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The Fascists for themselves

This is a portuguese blog[1]. It is a fascist blog (the name means “fascism at the net”). It links to Italian self-proclaimed fascist parties. Many posts of the blog are essays written several years (or decades) ago.

The post: it is a text from 1938. I know that 99% of you don’t read or speak Portuguese, but is a text saying that republic and democracy does not work and only a hereditary King can rule a country: “A Família é possível, porque o seu chefe é hereditário; uma vez que se introduza na Família o sistema electivo, a Família morre. Ora as Nações não são mais do que Famílias em ponto grande” (“The Family is possible because is chief is hereditary; if we introduce the elective system in the Family, the Family dies. Well, the Nations are nothing more than Families in big size”). The author of the text, Alfredo Pimenta, was a Monarchist, who supported Germany during WWII.

Another post of the blog[2]. The issue is a lament for the “absence of the right-wing” (“a ausencia da direita”); apparently, the author considers himself a right-winger…

Another portuguese blog[3]. It is also a pro-fascist blog – look to the pictures: Ezra Pound, Celine, Abel Bonard, Robert Brasillach, Drieu La Rochelle, Julius Evola, Arno Brecker (there is also Hemingway, but these is because the author is an aficionado of the bullfight)…

The post: an article criticizing “the empty rhetoric of the left-wing” about the riots in France. Should be noted that the author, Bruno Santos, is one of the leaders of the National Renewal Party, a party with strong conections with the Front National of Le Pen (who claims to be right-wing)

The site of the “New Rigth”[4]. Many texts are from or about Evola, Carl Schmitt and Oswald Spengler, fellow-travelers of fascism (remember, the title of the site is “New Rigth – Nouvelle Droite”!)

An article about Spengler[5]: “Prussian socialism is thus essentially «not concerned with nominal property, but rather with techniques of administration --- The Old Prussian method was to legislate the formal structure of the total productive potential while guarding carefully the right to property and inheritance, and to allow so much freedom to personal talent, energy, initiative, and intellect as one might allow a skilled chess player who had mastered all the rules of the game. This is largely how it was done with the old cartels and syndicates, and there is no reason why it could not be systematically extended to work habits, work evaluation, profit distribution, and the internal relationship between planners and executive personnel. Socialisation means the slow, decades-long transformation of the worker into an economic civil-servant, of the employer into a responsible administrative official with extensive powers of authority, and of property into a kind of old-style hereditary fief to which a certain number of rights and privileges are attached.»”

Aparently, the model of National Socialism (or “German Socialism”) is not the left-wing socialism, but the feudal order.

From these articles, seems to me that: a) it is usually fascists consider themselves “right-wing” (in reality, I don’t know of any self-proclaimed fascist calling himself “left-wing”); and b) It is a great tradition of close cooperation (and ideological juxtaposition) between fascists and the traditional conservatives, monarchists and nostalgical of the feudal Old Order. If this is not “far-rigth”, what is “far-rigth”???--81.84.81.90 02:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

First Spengler was ultimately alienated from Nazism and not a leader in it. Also I agree they're certainly willing to use traditional conservatives and monarchist. I just disagree that that makes the two things identical. Many "traditional" types in Italy and Germany considered were suspicious of fascists as radicals who would upset the existing order. Much of their support in those quarters came from fear of socialism and communism. And to think the Nazis would sincerely want feudalism is either taking a few films they did as literal ideology, or is wish fulfillment on your part or is just blatantly ahistorical. Lastly modern fascists don't necessarily represent the actual ruling kind. Still all that said I agree fascism is far-right. I just think that we've moved beyond 1848 so "far right" now means something different then it did in the revolutionary days.--T. Anthony 05:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The question is not if Spengler was pro-Nazi, but if the Nazis was pro-Spengler (and I think they was).

I am not also saying that Fascism and Traditional Conservatism was identical, I am only saying that they are closely related.

