during the 1992-1995 period (undone how? by 'rolling back' Croatia into dead Yugoslavia? Or perhaps into Serbia?!?). This was clearly not the case - the Croatian state independence was not in jeopardy of being 'undone' in any way after Yugoslavia exploded in 1991. The state from which Croatia seceded was irreversibly dead. Thus, calling the whole war "the Croatian War of Independence" is clearly a misnomer because it does not reflect the historical facts. The war with the Yugoslav army in 1991 was indeed the Croatian war of independence - that is not in dispute, and it should be in the article. However, the 1992-1995 phase of the conflict was a war between Croatia and its break-away Serb minority which proclaimed its own (para)state on the Croatian state territory; thus, the 1992-1995 phase of the war could be called "Serbo-Croatian war (in Croatia)" (since the Serbs and Croats were also at war with each other in Bosnia and Herzegovina during this time).--FreedonNadd 07:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Three points in response:

• 1. Independence from what - not Yugoslavia as this is a misnomer. It was from Serbian hegemony & it's territorial expansion. The fact that the JNA (which had been increasingly Serbianised over a number of years pre-outbreak of conflict) was supposed to be the tool of hegemony (just as the navy was for Brittania & the carrier fleet for the US) doesn't diminish this fact. The way you are discussing the issue, it sounds as though you are treating Yugoslavia & it's military forces & Serb forces in Croatia & Bosnia as different entities which is an erroneous assumption to make. I need you to understand that they were the one & same force - the JNA (minus the non-Serb elements that had either defected or been purged) with some Serb paramilitary additions. It isn't like hey magic presto, they suddenly became different armies. They were one army (JNA) before the war, & they were one army during the war, with the same goal - the incorporation of parts of Croatia & BiH into an enlarged ("united") Serb state.
  2. Independence over what exactly? Independence requires a territorial definition otherwise the independence is meaningless. It always requires an absence of as much as possible of external hegemony. Thus with a third of it's territory occupied, with an occupying army itermittently shelling cities & the capital, frontlines that need to be manned, & a proxy conflict with strategic significance in the neighbouring republic, independence was very much threatened. No world power intervened in 1991, & they weren't going to intervene from 1992-1995.
  3. Croatia's independence was not secured in 1991, as the state (or what was left of it) was always under threat (see Zagreb rocket attack), and in a state of flux. The issue of independence was only resolved in 1995 when dejure recognition matched defacto facts on the ground. iruka 09:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Marinko, I'm afraid that's not really relevant to the issue at hand. The naming of this article isn't a question of which name we personally prefer, or which one we think is the most accurate. As Wikipedia:Naming conventions says, "Generally, article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Unfortunately last year's discussion of the article's name was fatally flawed because it didn't take this principle into account. It also relied exclusively on an indiscriminate Google search which inevitably counted many unreliable sources, rather than a more focused search confined to reliable sources. The task before us is to determine what the majority of reliable English-language sources call the Croatian conflict, not which name we personally prefer. That's the exam question. Now let's find some data. :-) -- ChrisO 07:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The current title fullfils the naming convention requirements.

• War of Independence is easily recognised & lacks ambiguity - why b/c the conflict resembles most other national struggles in the mimicing the phases of gaining international recognition & securing control over ones national space;
• If one looks at the naming convention adopted for similar conflicts, War of Independence seems to be the precedent - surely I would have thought this alone would be enough;
• Linking the article is not an issue;
• The previous discussion bore the numbers out with a google search which is only now being called into question. Can you pls explain how the previous search results are filled with unreliable sources? Because I have shown the search result put forward in this current discussion in favor of changing the name to be of flawed methodology. iruka 09:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Some research & assesment of results:

• Results 1 - 10 of about 9,980 for "Croatian War of Independence"[18] Unique id - follows naming convention for similar conflicts, decent # of hits.
• Results 1 - 10 of about 196 for "Croatian War of Secession"[19] Unique id - low # of hits.

Results 1 - 10 of about 37,600 for "Homeland War"[20] Unique id - but doesn't carry same meaning as the Croatian transliterated title - hence "war of independence" is better option.

• Results 1 - 10 of about 2,990 for "Serbo-Croatian War"[21] Generic-id - can refer to 1918, 1941, even medieval times. Avg # of hits.
• Results 1 - 10 of about 67,800 for "War in Croatia"[22] Generic id - too general. This particular search criteria flawed because can refer to any war in Croatia, in the past or metaphorical.
• Results 1 - 10 of about 180 for "War in Croatia (1991-1995)" [23] Unique id - low # of hits.

Conclusion, War of independence is best option in looking @ naming convention for similar conflitcs, # of conflicts & specificity of title. Keep current title as is. Second best option is "Homeland War". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marinko (talk • contribs)

the fact said here, that Croatia's independence was in danger until 1995 is an unsourced claim, probably original research. Peripheral areas only were in danger, the Krajina Forces weren't threathening Zagreb with invasion. If that matter isn't solved the NPOV tag can stay forever.... --TheFEARgod (Ч) 18:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

As always, this discussion degenerates into [accusations of] POV exchange from (pro-)Serbian and (pro-)Croatian side; it's tough to comment sensibly and have good faith assumed. I'll try to simply comment on the policy aspect, specifically WP:NC(CN). Marinko's own Google research indicates that "War in Croatia" is the most common term in English; he further comments that "This particular search criteria flawed because can refer to any war in Croatia, in the past or metaphorical". Now, what other war in Croatia is unambigously called like that? Which other war the Ghits refer to? Apart from the 1990s one, there were WWII and WWI, which are called by those respective names. Before that, the wars on the territory of Croatia were waged between European Empires, and are not referred by the term "Croatia" in any case. The article on the war on BiH territory is called War in Bosnia and Herzegovina or Bosnian war, as everyone knows which war it refers to.
God save if we'd have to disambiguate "War in Croatia"... Duja► 07:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

FearGod, rebelled Serb forces (so-called RSK) were not the only forces that threatened Croatia's sovereignty. You've forgotten that Serbian forces were involved whole the time, as well as Bosnian Serbs' forces. Do you remember the pictures from TV Beograd (shown also on HRT, Croatian national TV)? When Serbian TV-news reported about volunteers from Belgrade for war in Croatia? What about southernmost parts of Croatia?

You've forgotten the situation from January 1994, when tide of the war almost turned. The sides have almost changed.

Are you pushing original research by saying that independence of Croatia wasn't endangered?

When all has ended, it's easy to say: "Its independence wasn't endangered.". It ain't over till' it's over. I still believe, and I'm convinced that Operation "Storm" was a big gamble; the attack could turn into an insuccessfull operation, according to the forces ratios (Croatian admiral Domazet-Lošo has explained that in his book).

Still, Croatia had to take that risk, because some unwanted outcomes due to some UN rules could be applied (Croatian politician Šime Đodan warned about that). The fall of Bihać pocket area, which might worsen the situation for Croatia and Bosnian Muslims and Croats, was only one of reasons. Kubura 07:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I support Homeland war (despite how POV it may seem), because this article is factually inaccurate and even not applied in this subject. --PaxEquilibrium 17:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I support the current title - the “Croatian War of Independence”. The only NPOV alternative would be “Croatian-Serbian War”.--MaGioZal 19:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with the discarding of 'War in Croatia' as too generic. If considered as a part of a sentence and without a capitalized W, it may be just a generic term, but as a phrase and with capitalization, this does seem to be a sufficiently clear reference. --Joy [shallot] 23:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

About those Google searches... here are a couple a bit more indicative ones:

• "Croatian War of Independence" -wikipedia 1991 1995
• "Croatia" "War of Independence" -wikipedia 1991 1995
• "War in Croatia" -wikipedia 1991 1995

That should be a bit more enlightening. One can also tack on (as a separate search term) the year 1998, to see numbers scaled down. --Joy [shallot] 23:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said before, "War in Croatia (1991-1995)" is a straight forward and NPOV title. I don't see what the problem is with that one. On the other hand, it is still unclear where the (new) title "Croatian War of Independence" actually comes from - as far as I can see, nobody is able to explain that...Personally, I saw this particular name for the conflict for the first time here on Wikipedia in May 2007 - I never saw it before, not in the media or in the books written about the conflict. I would love the see a name of one established historian who actually uses this term in his/her work. With regards to the naming conventions, it seems to me that this is an attempt to establish a name rather than to use an already established name for the conflict (and Wikipedia article) which is the norm.--FreedonNadd 00:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI, the original discussion is here. Duja► 06:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

