Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1526–1867)

I stick to my former version because

• not only the nortwestern part of Transdanubia belonged to the Royal Hungary but all the western half of it (the historical counties of Zala, Vas, Sopron, Moson, Győr, Komárom, Veszprém)
  • I do not know what you are talking about, any map you look at clearly shows that it was the northwestern part, not the western - unless you are considering Burgenland part of Transdanubia, but than the text has to be changed

• almost all the present Northern-Hungary region was part of Royal Hungary ie. Borsod, Abaúj, Zemplén, Heves, Nógrád counties + Szabolcs, Szatmár and Bereg
  • it is very weird to use the very modern term "Northern Hungary" without any addition in this context and since this is so evident, I see this as a deliberate attempt of deception, actually

• the Royal Hungary had its own parliament, the Hungarian Diet and institutions, the Habsburg kings were elected by the Diet and they should take on oath on the constitution of the Kingdom of Hungary - this is more than enough to say that the Royal Hungary wasn't a province but a de iure independet kingdon in personal (and partly real) union with the Habsburg Monarchy. Zello 17:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • And what do you think the situation was say in Bohemia and other "provinces" (that's what the word is supposed to mean and it does not stem from me) of the Habsburg Empire??? Which other "provinces" do you think are meant by the sentence??? "Autonomy" is a wrong term, because it implies some "technical" arrangement. And, irrespective of this, the degree of "autonomy" (in your sense) was by far the lowest out of the "provinces" of the Empire, because the territory was very small and because it was in constant conflict with the Turks. Juro 08:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Bohemia had the same degree of independence until the Czech Uprising in 1620 when it was abolished. Hungary wasn't part of the "hereditary lands", and theoretically only the person of the King connected it to the provinces. Of course in the 16-17th centuries personal union always meant real union in some degree. Zello 15:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The point was: Bohemia, just like (I assume: any) other land ("province") of the monarchy had its own diet and its own authorities, even if some powers were repealed in 1627. What you are talking about are formalities of the royal title arrangement, the real situation is or rather should be what matters in retrospect. The Hungarian throne was de-facto also "hereditary" after 1526. Juro 01:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This is what the Habsburgs thought when they tried to put away the obligations of the Hungarian constitution. There were several attempt to do this but every time an uprising followed (Bocskai, Bethlen, Rákóczi György, Thököly, Rákóczi Ferenc) and they should accept the former status quo. This is really different than the fate of the other provinces that never resisted to the Absolutist intentions of the Habsburgs or they had a catastrophal defeat as the Czech Uprising. Of course the relative success of the Hungarians were mainly due to the help of the Transylvanian Princes in the 16-17th century. Zello 17:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This is correct, but technically this was not topic. The issue was not to what extent the individual parts of the monarchy resisted or tried to resist Habsburg centralism. Juro 00:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Tired

I am tired of attacks by hungarian users on article about Croatian history. Because I do not want to play defensive any more, maybe is time to solve few questions about Hungarian history:

• Source is not saying:"Royal Hungary was the name of medieval Hungary "
• Revisionist statement:"Habsburgs were recognized as Kings of Hungary" When by Who ? From my history knowledge hungarian parliament has not elected Habsburgs, but only minority of nobles (rebels ?)
• "Emperors addressed their possession with the name of "Kingdom of Hungary" where is source ?
• "took an oath on the constitution of the Kingdom of Hungary at the coronation". Source please ?--Rjecina (talk) 11:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Type "Royal Hungary" in google and click on Britannica link. Habsburgs were always crowned as kings of Hungary and sometimes as Kings of Bohemia.

Btw, there wasn't democracy at that time to elect a king as if to elect a government.--Bizso (talk) 20:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I miss here the important information on how the Habsburgs became hereditiary kings of Hungary (the compact concluded by old Vladislav Jagiello with the Habsburgs) and the refusal of Zapolya to respect this treaty. And that the death of Vladislav's only son Luis II virtually and legally transferred the country to the hands of the Habsburgs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.135.240.254 (talk) 09:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Time-frame

According to my sources (Istorija Mađara, Beograd, 2002), term "Royal Hungary" was used from 1538 to 1699. Which source claim that it was used from 1699 to 1867? PANONIAN 11:44, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Kingdom of Hungary (1538-1867)

We should expand this article to 1867 because Royal Hungary was only the first part for the era of Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary, the second part of the Habsburg era lasted from 1699 to 1867. This expanded article is the missing link between Royal Hungary and Austria-Hungary.Fakirbakir (talk) 20:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I moved this page because, I had seen an admin(Dbachmann) tried to do something with this page and the aim was the same like mine.Fakirbakir (talk) 20:48, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

I think page of History of Hungary (1700-1919) belongs to this article. We could read the entire interval from 1538 to 1867 in one article. I also suggested a 'split' there because of the period of 1867-1919.Fakirbakir (talk) 13:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I am going to do the merging, however I am going to put the period of 1867-1919 to the page of Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen, instead of page of Austria-Hungary (my earlier split proposal), because the text is specifically Hungarian theme.Fakirbakir (talk) 17:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