In republican countries, like Portugal, Spain (in the 30), France and Germany, the nexus between Monarchists/Traditionalists and Fascists were very strong:

in Portugal, the National-Syndicalists were founded, in the 30s, by the former member of Integralismo Lusitano, a monarchist group; before that, in the 20s, both monarchists, fascists and Catholic activists were in the “Cruzada Don Nuno Alvares”, a group opposed to the Republic; after that, in the 60s, the fascist group “Movimento Jovem Portugal” were founded by former member of the “Junta Escolar Monárquica”. The main book of the leader of MJP, Antonio José de Brito (a self-proclaimed fascist), is “Our Masters – the Guidebook of Counter-Revolution”, a book about the De Maistre, Bonald, etc.(in these book, he says that the fascist tradition is different from reactionary tradition, but, simultaneousy, recognize the influence of these thinkers)

in Spain, the Falange was founded by José António Primo de Rivera, the son of the conservative military dictator Miguel Primo de Rivera, and many of his first members were disciples of the traditionalist group Action Española (today, Falange is for the republic, but only adopt this position when the King Juan Carlos begins to democratize the country)

in France, the Camelot du Roy, the youth wing of the monarchist Action Française, turns massively to fascism after 1934. Charles Maurras, the leader of the AF, was an admirer of Mussolini (but not of Hitler)

in Germany, the Nazis were inspired by the Conservative Revolution and by the “socialism of the chair” (a group of intellectuals who combined the defence of monarchy with economic planning)--212.113.164.104 16:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I think they dovetail into each other and have often been willing to feed off each other, in least to some degree. I'm just not convinced they are as interconnected as you believe. Especially in the case of Nazism because as I recall many conservative aristocrats were uncomfortable with the street-violence and radical social change the Nazis wanted. I think that's part of why they purged the SA and set up things like the Protestant Reich Church. In the case of Italian Fascism it's closer, but there's their connection to the Futurist movement and generally revolutionary nature that makes me skeptical. "Iberian Fascism", Spain and Portugal, or Clerical Fascism I could see as just fitting though.--T. Anthony 03:01, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The truth is that "left" and "right" are leftist terms. We can't very well let them set the terms of debate, now can we? ;) Sam Spade 04:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I mentioned why facists call themselves rightwings, cause they are stupid and they believe the propaganda that the non-racist socialists, who think they are true libertarians or liberals(classic liberals) and think that Hayek and true liberals(classic liberals)and liberatarians are right wingers. Original facists, though nutcases, were intelectuals, but neo-facists are stupid on top of crazy. Neutral nobody

I don't agree w almost any of that. There are a number of reasons why people call themselves "right", and their are a variety of inteligences behind the "fascist far right". Le Pen, for example, is nobodys fool, nor is Silvio Berlusconi, who has some very interesting conections. What do you know about the international third position? Sam Spade 16:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

distinctions

I saw a nice college tele-course last night that had alot to say on useful sociological distinctions (as opposed to false left-right dichotomies). One was individualism vs. collectivism. The other was legalist vs. kinship based societies. Sam Spade 16:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lead paragraph

Current lead paragraph seems a bit weak to me, also a bit POV.

The term far-right refers to the relative position a group or person occupies within a political spectrum. Since, by definition, most people are not far from the center, the terms "far-right" and "far-left" are used to say that someone is an extremist, not in tune with the majority. "Far-right" is thus usually a pejorative term. Due to this circumstance, the division between far-left and far-right extremists can sometimes be difficult to discern. The rhetoric and positions advocated (Populism, revolution, social unrest, violence) can often appear very similar.

"…by definition, most people are not far from the center". Not necessarily: consider the Weimar Republic, or the Second Spanish Republic. Both were torn apart by polarization and the lack of a strong center.

What is going on in the fourth sentence: Due to what circumstance? That the word is usually pejorative? That makes no sense. Does "Due to this circumstance" actually carry any meaning here, or can we just drop it?

"…the division between far-left and far-right extremists can sometimes be difficult to discern." Seems POV. I happen to agree with it, but it still seems POV. Can't we cite someone on this, if we want to say this?