War in Croatia can be attributed to almost any conflict that occurred on the territory of Croatia, from the Turkish wars, to WW1, WW2, & finally the war of independence. Capitalised/Italicised or not, this point isn't going to change. Apart from being too generic, War in Croatia is not an NPOV title, b/c it removes reference to the core issue of the struggle - independence - & would be a POV course of action which is argued for by those opposing the name and seeking to reframe the conflict as s/t other than independence. It would also be POV b/c it would be denying a title that applies to many other similar conflicts. Given these points, & the fact that War of Independence scores a high number of hits, we should leave the name as is. The only alternative that would carry any weight is "Homeland War". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marinko (talk • contribs) 13:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

You again assert but still fail to demonstrate the ambiguity. We have Vietnam War, Korean War, War in Bosnia and Herzegovina which would ostensibly be equally ambiguous. Again, which other war in Croatia might be conceivably located under that title? We also have Balkan Wars, which is ostensibly yet more ambigous, but everyone knows which wars are referred to. Your own Google search indicates that War in Croatia is the most common term, ergo it satisfies our policy. Duja► 15:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll just comment on this part: it seems to me that this is an attempt to establish a name rather than to use an already established name for the conflict (and Wikipedia article) - I don't think that is the case. The phrase "war in Croatia" is simply the simplest possible way that the press has used to refer to the war (they actually started that trend off with "war in former Yugoslavia"). I don't believe that such a phrase is particularly established in the English-speaking world - at least until we see a relevant number of uses by English-speaking historians. Since it's a relatively recent event, it sounds like there's barely quorum in that field so far. (If not, we'd need some references to the contrary.)

On related note, some of those historians will be browsing the Internet and also maybe reading these discussions, which may help them make up their mind about how to best call that war. :) --Joy [shallot] 16:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Conversely you are yet to convincingly demonstrate the issue with the current title - the Croatian War of Independence. As indicated by the following examples, it is the most common naming convention for wars of national liberation & asserting control over national space. The Vietnam & Korean wars are the exception rather than the rule & are the euphemistic terms that veil the USs role as an outside & even as an invading force. The Vietnamese themselves refer to it as an independence struggle. But the war in Croatia really didn't see significant direct American involvement, thus the reason why Croatian war of Independence & Homeland War are more common & appropriate descriptors. It also is the reason why interested Serb wikipedians tend to opt for the War in Croatia title:

Algerian War of Independence American War of Independence Angolan War of Independence Bangladesh War of Independence Bolívar's War Chilean War of Independence Croatian War of Independence Dutch War of Independence Eritrean War of Independence Estonian War of Independence Greek War of Independence Haitian Revolution Hungarian War of Independence Indochina Wars French-Indochina War Vietnam War Cambodian-Vietnamese War Sino-Vietnamese War

Irish War of Independence Israeli War of Independence Latvian War of Independence Lithuanian Wars of Independence Mexican War of Independence Palestinian War of independence Philippine Revolution Philippine-American War Romanian War of Independence Wars of Scottish Independence Serbian Revolution Slovenian War of Independence South American Wars of Independence Spanish War of Independence Turkish War of Independence

To address your question (which was already covered in prev post), the ambiguity is two fold:

• 1. the war can refer to the Turkish wars, to WW1, WW2, & finally the war of independence.

I do not believe that I have ever seen historical works that referred to the Ottoman or World wars on Croatian territory as simply "war in Croatia". Yes, these were each a war in Croatia, but they weren't referred to like that. Only the war of independence has been referred to as the "war in Croatia", and fairly often. --Joy [shallot] 16:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• 1. the title "War in Croatia", is generic & used in general english expressions once the context has been framed (ususally by a title like Homeland war, war of independence, the 1990's war etc.)

Note that the result I put forward for "War in Croatia" isn't the most common b/c that result returns an enormous number of false positives - take out the false positives, & I'm sure it would be lower down on the list. Even though I capitalised the search criteria, it returned lower case examples that represent false positives such as the following:

• KBR – Recruiting for the Iraq War in Croatia
• The War in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina
• The role of JNA and Serbian troops in the war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina
• The war in Croatia thus sprang from the fears of the local Serb populations
• The war in Croatia has caused very significant damage to chemical and allied industries.
• Chemical hazards during the recent war in Croatia
• After war in Slovenia, a war in Croatia ensued.
• explores the causes of the war in Croatia.
• But, we need to be aware of the migrations that took place during the last war in Croatia.

All these reference point to the recent war, but once it has been contextualised by a different title/background briefing etc. As a title in & of itself, it lacks specificity & is ambiguous. The current title, "The Croatian War of Independence" does not suffer from these issues & thus should remain. The only credible alternative is "Homeland War". iruka 22:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the usage of the term above is OK. If we keep the current name, it could bear a template like the current on top of it forever --TheFEARgod (Ч) 10:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

factual accuracy is still breached. war of independence was only through 1991. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 10:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

This surgically clear delineation between for-independence and after-independence is not automatically convincing to me in a historical article such as this one. The issue is simply not as clear-cut as such an interpretation would imply, there are several years worth of gray area there. --Joy [shallot] 16:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting point about Vietnam and Korea (American slant), but still, it stands to reason that the English-speaking world is authoritative for titles in the English Wikipedia - for better or for worse.

As far as those false positive are concerned, I disagree with the interpretation. In the above examples, only the first example is a clear false positive. The number 7 is almost, but not quite (the syntax is "a", but at the same time it's reference to the same thing). All the others are fairly clear references to this particular war, even if they are lowercase.

The phrase "War in Croatia" will become ambiguous if in the future there is another general war on Croatian territory under that name. Right now, it's not ambiguous, because there has only been one such war.

The case against "War in Croatia" on grounds of ambiguity is rather weak, IMO. That's not necessarily a reason to switch to that name, but still. --Joy [shallot] 15:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree - the point is the phrase war in Croatia is general English & not a title. In the cited examples of false positives, #6 & 9 allude the 1990s war through the additional words of 'recent' & 'last' w/o which it would be ambiguous IMO. The same applies to #3 where it mentions the JNA.

Thus we have the existing title which has no ambiguity - but is contested on the interpretation that the latter part of the war was not for independence, which in turn is countered by the notion that independence involves establishing control over national space. Then of the alternatives, war in Croatia is too generic/ambiguous, war in Croatia (1991-1995) doesn't score many hits, but "Homeland War" seems viable. iruka 00:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Adding years to the title (i.e. "War in Croatia (1991-1995)") elegantly solves any "ambiguity" issues (although I don't really see that there is such an issue at all, as I never heard of any other war in Croatia except this one in the 1990s...)--FreedonNadd 20:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Adding years to the title makes it a title that scores very few hits. There are many things I'm sure you haven't heard of, but would have an encyclopeadic entry - thus whether one has heard of it or not is hardly the best measure of a title's validity. As an encyclopeadic entry, it should be unambiguous & account for other similar events on the historical timeline. The current title "Croatian War of Independence" is unambigous & covers the main dynamic of the conflict, indpendence from institutional Serb hegemony & control over (internationally recognised) national space. iruka 04:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

still, independence was achieved in 1991, and what with 1992-1995? So 2 main dynamics of the conflict. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Marinko you are arguing that "War in Croatia (1991-1995)" scores very few hits online (because of the added years part?), but you still fail to explain where the present title "Croatian War of Independence" actually comes from, or to demonstrate that established sources (major English-language media, historians etc.) actually use the present name of the article to refer to this particular conflict. You are missing the whole point about naming conventions at Wikipedia, and I suggest you read again what ChrisO posted about it.--FreedonNadd 19:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes to your question - Croatian War of Independence scores very highly on the number of hits in a search relative to other titles & doesn't have issues with false positives that the suggested alternative can have.

Re naming conventions:

Wikipedia:Naming conventions says, "Generally, article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

Thus Croatian War of Indpendence w.r.t the naming conventions:

• the majority of English would most easily recognise it - are you suggesting otherwise?
• there is min ambiguity to what conflict the Croatian War of Indpendence refers to & the main thematic in the conflict;
• no issue with linking to other article.

Thus far, the only arguments against CWOI is the notion that the latter part of the conflict did not deal with independence & on the basis of frequency of use. But those notions are countered by the notion that independence conflicts require establishing control over national space, & that the fledging state was under constant threat (as indicated by the rocketing of Zagreb & the fact that economically & logistically it was not functional - see Zagreb-Belgrade hwy example) until resolution of the conflict either politically or militarily. And a search shows that CWOI scores very highly on " of hits. Thus I am perplexed at the request for the change as present title appears consitent with naming guidelines & consistent with the titling of similar struggles of national liberation.

Examples of journals that use the title the "Croatian War of Independence" include:

• http://ijrl.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/7/3/407
• http://www.maic.jmu.edu/Journal/10.2/focus/simunovic/simunovic.htm
• http://www.landminesurvivors.org/documents/indicator_croatia.pdf

iruka 06:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you honestly believe that these sources demonstrate that the name "Croatian War of independence" is an established mainstream English-language term? Bosnian Croat author? You just proved my case, not yours.--FreedonNadd 22:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

You quote Drazen Simunovic, but ignore ERIN D. MOONEY & the international NGO sources. These sources prove two things - it's a mainstream English term & that it is used in the field of academia. iruka 01:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I would just like to point out something here. Although I agree "War in Croatia" seems like a more neutral point of view and lack of sources otherwise support that, "War of Independence" seems to be appropriate enough for several reasons. Possibly the strongest argument FOR the Indepedence title is the fact that Federal Yugoslavia (FRY) - recognized Croatia and Bosnia only in 1996. Therefore, the country disputed their legality until then. In the eyes of Belgrade, which some would argue must have had significant influence over the Serb forces in Croatia, Croatia became independant in 1996. Hence - independence war. The Spanish Inquisitor 09:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

As an example supporting this, lots of independence wars (notably the American War of Independence) are considered to have "ended" only when the opposing party (the British) recognized their independence, irrespective of the fact that some countries in the world (notably France) already recognized it as a new state much earlier. The Spanish Inquisitor 09:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the circumstances here are different - at the end of the American War of Independence there was still the original state around to legally challenge the American independence (the British Empire). With regards to the war in Croatia, the overall state (SFR Yugoslavia) essentially disappeared by December 1991. There was nowhere to 'roll back' Croatia into. The reminder of the war in Croatia (after 1991) was essentially Croatia vs. Serbs in Croatia (who wanted to create their own state and break out of Croatia, thus 'reversing the tables'). There were 'two wars in one' in Croatia from 1991 to 1995, two distinguishable phases. "Croatian War of Independence" is fine for the 1991 war with the Yugoslav federal forces, but the rest of the conflict was something else.--FreedonNadd 22:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The Croatia War of Indpenedence was largely fought between Croatia & Serbia. The other peoples in Yugoslavia did not have a major role. Despite Serbia carrying the name of Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia ceased to exist before outbreak of hostilities, indeed it was the federal institutions ceasing to function that prompted Croat & Slovene communists to organise referendums then declare independence.

Note also, Serbia was legally (for most things) the successor state to Yugoslavia, for example the recent ICJ decision on genocide brought against Yugoslavia, then novated to Serbia. International institutions have shown that despite the exercise in branding & rebranding, Yugoslavia (1990 ->) = Serbia.iruka 01:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

By December 1991? FreedonNadd, do you live on Mars, Venus or what?
You obviously don't know about the Serbian strike wave from 1992, when large numbers of volunteers (don't think that you can organize that much people, arm them and send them to the battlefield in other country, without knowledge and support from the "giving" country). That was obvious during Operation Maslenica. Documented on TV.
Not to mention when Serbia-Montenegro sent regular forces on the southern battlefield, as well as on occupied Croatian areas (southern Konavle, Prevlaka), preventing possible Croatian attempt to liberate southernmost Konavle area and Prevlaka.
1993 was hell of the year, because there were turn of events, as well as infos that there was insinuated joint attack of Bos. Muslim forces and Bos. Serb forces against Bos. Croats and charge towards the sea along the Neretva valley (Operation Neretva), with Serb attack along on southern flank (Dubrovnik area). You've forgotten all those Bos.Muslim and Serbian territorial requests at the expense of Croatia ("izlaz na more", corridor towards the sea). Once the dogs began to dismember you, they don't stop. In fact, that year Slovenia started with its territorial claims against Croatian territory (unilateral declaration of Slovenian parliament from 7 Apr, when they declared whole bay, Savudrijska vala, as "Slovenian", although Slovenia has a right to only a part of it).
Have you forgotten when international community threatened Croatia with sanctions ("the quiet sanctions" were already in action)? Do you have any idea what might have been then?
FreedonNadd, you're speaking ex-post, when all events have passed, and when you know the outcome. But you have to think as you were in those times in Croatia. Kubura 07:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed references

I think that someone has moved my references, and left "international" fourteenth-hand references. Kubura 06:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I've restored them. Kubura 06:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

JNA as Serbia's arm

April 29 1991, in presidency of Yugoslavia, there was a voting on proposal of Borisav Jović, in which he required that JNA intervenes against Croatian police forces (ministry of internal affairs, MUP). Kubura 20:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Croatia's referendum

Referendum was held on May 19 1991.
Voters voted on two ballots: red one and the blue one.
On the blue one was the question "Jeste li za to da Republika Hrvatska, kao suverena i samostalna država koja jamči kulturnu autonomiju i sva građanska prava Srbima i pripadnicima drugih nacionalnosti u Hrvatskoj, može stupiti u savez s drugim republikama (prema prijedlogu Republike Hrvatske i Republike Slovenije za rješenje državne krize u SFRJ)?". 94.17% chose "yes", 1.2% chose "no".
On the red one was the question "Jeste li za to da Republika Hrvatska ostane u Jugoslaviji kao jedinstvenoj saveznoj državi (prema prijedlogu Republike Srbije i Crne Gore)?". 5.44% chose "yes", 91.97% chose "no". "Not valid" were 2.06%. Kubura 06:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Holding of referendum was prevented by rebel Serb authorities.
Croatian authorities couldn't walk in rebel areas in the times of referendum.
That's why it's not just: "called for boycott". Kubura 06:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Duja, why have you removed the reference and the text lines about referendum?
There is a reason why I wrote "Croatian authorities held a referendum on Croatian independence [24]. "
That is the point. It is only "referendum on independence" (referendum o samostalnosti)... it doesn't mention "from".
The legal acts that followed after the referendum were:
May 25, 1991: Ustavna odluka o suverenosti i samostalnosti Republike Hrvatske.
The activation of this act was cancelled for 3 months on the basis of Brijuni Declaration from July 7th, on the basis of the request of EEC, in order to try to solve the Yugoslav crisis in peaceful way. [25].
October 8, 1991: Odluka o raskidu državno-pravne sveze sa ostalim republikama i pokrajinama SFRJ
The 3-month moratorium has ended the day before, the same day Croatian presidential buildings were bombed by JNA (...JRV). Kubura 08:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Use of the term rebel

Duja,

The term 'rebel' does not imply anything with regard to why they were rebelling, it merely describes the act of not recognising the otherwise internationally recognised authority in the region, thus it is a NPOV term and describes the status of those Serbs that did not recognise Zagreb's jurisdiction, versus those that did (loyalists). I don't think the majority of sources would dispute that the Croatian Serbs were rebelling against the Croatian state / Tudjman govt, which were internationally recognised & thus the legal authority.

The term is quite common - can you pls explain your objection to the use of the term.