It seems to me that if we want to talk intelligibly about similarities between far-right and far-left politics:

We need to track down citable material of scholars pointing out the similarities, and if only the theoreticians of totalitarianism are being asked to carry all this water, maybe we should just link to totalitarianism and not try to replicate the arguments here.
We need to discuss similarity of tactics and ideology, above all the cocksureness and the willingness to resort to violence.
We need to discuss similarity of outcomes, that both far-left and far-right once in power tend to form dictatorships or, at best, plebiscitory democracies. The project of forming an elite tends to be explicit on the right; on the left, it tends to be disguised as the need to form revolutionary cadre.

Obviously, in those last two points, I've indulged my own views. That can't go in the article without finding someone citable who says it. Right now, all we have is an uncited remark ("The rhetoric and positions advocated (Populism, revolution, social unrest, violence) can often appear very similar," that I'm not sure belongs there. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:26, 19 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have also had concerns, particularly w that "most people are not far from center" bit. Center of what? "Most" people? Rather than try to cite this stuff, lets just keep rewording it until we have an agreeable intro, one any reasonable, informed party can accept. Disputed claims requiring citations don't make for the best intro.

I don't see leftists as being more able to disguise their intents, but maybe thats just me? Think about the communist party oligarchs, corrupt union leaders and so forth. All that "power to the workers" stuff is bunk, both sides make such populist claims. Hitler was very big on jobs and bread. I guess maybe leftists believe it more, since even lowlevel right-wingers generally arn't looking for equality anyways...

In any case, its clear to me that there isn't much substantive difference between these general catagories of extremists, despite their rhetoric, but as I have said I'm not that enthused w the current wording either. Sam Spade 01:41, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I gave it a kicking, have a look. Sam Spade 02:11, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have some doubts about "eugenics" being a "leftist concept".

Perhaps the sentence "The far right has often been associated with social and religious conservatism, reactionary nationalism, jingoistic chauvanism and economic libertarianism, but this varies wildly." should be "The far right has often been associated with social and religious conservatism, reactionary nationalism, jingoistic chauvanism and economic proteccionism, but this varies wildly.": in Europe, the far-right is, absolutely, anti-"economic libertarianism" (and I suppose that, even in the US, the paleo-conservatives are proteccionists)--81.84.81.121 19:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I edited accordingly. Re: Eugenics, you may want to look into its history more closely, esp. planned parenthood's founder, Margaret Sanger. Sam Spade 06:46, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hopelessly muddled - merge

This discussion was moved to Talk:Right-wing politics. Sorry, my mistake, I didn't realize I was starting the merge discussion on the wrong page.--Cberlet 17:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In sorting this out, note that a non-trivial article Extreme right was redirected here without merging any of its content, which included several academic citations. When someone sorts this all out, they will probably want to salvage at least some of the lost material. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thats completely inaccurate. Sam Spade 17:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's sure what looks to me to have happened. If not, could you elucidate? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look @ [6] and [7]. I made sure all the factual info, links and book citations were merged. Chip deleted much of that. What I did not merge was this POV mess:

"The Extreme right or Ultra right is the term used by most scholars to discuss right-wing political groups that step outside the boundaries of traditional electoral politics. This generally includes the revolutionary right, militant racial supremacists and religious bigots, Fascists, neo-fascists, Nazis, and neo-Nazis."

Because it was variously POV, redundant, and factually inaccurate. As I have said all along, Cite "most scholars" saying anything, much less these generalisations. Sam Spade 02:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I must have looked at the state where the material was deleted. I didn't realize that the material was moved and later deleted, I just followed up the redirect and didn't find the material. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:05, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not what happened. Sam Spade rewrote the text and made it innaccurate. See:[8]. I then deleted the rewritten and now inaccurate text rather than have a text that misrepresented what the cites I added covered. The cites point out that the term is used by different authors to cover three different ranges of right-wing politics, not that some scholars use the term to cover all three different ranges mentioned in the three bulleted paragraphs. That was self-contradictory and false. I leave it up to others to make any changes. I am currently refraining from text edits, but I will step in to discuss claims that I think are false on talk pages.--Cberlet 12:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I edited his text. If he had made a counter edit (rather than a revert or deletion of a block of text) progress could have been made. This is a Collaborative editing editing project, mr. berlet. Sam Spade 22:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sam Spade, please go back and read the two edits. You edited what I wrote to say something completely different.[9]. The problem is that originally what I wrote was cited to several specific books: [10]:

Betz, Hans-Georg and Stefan Immerfall, eds. 1998. The New Politics of the Right: Neo-Populist Parties and Movements in Established Democracies. New York: St. Martin's Press.
Betz, Hans-Georg. 1994. Radical Right-wing Populism in Western Europe, New York: St. Martins Press,.
Durham, Martin. 2000. The Christian Right, the Far Right and the Boundaries of American Conservatism. Manchester, England: Manchester University Press.