Cheers, iruka 07:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Point is, there were villages and towns, inhabited with Serbs (not necessarily with majority), that didn't rebel, despite the fact that greaterserbianist...agents... worked on inciting the rebellion.
The term "pobunjeni Srbi" (rebel Serbs) is officially used in Croatian sources. At last, wasn't the Jovan Rašković the one who said "this is the rebellion of Serb people!" ("ovo je pobuna srpskog naroda!")?
So, that's why we insist on the term "rebel Serbs".
Using just the term "Croatian Serbs" for the rebels isn't fair towards the Serbs who stayed loyal to Croatia whole the time. Kubura 07:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't NPOV - check the articles on Albanians in Kosovo, you won't see rebelling anywhere. Also it would mean that we have to add "Rebel Croats" everywhere too for the 1991-1992 period. The Serbs' rebellion, with its roots in 1990, was conducted in 1991 - and turned into a secession in 1992. --PaxEquilibrium 15:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

1)Of course there wasn't rebelling on Kosovo. Rugova kept Kosovo calm for Milošević (and tried to buy friendship with Serbia over Croatia's back). So Milošević had free hands at home, so he could send more forces against Croatia and B&H, instead being busy with "rebellion" on Kosovo.
2)What "rebel Croats"? Croats haven't rebelled against themselves. Whome has Croatia rebelled against? How can you compare Croatia with some tumor-formation?
Croatia was legal entity in Yugoslavia. There was no Croatian rebellion.
3)Croatian Serbs' rebellion began in August 1990, with the "log-revolution".
4)What do you want to say by "1991-1992" period? What was then, and wasn't later? Don't push your original works here. Kubura 15:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Terrorist activities

"On occasion, the JNA sided with the local Croat Serb forces, intervening against the Croatian paramilitary police units and preventing it in its action against Serb terrorist activities."
The better text would be:
"...sided with rebel Serbs' forces, ..., preventing the Croatian police in its action against rebel Serbs' terrorist activities". Kubura 08:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Hammering out a few facts (Re: "Croatian War of Independence" title for the entire article)

Let's get to real business by using a credible source: "Balkan Battlegrounds: A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995. Volume I. Central Intelligence Agency, Office of Russian and European Analysis, Washington, DC 20505. May 2002." (ISBN-10: 0756729300); (ISBN-13: 978-0756729301).

Some of the maps already in this article come from the map case that accompanies this book, by the way.

Here is a direct quote from Section II: Croatia 1990-1991, Chapter 12: Ending the War: The Vence Plan:

Serbia Moves To End the War (subtitle; all on page 106):

"Real progress toward ending the fighting came only after the Serbian political leaders concluded their war aims of achieving military control over Serb areas in Croatia had been fulfilled. Uninterested in the JNA's aim of a defeated and subdued Croatia, they were more willing than the JNA commanders to consider moving to a negotiated solution once their own objectives had been attained. By early November [1991], Milosevic and Jovic had concluded the time was ripe to lock in the federal and Serb gains by requesting deployment of UN peacekeeping troops to halt and prevent further fighting pending the achievement of a general political settlement"

From this chapter (and others which I will mention as I go along), the following can be concluded:

1. The source clearly distinguishes between two general phases of the war in Croatia; the first phase lasted from June 25, 1991 to January 3, 1992 (from the Croatian declaration of independence to the general armistice and signing of the Vence Plan). At the end of the first phase of the conflict, SFR Yugoslavia was dead. Only this first phase of the conflict saw direct participation of JNA in the fighting (soon after, there was no JNA at all).

2. Goals of the Yugoslav federal forces (Yugoslav People's Army - JNA) and those of the Serbian/Croatian Serb politicians and paramilitaries were similar but they were not identical. According to the source, JNA's primary aim was to gain control of entire Croatia in order to force its leadership to renegotiate the Yugoslav federation (p. 98). This was the main goal of Veljko Kadijevic's "Strategic Offensive" (map is in the article) in the fall of 1991 (September to December). Veljko Kadijevic (Yugoslav minister of defense, i.e. JNA's top commander) was a real Yugoslav of a Titoist kind (in national and ideological terms); he was a child from a mixed marriage (half-Croat half-Serb), born in western Herzegovina (Imotski), he fought in the Partisans during WW2, and he had the same general dislike for both Croatian and Serbian nationalists. His only interest was in preserving Yugoslavia; he cared little if Croatia would retain its borders or if the Croatian Serbs would achieve their own secession from Croatia if there was no Yugoslavia. Goals of the Serbian/Croatian Serb political leadership (and paramilitaries under their direct control) on the other hand were different. They were only interested in retaining control of Serb-populated areas of Croatia (25-30% of Croatia), and for them the rest of Croatia could go down Slovenia's road of independence. A very similar story will repeat itself in Bosnia in 1992. All of this is explained in detail in Annex 15: Mobilization and the JNA-Serbian Political-Military Conflict.

3. The source never calls the conflict in Croatia "Croatian War of Independence". It refers to the conflict as either "war in Croatia" or "conflict in Croatia". There is one spot in the text where the source states that the Croats were fighting JNA to get their independence, which is a true statement with regards to what was happening in 1991.

From all of this, the article should recognize the following facts:

A) "Croatian War of Independence", as a newly established term, could in fact refer only to the first phase of the conflict (June 25, 1991 to January 3, 1992). As long as the effort of Yugoslav federal forces (JNA) was on the menu, Croatia was fighting for its independence (from SFR Yugoslavia), because the ultimate goal of Kadijevic's JNA was to undo/annul Croatian independence and preserve/reestablish federal Yugoslavia. Once the JNA quit the field, this phase was over.

B) Croatian Serbs, acting as Milosevic's proxies, were not interested in 'keeping' entire Croatia in Yugoslavia. They were only interested in Serb-populated areas of Croatia, amounting to some 25-30% of the territory of Croatia. The source calls the Croatian Serb effort 'secession within secession' a number of times: as Croatia was trying to secede from Yugoslavia, Croatian Serbs were trying to secede from Croatia itself. The federal and Croatian Serb story run a parallel course during 1991, but the later stages of the conflict - from 1992 to 1995 - were only Croatian Serb effort to secede from Croatia. Yes, they were getting logistical help from Serbia from 1992 to 1995 (although never direct help along the lines of regular army conscripts from Serbia), but only in support of this particular (limited) goal. Thus, calling the 1992-1995 phase of the war "Croatian War of Independence" is clearly a historical misnomer, because even if Croatian Serbs were somehow ultimately successful in their secession from Croatia, the rest of Croatia (75-70% of territory) would remain an independent state (something it already was since 1992 - Croatia became a full member of the UN on May 15, 1992). Calling the 1992-1995 phase of the conflict "Croatian War of Independence" is as exotic as calling the JNA war effort in 1991 "Yugoslav War of Independence" because SFRY forces were trying to prevent Slovenian and Croatian secession and preserve Yugoslav state territory (?).

C) Taking all of the above into account, I would once again suggest changing the article's present title. If it were an established term, it would have been used in the 500+ pages long CIA report about the war, published in 2002. It was not used even once. With regards to the meaning of "Croatian War of Independence" itself, it could be a part of the article, referring to a particular phase of the conflict. I have no problem even with a separate article just on that, as long as the article was dealing with the events from June 25, 1991 to January 3, 1992.--FreedonNadd 23:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