You rewrote the text, rewrote the subheading, and the end result was a set of claims that were not only not accurate, but also mis-cited to the books I had cited to buttress my original paragraph. Your edit is to collaboration, what the Visigoths were to non-violent civil disobedience.

And please do not refer to me as "mr. berlet."

Also, how can I pass up this opportunity to note that the original character of Sam Spade was created by a lifelong socialist.--Cberlet 23:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why, why, why...

With a {{mergefrom}} tag sitting on this article, and a {{mergeto}} sitting on Far right—a noun, and therefore a suitable title for an article, unlike the adjective far-right—did Sam Spade turn the article with the acceptable title into a redirect to the one that violates the MoS. Sam, can you explain your action? Was this just a mistake, or did you really have a reason to do this? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Are you an admin, Jmabel? If so, move this page to Far right. That would be fine. They have already been merged together, and I certainly won't object to that. Sam Spade 00:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Great! -- Jmabel | Talk 01:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Prior to this rather complicated move, the only discussion at Talk:Far Right (where this is now being moved) was as follows:

"Note: a discussion involving this page and its future is taking place at Talk:Right-wing politics. Please leave this page here and do not redirect it until that discussion is completed. Thanks.--Cberlet 22:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And this notice:

This article was nominated for deletion on December 1 2005. The result of the discussion was merge with far-right (and vice-versa).

Mys e kurity^{(have you seen this?)} 05:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

-- Jmabel | Talk 02:10, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

OK, now that the page has been renamed, why the dispute header? What is being disputed, why and by whom? Sam Spade 04:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, dispute header removed. Sam Spade 18:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Far Right Party?

What qualifies? Christian Heritage Party of Canada? Or maybe Nationalist Party of Canada? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.199.116.198 (talk • contribs) 1 April 2006.

Does Canada have to have a party to label far right? Feeling left out? ;-) GUÐSÞEGN – U T E X – 20:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of the current political parties labeled far right section?

Remove this section? Wikipedia is not a political blog... Intangible 00:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the list. Intangible 01:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Far right = left????

Political compass On the website Political compass it is argued that parties labelled as 'far right' are actually more leftist than most modern main stream parties. 'Far right' cannot be correct as a nomer because advocating government control (far left) cannot be a polar opposite to advocating government control (far right).

Actually, communism (government control) is the polar opposite of the free market ideology. Communism is primarily an economic ideology whereas fascism is a social ideology. They are not, nor have they ever been (except in rhetoric) polar opposites. The term 'far right' therefore is incorrect and used by parties identifying themselves as 'left' to discredit the 'right'. Unfortunately for them, fascism is all about state control (if not state ownership of the means of production, then certainly state control of them).

Political compass argues that advocates of state control all belong on the left.

It introduces 2 axis: -an economic x-axis (horizontal) where communism (state control) and free market ideology (no state control) are polar opposites -a social y-axis (vertical) where authoritarianism and libertarianism are polar opposites.

--82.156.49.1 04:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that this is an accpeted diversion, and that far right and far left are indeed misnomers. This article is suitable in its POV/accuracy however. Flying Hamster 04:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 04:08, 12 November 2006 edit 82.156.49.1 (talk) No edit summary ← Previous edit		Revision as of 04:13, 12 November 2006 edit undo Flying Hamster (talk \| contribs) Extended confirmed users 506 edits →‎Far right = left???? Next edit →
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			: I believe that this is an accpeted diversion, and that far right and far left are indeed misnomers. This article is suitable in its POV/accuracy however. [[User:Flying Hamster\|Flying Hamster]] 04:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)