For the beginning:
1) Imotski is not in western Herzegovina, it's in Zagora, southern Croatian hinterland.
2) "he fought in the Partisans during WW2". Kadijević has deserted before first action; he's a deserteur. There was a testimony of an former partisan; it was in newspapers few months ago. Here's the Google result for "Kadijević dezertirao" [26]. [http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20070403/novosti04.asp Veljko Kadijević je 1943. dezertirao iz partizana] .
3) About other lines: you haven't had opportunity to read Serbian and Montenegrin newspapers, neither to hear their radio and TV. Do you know for their words "they may leave, but without the territory"?
There's more to tell, but this is "for the first hand"... Kubura 06:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll wait for that, because so far your comments are non-essential. I am not too sure where Imotski is, on a quick glance at the map it seemed to be a small town in Herzegovina. Also, who cares what Kadijevic did in 1943 (?), even if it were true that he was a deserter - so what? With regards to your last comment, it all seems very cryptic to me, and I'll just leave it at that...--FreedonNadd 07:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"Non-essential?".
"...on a quick glance...small town in Herzegovina...". Yes, FreedonNadd, you made such glances on other things here also. That's why your ideas and sources are wrong/based on the wrong premises.
About war aims... General Mladić spoke on TV about "drinking coffee in Split" (the charge of tank divisions towards the Split was imminent; the charge on Šibenik already was). Users from former Yugoslavia know very well what I'm speaking about.
FreedonNadd, have in mind that many of those books published in West, and written by western analysts are:
1) built on stereotypes
2) built on clairvoyancy - in 1991 they spoke about total defeat of Croatia; Serbs had passed me that information (western estimate from 1991 about "100.000 dead Serbs and all Croats"), I haven't get that info from Cro. media
3) written ex-post - when everything had happened, and the outcome is known, then they speak about something, so "they are always wright, they never can be wrong".
Dear FreedonNadd, we had in Croatia, during whole time of the war, a TV-show on national TV ("Slikom na sliku"), that showed what's been told/shown about the Croatian war of Independence on Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian, Slovenian TV-stations (the important ones), as well as the American, English, Italian, German, Austrian and French TV-stations.
Also, our printed media (newpapers and magazines) regularly covered what's been written in printed media in abovementioned countries (and more). Kubura 12:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

And, can you refute FreedonNadd's research by something other than handwaving, and nit-picking on the issue where is Imotski? I don't think that Wikipedia is a place to fix historical injustices or propagate The Truth. For Christ's sake, he's citing an extensive CIA publication, which is supposedly "built on stereotypes, clairvoyancy, written ex-post"? Yeah, right. The article in Croatian Wikipedia is titled hr:Domovinski rat, I guess per Croatian equivalents of WP:NC(CN) and WP:UE. We're talking about English here, and relevant pages are WP:NC(CN) and WP:UE. And WP:SOAP, if you like. Duja► 12:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Duja, možeš mislit koliko su duboko išli u tom svom istraživanju, kada su Imotski smistili u zapadnu Hercegovinu.
Duja, you may think how deep they've gone in their exploration when they haven't watched on such things (when they placed Imotski in W Herzegovina).
Ako se misle baviti nečim, onda triba ić temeljito, a ne površno.
If they want to deal with something (or analize something), they should do it thoroughly, not superficially.
Naizgled sitnica, ali san mu pokaza di su već pogrišili. Tako da si ne umišlja da je to točno ka' da je od Božjeg groma urezano u stinu.
At first sight, it seems small and irrelevant, but I've shown him where they've made a mistake. So he won't be in ilusion that the content of that book is accurate as it has been carved from the allmighty God's thunder into the stone.
Duja, CIA je, nažalost, pogrišila u svezi s puno stvari ovdi. U priveć tega.
Duja, CIA had, unfortunately, made many misestimates regarding the things over here. In too many things.
I'll put my sources here later. Don't expect anything over night. Kubura 13:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion 2

Here are a few more quotes from the same CIA source (by the way, look at the name of the conflict in the subtitle):

Chapter 11: The JNA, Serbia, and the Croatia War, Fall-Winter 1991 (pages 96-97):

“Croatia’s attack on the JNA barracks brought to a head the differences between Serbian and JNA leaders over Belgrade’s objectives but failed to resolve them…The JNA senior leadership, in particular General Kadijevic, still balked at Milosevic’s pragmatically limited political objective – the creation of a Serbian-controlled Yugoslavia of the willing, including the Serb Autonomous Regions in Croatia [after the outbreak of hostilities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, this plan would be further modified to include only Serb regions in that republic as well]. The JNA generals still believed that the defeat of the Croatian Government would enable the preservation of some form of confederal Yugoslavia…Instead of merely defending the Serb regions of Croatia, as Milosevic and Jovic wanted, Kadijevic and the JNA high command were set to embark on a full-scale strategic offensive to defeat Croatia militarily and force its capitulation…Kadijevic would continue to raise the question of restorative military offensive and the general mobilization required to sustain it, much to the dismay and displeasure of Milosevic and Jovic”

More from the source, page 97:

JNA War Planning

“Kadijevic and the JNA General Staff’s strategic offensive plan – probably planned in the spring of 1991 and actually launched in September – called for slicing up Croatia and defeating it militarily to compel the surrender of the Croatian political leadership and the renegotiation of a Yugoslav confederation…As noted earlier, the aims of the strategic plan exceeded and conflicted with Milosevic’s war aim of a rump Serbian-led Yugoslavia. Milosevic wanted the JNA to implement a simpler strategy that included an immediate withdrawal from its exposed positions throughout the Croatian Republic to defend only the Serb regions, rather than launching a strategic offensive to achieve a political objective he did not want and believed infeasible”

I rest my case. As for Kubura’s comments: the source stated that Kadijevic was born in the Imotski area – I glanced at the map and made an assumption that this was a small town in Herzegovina (not the CIA source). With regards to the rest: dismissing something like the CIA war report as “wrong” simply because you don't like it is a tall order indeed; No passeran, I’m afraid. Before you accuse the entire CIA for “built on stereotypes, clairvoyance, written ex-post” approach, I suggest you examine your own views a bit first. If something like the CIA report is not good enough for individuals like Kubura, I am sure nothing else ever will be. I would really recommend to all to get a hold of this publication and read it – most of the present article could be rewritten based on it (starting with the equating of JNA and Serbian leadership), let alone changing its erroneous title. We have two choices at this point – either we leave the “dispute” tag for good because we cannot agree on anything, starting with changing the present title “Croatian War of Independence” (i.e. leaving the resolution for other people and some “better times” perhaps), or we invite a non-affiliate Wikipedia moderator to break a tie and impose a solution based on the evidence. The choice is yours.--FreedonNadd 18:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, FreedonNadd, buth I was here at that time, and I had first hand information.
The info that CIA had wasn't.
"Kadijević and the JNA General Staff’s strategic offensive plan... compel the surrender of the Croatian political leadership and the renegotiation of a Yugoslav confederation...".
Wrong. JNA had official policy, which was against confederation. On the classes of "moral-political education" (moralno-političko vaspitanje), that were part of military training of the persons who served the regular army, the soldiers were taught against any kind of confederation ("it's no good", "no confederation ever worked", etc.). Any person that served the Yugoslav army in 1990 and 1991 can confirm you that. Kubura 07:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, your personal experiences and first-hand information are fine, but you certainly know that Wikipedia relies on "reliable sources", which, unfortunately, may not reflect The Truth. Duja► 09:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Than, don't mention some CIA's book as background for some of your claims.
Further, if Kadijević was a "Titoist", he wouldn't agree with any Serb national extremism.
Instead of it, he sided with rebelled Serbs in Croatia and with the paramilitars from Serbia that helped anti-Croatia action. Kubura 07:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Why is that contradictory that Kadijević was both a Titoist and that he sided with Serbs in Croatia? I can't enter his mind, but it's quite logical that you ally with the forces that have the same goal as you, i.e. prevent Croatia from seceding. Duja► 09:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

1) JNA has crossed its authorization. It had no legal right to interfere with internal things of the republics (in this case Croatia); police deals with that. Police tries to suppress armed rebellion, tried to stop terrorist activities and restore constitutional orderand then, and then, JNA, prevents the regular police forces in performing its legal obligations??!!. What have they (JNA) allowed themselves? 2) Then, when Croatian police intervened, it had nothing with Croatian independence. At that time, there was no talk about independence; Croatia spoke about confederation. Untolerable situation forced Croatia to think about independence. 3) Again, Croatia hasn't seceded, it dissolved its "partnership" with other Yugoslav republics. Kubura 08:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Duja, the CIA report actually talks about this particular issue in some length. JNA in Croatia was under general orders to snuff out ethnic conflict there by separating Croat and Serb police/territorial defence/paramilitary forces as late as September 14th, 1991; JNA was trying to achieve this goal by putting its own units in between as a buffer where needed, with varying degrees of success. Once the Croats attacked JNA directly (“Battle of the Barracks”, starting on September 14th), Kadijevic gave the order (on September 16th) for the implementation of his “Strategic Offensive” in Croatia that I mentioned earlier. Once JNA was in open war with the Croats, its co-operation with local Croatian Serbs was logical for the following reasons: a) JNA and Croatian Serbs now shared a common enemy; cooperation on a local level was a given, despite the fact that the ultimate goal of JNA was quite different from the one Croatian Serbs had; b) areas controlled by Croatian Serbs were now the only areas of Croatia where JNA was not being shot at; in the eyes of JNA, this made Croatian Serb-held areas a logical staging ground for further military operations; c) strategically speaking, Croatian Serb-held areas were well positioned for “chopping up” Croatia into 4-5 disconnected regions in order to force its capitulation, something that JNA’s “Strategic Offensive” called for. For example, Kadijevic planned to use Serb-held western Slavonia to launch an operation aiming at capturing Virovitica and reaching the Hungarian border north of it (this would sever all links between Slavonia and Zagreb). A similar operation was planned with regards to Karlovac (to separate Zagreb from Dalmatia), in the vicinity of Zadar (to cut Dalmatia into two) and so on (the map of Kadijevic’s “Strategic Offensive” – that comes from this CIA source, by the way – is already in the article). All that said, it is clear that in 1991 JNA was fighting its own war with its own goals, rather that fighting for the establishment of a Croatian Serb (para)state at the expense of Croatia’s borders. Sure, Croatian Serbs benefited from many JNA military actions (but not all of them – JNA’s Dubrovnik operation, aimed at chopping up Dalmatia into even more pieces in an area where there were no Croatian Serbs, is an example of this); I would even acknowledge that to the Croats, it most likely seemed that there was no difference between JNA and Croatian Serb forces at all (although – arguably – the Croats were facing a much more serious peril from JNA given its main goal, especially if Kadijevic had his way with Milosevic). But the fact of the matter is that JNA was fighting for the goals spelled out in Kadijevic’s “Strategic Offensive", not for Croatian Serb 'Krajina'. Turning now to Kadijevic: he had many faults indeed, but accusing him of being one of the architects of “Greater Serbia” is ridiculous. This conclusion is going against his personal background, against his ideological background and (most importantly) against his actions at the time. His interest was only in preserving Titoist-style Yugoslavia (or some version of it), and there is nothing in the source to indicate that he cared about “Croatian Serb state” at all. Kadijevic resigned on January 8th, 1992, and his letter of resignation tells a lot: he said that “…my country [Yugoslavia] is dead, my position and my office are meaningless”. Such a resignation could have come only from a genuine Yugoslav, not a “Greater Serb". With regards to the rest of your comments, I have nothing to add - you said it all.--FreedonNadd 23:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"Secession within secession". First, Croatia hasn't seceded. The term "razdruženje" is used, meaning something like "departnerising", "dissolving the partnership".
Second, use the term "rebelled Croatian Serbs", not just "Croatian Serbs", it's not fair towards the loyal Serbs.
Rebelled Serbs had interest in more than Serb-populated areas of Croatia (though, not the whole territory of Croatia).
Yes, the rebels didn't want to be in Croatia.
Serbian leadership had their plans for the remains of Croatia.
Over the course of time, due to military unsuccesful campaigns, they've reduced their appetites.
Still, it ain't over till it's over. Prigode beru jagode. If opportunity arose (as it was many times during the war), the military goals have augmented (remember 1993 and the request for the corridors towards the sea, Hungary, southern Croatian territories, not to mention all Martić's and Karadžić's requests for the corridors).
Remember, when we speak about "what ifs", think as you were in 1993, 1994, not as you think now in this position.
What if UN-sanctions against Croatia were imposed? What if those against Serbia were lifted or significantly weakened? What if Milošević, Karadžić and Izetbegović signed a peace treaty, not to mention alliance? It was bloody close to that in 1993 (some plans were already in action, "Neretva 93").
"...because SFRY forces were trying to prevent Slovenian and Croatian secession and preserve Yugoslav state territory". You've said it yourself. Preventing the indepenence of Cro and Slo. Kubura 08:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

"Razdruženje" was a newfangled euphemism which came into brief use in late 1980s, apparently as an attempt of then still-ruling Croatian and Slovenian communists to create a more "politically correct" and "user-friendly" word for "independence". No one sane used it in normal speech, and no one uses it today anymore. I don't mind if you do find a better word than secession, (although I don't see what's wrong with it in English, quote, "Secession is the act of withdrawing from an organization, union, or political entity"), but please spare us from "razdruženje". Duja► 09:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

At last, you've forgotten what ideology was propagated in those times in Serbia.
National-expansionist ideology that was the "ideological justification" for the expansionist military campaign against Croatia. You don't know about the greaterserbianist delusions/stories about "Croats of Serbian origin", "catholicized Serbs", "catholic Serbs... (you have such Serb ultranationalist material as much as you want on en.wiki), "Croats in those areas like Yugoslavia", "they don't feel as Croats, but as special nation"....
Do you get now what Serbian military and academical leadership meant when they spoke about "the territories where Serbs live"? Kubura 08:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah, I agree, but you're really doing the tactics roda davi žabu now. What's the point of the exercise? I thought we were discussing the article title, as per WP:NC(CN) and blah blah. FreedonNadd doesn't have to be a local or have a first-hand experience about the War to argue what reliable sources say. Duja► 09:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion 3

"Razdruženje" has different meaning of "independence". Independence is a consequence of "razdruženje". "Razdruženje" has the other meaning of "secession". I'll provide you the proper iuristic term in English here, as soon as I get it.
"No one sane used it in normal speech, and no one uses it today anymore." This is your personal point of view, Duja. Duja, where did you get that from? Who "noone"? Maybe in Serbia, because there say that Croatia and other republics have seceded. But in Croatia say the other thing, and Badinteur's Committee has confirmed that.
"No one sane"? Duja, are you trying to insult those who use such expressions? You don't need this. Kubura 07:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion 4

V. Kadijević in his book "Moje viđenje raspada" (Belgrade, 1993.), on the pages 134 and 135 wrote: (the text is in Croatian translation)
"Zadatke izvršavati u dvije etape.
Prvoj, pretežno sa kontra udarima taktičkog značaja, dok se potpuno ne ispolji agresija Hrvatske, uz intenzivno organiziranje i pripremanje srpskih ustanika u Hrvatskoj,
i drugoj, jedinstvenom operativno strategijskom napadnom operacijom poraziti hrvatsku vojsku i izvršiti postavljene zadatke..."
Naglasio je kako je trebalo "poraziti hrvatsku vojsku potpuno ako situacija dozvoli... ostvariti zajedničko djelovanje sa srpskim ustanicima u Srpskoj Krajini;
omogućiti dovršenje izvlačenja preostalih djelova JNA iz Slovenije".
Po planu operacije, naglasio je Kadijević, uz već angažirane snage JNA, dodati još 15 do 18 oklopnih, mehaniziranih i pješačkih brigada kopnene vojske.
"...Ideja manevra sadržavala je slijedeće osnovne elemente:
blokirati Hrvatsku iz zraka i sa mora;
pravce napada glavnih snaga što neposrednije vezivati za oslobađanje srpskih krajeva u Hrvatskoj i garnizona JNA u dubini hrvatske teritorije.
U tom cilju isprecijecati Hrvatsku na pravcima Gradiška-Virovitica, Bihać-Karlovac-Zagreb, Knin-Zadar, Mostar-Split.
...jakim snagama iz rejona Herceg Novi-Trebinje, blokirati Dubrovnik sa kopna i izbiti u dolinu Neretve i na taj način zajednički djelovati sa snagama koje nastupaju na pravcu Mostar-Split.; nakon dostizanja određenih objekata, osigurati i držati granicu Srpske Krajine u Hrvatskoj.
Najjačom grupacijom oklopno-mehaniziranih snaga osloboditi istočnu Slavoniju, a zatim brzo nastaviti djelovanje na zapad, spojiti se sa snagama u zapadnoj Slavoniji i produžiti ka Zagrebu i Varaždinu, odnosno ka granici Slovenije."
I'll translate you the text in the English later. Greetings, Kubura 17:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion 5

Momir Bulatović said on one occasion (I read that in my papers few days ago): "We (Montenegrins )have to continue forward and take nothing less than western border on Neretva".
I owe you the source here (and where and when was that "occasion"). Kubura 14:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion 6

Attitudes of official Serbian leadership (Croatia and Slovenia were already internationally recognised countries at the time when these statements were said):
On 4th March 1992, in the talks with Cyrus Vance, Blagoje Adžić has introduced himself as "federal minister of defense of SFRY".
On 5th of March 1992, minister of defense of Serbia, general Marko Negovanović has said on the session of National assembly of Serbia (Narodna skupština Srbije): "JNA has withdrawn from some territories, redislocated in some other areas. If in solving of crisis some other solutions follow, JNA can return on that areas."
On the same session, Negovanović has told the deputies that "Yugoslavia is still internationally recognised subject" and "because of that, JNA can use whole territory as maneuvre area (JNA može da koristi celokupni teritorij kao manevarski prostor)". Kubura 08:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Crawling aggression on Croatia

There were few phases of the aggression on Croatia; there was "crawling", slow part and "regular speed" part. Kubura 06:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Title

I just have a quick question... can't we just call this the Homeland War? Since (a) it's what Croatians call it, and (b) the title isn't used for anything else (in fact, it redirects into this title right now). No one in Croatia or Serbia uses the term "Croation War of Independence". --Kitch ^{(Talk : Contrib)} 12:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense, this is not about who uses the term. The reason why "Homeland War" isn't used for anything else is the same reason why we shouldn't use it here. You can't title an encyclopedic article about a specific war "Homeland War", because it refers to the conception of the word, not a specific war. — LukaKrstulović 11:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Invalid. While I argued for the move myself earlier, the poll was spoiled by aggressive canvassing by Perroot (talk · contribs), now blocked. I don't mind restarting the poll from a clean slate.Duja► 14:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

---

Current title is misleading, inaccurate and presents heavy Croatian POV - it just cannot stand. The problem are as follows:

• Croatia was independent since early 92; The war (92-95), after Croatia was a fully recognized state, member of UN, it can hardly be described as "War of Independence" - it would be akin of calling war in Kosovo "Serbian war of Independence" - a plain nonsense.

It was not independant. It was recognized by the UN, true, but 1/3 of it's internationally recognized territory was occupied by a hostile foreign force. It can be argued that it only achieved full independance with the reintegration of Eastern Slavonia. --Dr.Gonzo 13:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Krajina was not a "hostile foreign force" and had support in majority provinces in Croatia, although there's practically no doubt that the Serbian military was involved in a less direct way in funding the troubles. The situation is akin to that of Transnistria. Zivko85 05:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• The period (92-95) would much more accurately be described as "Serb Krajina War of Independence" which ended

in expulsion of entire Krajina population.

It would not. It would be more accurately described as a Serb Krajina War of Aggresion. --Dr.Gonzo 13:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• The name, as pointed many times (this is not the first time this heavy pro-Croatian POV name is being changed)

is misleading and POV to the utmost. The essence of this war was Croatian wish to destroy Krajina and get rid of Serbs, and the problems there can be only described as conflict between local Serbs and Croatian government. Parallels with Kosovo are obvious. The result - ethnic cleansing of entire Krajina population - part of Mile Budak type Croatian national plan, genocidial policies towards ethnic Serbs, speak for themself what this war was all about.

No, the point of the war was to carve out a piece of Croatia (from it's internationally recognized borders) and to unite that carved out part with Serbia proper. This has been established through a number of ICTY cases against convicted war criminals Milan Martić, Milan Babić and others. --Dr.Gonzo 13:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This is not true at all. The Krajina was established befor Croatia's international recognition. The point of the war was to carve out Croatia in its AVNOJ borders from Yugoslavia. Nikola 21:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• While Croats will no doubt deny the genocidial nature of the 92-95 campagn to the UN protected Zones, what is at least clear is that there is controversy sparked by the title. Titles should be neutral, not controversial and should not serve to push one POV.

The community consensus is that this is the most NPOV and appropriate title for the article, confirmed in many previous RfM-s. --Dr.Gonzo 13:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What community consensus? It seems there is no consensus in any direction at all, which is a worrying thing. This should not be a polarised debate per WP:ILIKEIT - we should be deciding the proper, encyclopaedic name to use. A similar conflict in Russia in 1917-1920 is described as the Russian Civil War, and it would seem that a similar name would be appropriate here - either Croatian War (e.g. Gulf War, Korean War, Vietnam War), Krajina War (less acceptable although still correct) or Croatian Civil War (e.g. American Civil War, Russian Civil War). It is a matter of determining what encyclopaedic references refer to it as, and using that to inform us here. A quick search of Factiva suggests the former is the most appropriate. Zivko85 05:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• The name is not used - Croatian War is the english name, and to avoid ambiguity, (1991-95) should be added.There is no basis for this title in general english language, as already discussed. In English, Croatian War or War in Croatia is what is commonly used.

Incorrect. The only other suitable name would be Homeland War, but the community voted against it more than a few previous occasions. --Dr.Gonzo 13:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• The other similar conflict - Bosnian War - is not named Bosnian War of Independence. The obvious discrepancy is a strong argument and explains why this Croatian POV name cannot stand.

I don't see how the name of the war in another country is relevant to the name of this war. They are clearly completely different. --Dr.Gonzo

• The war is called "Domovinski Rat" in Croatia, which roughly translates as "Homeland War" or "Patriotic War". Obviously, this is from Croatian POV, but I would even less object to this name (it is not used in the West at all), as it at least has some basis in reality. For Krajina Serbs, who fought for their existence, and were mercileslly purged out of Croatia, this was merely a struggle for survival, especially in the light of what happened in WWII. For them, the title is insulting. Wikipedia as such should not offend any group by using a controversial and POV titles. The nature of the war is disputed between Serbs and Croats, and wikipedia should not, on its own, push one side.

• The war is seen as civil war in the west, just as the Bosnian War is. Both Bosnia and Croatia had Serbs as constitutive nations. In Bosnia, Serbs menaged to get their entity, in Croatia they were purged in genocidial campagn of ethnic cleansing. In SFRY, Bosnia was defined as country of 3 nations - Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks (called Muslims),

and similarly, Croatia was, despite the name, country of 2 nations, Serbs and Croats. This was due to genocide in WWII NDH against the Serbs. The Croatian state was as much country of Serbs as it was of Croats - both were constitutive nations, until Tudjman threw Serbs out of constitution. Thus, the internal nature of this conflict is evident.

The Croats were 78% majority, Serbs were 11% minority. The Constitution of 1990 recognized this fact. The rest is malicious lies. The true nature of the conflict was fueled by Greater Serbian tendencies, as recognized by the ICTY. The part about "genocidal campaign" is beyond reprimand. You present your views as "moderate", "NPOV", etc.? I LOL-ed. --Dr.Gonzo 13:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

No. Both Serbs and Croats were constitutive nations, despite difference in numbers. Serbs were not a minority. As for 1990 constitution, let's just say that one of constitutive nations didn't acknowledge it. Claim that some Greater Serbian tendencies existed is pure conspiracy theory. Nikola 21:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• As seen on this page, the name is pushed by a cabal of Croatian users. Their agenda is obvious - to spin the true nature of this war, most part of which was simply a comflict between autochtone Serbs and Zagreb, ending in a merciless genocidial purge. By using a POV title, they wish to hide the fact that the Serbs were true victims there, which is even recognized by ICTY, just as Albanians were in Kosovo during Milosevic era, indeed more so - as trully horrible crimes comitted in WWII cannot be excluded from the picture.

I find this comment insulting. Check the history of this page and you'll see that users of many nationalities voted to keep the current name. Furthermore, your assertion that the "Serbs were true victims there, which is even recognized by ICTY" is pure bullshit and you know it. --Dr.Gonzo 13:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Surely, there are lot of problems with the current title, which serves only Croatian agenda. As it is now, it cannot stand. The Bosnian War and Croatian War in the period of 92-95 were sister wars, in which nations who once lived on theritory of NDH struggled to define their future. Described as civil war by the west, its nature is hotly disputed between the factions. Wikipedia should not accept Croatian POV, be in discordance with the name for Bosnian War, use name not common in English, when a more neutral name - Croatian War or War in Croatia is obvious solution, with addition of the period to avoid ambiguity. Hvarako 17:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly the type of fudging of the facts you Serbs thrive on. There is nothing disputable about the facts. And this encyclopedia is here to present FACTS not OPINIONS. Therefore, this kind of BIASED bullshit cannot stand. --Dr.Gonzo 13:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Please note WP:AGF and WP:NPA - this sort of racial labelling is entirely unacceptable on Wikipedia. Zivko85 05:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

There have been many, many, MANY requests for move in the past and each and every one failed. When are you people going to stop? If you wish - post a RfM and see how far you get... --Dr.Gonzo 22:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

fully support Hvarako's ideas, but please note per WP:MILHIST guidelines the title should be War in Croatia (1991-1995), not 1991-95. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 22:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

No doubt, someone who moved Operation Storm to "Oluja Genocide" is qualified to speak about neutral POV... The Spanish Inquisitor 06:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out... Really, in light of this, it seems that Hvarako is yet another sockpuppet of some of the previously blocked users. It's really quite disturbing. I propose this RfM be closed immediately since it's clear it hasn't been started in good faith. --Dr.Gonzo 13:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Gonzo, you don't have to waste your energy, just because Hvarako isn't reading the arguments above. He has to obey the rules.
Shall we start rewriting the whole Bible again every time a new parachutist appear here with his childish "only I am wright, you are not"?
Hvarako is trying to make fools out of all us, of us that are trying to discuss something here. Mi svi ovdi nešto pokušavamo objasnit jedni drugima, a onda taj lik upada ka padobranac i kao razmaženo derle (like a spoiled brat) minja na oblik kako on hoće, ignorirajuć sve što smo svi mi drugi napisali? Sad svi mi ostali ispadamo budale. He has to read following sections "Croatian War of Independence (after 1991?)?", "Changing the article's title back to 'War in Croatia' ", "Hammering out a few facts (Re: "Croatian War of Independence" title for the entire article)".
But, instead of it, he just proposes "name change", without beating the arguments given above (that are enriched from time to time with new data).
We don't have to react on this childish gunmen-requests for move. Some of us spent a lot of time (that means, our personal free time, svoje slobodno vrime) collecting data and writing it here on this talkpage. Work is harder, because many times, we don't put our hypothesis, but we are searching for proper answers. Nismo mi bili nešto napisali u stilu, kao da si prepričao školsku lekciju. Ovdi smo morali dati odgovore na konkretna pitanja. A naslovi od poglavlja nisu naslovljeni prema tim pitanjima, nego moraš tražit podatke, koji često nisu indeksirani na kraju knjige, nego moraš rovat po knjizi od 400 strana.
A sad se ovaj nađe pravit pametan i kaubojski počne minjat po članku, naslovu, onda još i sa zahtivima, bez išta raspravit su nami. I sad smo mi ispali budale što se držimo pravila i taremo se oko podataka i gubimo (svoje slobodno) vrime ovdi, a on je sad ka' ispa pametan, sad je on ka' neka faca što se ne drži pravila. Zlouporabljiva naše strpljenje i suradnju. I da ćemo ga sad obadavat? Ma dajte.Kubura 08:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Htio ti ili ne htio, tako to mora bit. We have to adhere to Wikipedia procedure, and since there is so much sourced material in this article already, this should be easy. The burden of proof for his statements is on him. --Dr.Gonzo 15:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely support for the move! The majority of users (ChrisO, TheFearGod etc) who are not Croatian nationalists were for more neutral title, and there were Serbs as well as non-Serbs there. The old title should be restored, and Croatian cabal should really count as one (very POV) group. Hence, original title restoration has full support! Perroot 23:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I call foul! This user is WP:Canvassing, and clearly acting in bad faith. Also, I suspect it is a sockpuppet of another user since he/she has less than 50 edits before these, also involving heavy canvassing [27]. I call for the immediate dismissal of RfM! Also, the insinuation that there is some kind of croatian cabal acting to stack votes against NPOV is ridiculous, and very insulting. --Dr.Gonzo 01:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

There's way too many accusations going both ways, and you're hardly innocent of this - e.g. suggesting "(fudged facts) you Serbs thrive on" is entirely unacceptable and offensive. Zivko85 05:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move - As stated by many other editors, based upon precent set by other wars in the former Yugoslavia, the NPOV title should be used either Croatian War or War in Croatia. // laughing man 23:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I support returning the title to "War in Croatia" as the Serbs of Croatia opposed independence during the war and the Serbs were one of the two constitutional peoples and not a minority. Therefore this was a civil war, a War in Croatia, not a war of independence per say. Certainly the Civil War goin on in Iraq now is not the Sunni or Shi'ia war of independence. --Revolucija 02:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the move. It is both more neutral and more accurate. Nikola 21:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move to Croatian War (or War in Croatia) or, perhaps as a compromise, Croatian Civil War. The current title must be abandoned as fallacious, but any of the above would more correctly characterise the conflict in Krajina. Zivko85 05:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Zivko, laughinman, Revolucija ("red link", are you one of purposed registered usernames, just to troll around?), you're all playing dumb. Aren't you reading the materials above? And there's more. Even after Croatia became member of UN, Serbian ministers spoke about their rights to act on territory of Yugoslavia, although such Yugoslavia wasn't existing at all. Kubura 09:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move Per Gonzo's reasoning using the titles proposed by Zivko. This is a joke, seriously. Lets build an encyclopedia. Twenty Years 13:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move to Croatian War (or reordering of such as suggested) as the most logical and neutral title. It is a war which occurred within Croatia between two opposing parties, one of which had foreign help - not really that different to most wars around the world, but certainly not a war of independence. The song which charted around the world (including here in Australia) by Tomislav Ivčić (1991) was entitled "Stop The War In Croatia". Looking to news services - Deutsche-Welle, Associated Press and The Irish Times amongst many others, fairly neutral news sources, refer to it as the Croatian War and to its veterans as Croatian War veterans, Agence France-Presse and Washington Post (1995 and 1993 respectively) called it the "Serbo-Croatian war" and Croatian sources (eg HINA Zagreb) refer to it as Croatian Homeland War or the 1991-1995 Homeland War, which still doesn't reference "of Independence". The only reference I can find to this on newswires were by a number of small US and Canadian newspapers and never as a title (i.e. "the Croatian war of independence"). Nearly all of those references were contemporary to the conflict and do not reflect present usage (only three were after 1995). Orderinchaos 13:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reopening the discussion

I see that discussion is closed though it only started, and it showed that many users are for the move. I hereby reopen the discussion as proposed by Asterion closing discussion in this hasty way will NOT solve the problem. Hvarako

I believe we do need to have a fresh discussion, this time based on Wikipedia's policies rather than on personal or political sentiment. I would like to propose a move based on specific policy grounds, so that we can have a more focused discussion. However, it can wait a couple of days - I'll need a little more time to marshal my arguments before posting them here. -- ChrisO 22:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The facts are simple and the facts need to be represented in a titlw which will reflect them. One phase of the war had a direct threat to Croatias independance and involved directly the JNA. The other was based on Croatian soil- how can Croatia be fully independant without having full control of its own territory!? Even then the Krajina Serbs were just an arm of Belgrade- the troops' pay checks came from Belgrade for crying out loud. It would be folly to change the name of the article to one which does not reflect the facts.THE MILJAKINATOR 01:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I have read through all of the discussion, and have done some research for myself since i didnt use to know about this topic, however, i found it intresting even though i am not an European, i find it necessary to comment on the accuracy of the facts, and that reopening the discussion is not a good idea since nothing will be achieved. As the person above me stated, Croatia never had total control of it's land in 1992, and Yugoslavia was always a threat, and i believe the name of the article should not be changed since it describes the struggle of the independence the Croatians faced.

Professor Marco

Asm ccc 09:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)