In this period, especialy till 1699 was not term "Kingdom of Hungary" in offcially usage. Territory of older "Kingdom of Hungary" was divided to Royal Hungary and Eastern Hungarian Kingdom (later Principality of Transylvania). And it exists article about "History of Hungary during Ottoman administration". So I think it would be better to make separate article about Royal Hungary and rename this article to: "History of Hungary during Habsburg administration" or "Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary".. --Samofi (talk) 10:05, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The Habsburg Hungarian kings were elected and crowned by the Hungarian nobles from 1526 to 1916. Royal Hungary was ruled by Habsburg Hungarian kings. Royal Hungary was an "official" kingdom and was not part of the Holy Roman Empire (nor Kingdom of Hungary in the 18th century). For instance, Royal Hungary or Kingdom of Hungary was ruled by Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor from 1655 until 1705. Leopold's title was also King of Hungary. There was no other kingdom before or after 1699 just only one (Kingdom of Hungary). Fakirbakir (talk) 10:47, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you and I think that Royal Hungary deserves own article. This article is about history of Hungary during Habsburg administration. Royal Hungary has special administration (Captaincies), special capital town, diet and so on. Its one from the sucessor entities to which the Medieval kingdom was divided (eastern HU kingdom, transylvania, royal hungary, budin eyalet, egri eyalet, principality of upper hungary and so on..). Almost each of these entities has an own article. --Samofi (talk) 11:50, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Fakirbakir, I do not understand well your proposal. Do you suggest moving/merging some sections of the History of Hungary article here? What would happen to that article then? Should we replace the text with some brief summaries? And what do you mean by also suggesting a "split" there. In the History of Hungary article? Why should we split it? That article already has a section on the period 1867–1918. Apologies if I am a bit slow. :-) KœrteFa {ταλκ} 10:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear Koertefa, This was an old proposal. The merge was done in last October. There was a page "History of Hungary (1700-1919)" and I did split that. Its first part -until 1867- merged into this article (and I also expanded the period of this page to 1867 , because previously the page covered only the term of "Royal Hungary", 1526 (1538) - 1699)) and its second part -from 1867 to 1919- merged into the page of Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen because I think it was more logical.

Recently, I have only responded to User:Samofi's new suggestion, because he wants a separate article about Royal Hungary again. I think there was only one Habsburg Hungarian Kingdom from 1538 (1526) to 1867 (1918).

This section (above) was my first idea before the merge. Fakirbakir (talk) 11:25, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Ohh, I see, thanks. It seems that I am not just slow, but blind, as well. I did not notice that it was an old proposal, sorry. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 12:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Fakirbakir told: "I think there was only one Habsburg Hungarian Kingdom from 1538 (1526) to 1867 (1918)" any source about this? I agree with term Habsburg Hungarian Kingdom like a term covering history from 1538 (1526) to 1867 (1918). But I see the name of the article: "Kingdom of Hungary (1538–1867)" As I know medieval Kingdom of Hungary was divided to Eastern Hungarian Kingdom (later Translyvania) and to Royal Hungary. Eastern Hungarian Kingdom was not a Kingdom of Hungary? According to Erwin Fahlsbusch: realm was trippled to Ottoman region controlled by Turks, Habsburg region (so called Royal Hungary) and Eastern Hungary with Transylvania [1].--Samofi (talk) 13:31, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Samofi. The period 1538-1570 is problematic, because the Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary was competed by the Eastern Hungarian Kingdom. I thing we should create an article named Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary or Royal Hungary that would cover a period including those years Bzg1920 (talk) 07:45, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I see the problem with the Eastern Hungarian Kingdom, still I think that the title and the covered period of this article are fine, since Royal Hungary can be seen as the continuation of the medieval Kingdom of Hungary [2]. This article should, of course, mention and link the Eastern Hungarian Kingdom article, as well, and talk about the partitioning of the medieval kingdom (e.g., Battle of Mohács, Treaty of Nagyvárad). KœrteFa {ταλκ} 08:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

KœrteFa pls can you cite, what exactly is written in that book? I can cite books which talks about partition of medieval Kingdom of Hungary: Vera Zimányi calls this region "historical Hungary" what means region of "medieval Kingdom of Hungary after partition between Ottoman, Habsburg and Transylvanian rulers" [3]; Carina L. Johnson (Cambridge) "Hungary was further divided to Habsburg Hungary, Ottoman Hungary and Transylvania" [4]. Sources about loss of continuity: Levente Tattay "KoH was slowly restored only after reoccupation of Buda" [5]; [6] or that Transylvania has continuity with KoH [7] [8]. Hungary as "Habsburg region" [9] and so on. Royal Hungary is well established term for "kingdom" and this article covers "History of Hungary during Habsburg administration", there is no direct continuity with Medieval Kingdom. --Samofi (talk) 17:55, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not find any claim in your sources that would deny the continuity of Royal Hungary with respect to the medieval Kingdom of Hungary (KoH). None of us argued against the fact that the Eastern Hungarian Kingdom (and later Transylvania) also had some continuity with KoH. Nobody denied that KoH was under Habsburg control in the period covered in the current article. The article that you cited about the "restoration" of the KoH only talks about the restoration of its state structure. And, of course, "Royal Hungary" is a well-established term. So what's the point of your references? Anyway, we can come back to the point of having a separate "Royal Hungary" article if someone (preferably without topic ban [10]), comes with strong arguments. So long and thanks for all the fish, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 05:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

If sources says that Kingdom was divided and only Transylvania retained a something like continuity? We have a lot of sources which says that Transylvania has continuity with KoH. So why its not mentioned in this article? Or why its not mentioned here Eastern Hungarian Kingdom? Kingdom was divided. Vera Zimányi calls this region "historical Hungary" not Kingdom of Hungary (1538-1867), its synthesis. Its no google.book search for this: [11]. I am topic banned from Slovak/Hungarian national and ethnic disputes. This is about terminology. Its 5 880 hits for "Royal Hungary" and term "Kingdom of Hungary" is used very rarely this period. Find a 5 sources which says that Royal Hungary has continuity with medieval Kingdom of Hungary. --Samofi (talk) 06:32, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Successor(s)

Why are both of Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen and Austria-Hungary mentioned as successor entities in the infobox? It is kind of redundant, because the Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen were a part of Austria-Hungary Bzg1920 (talk) 11:30, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

In my oppinion Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen were successor of the Habsburg realm Habsburg Hungarian Kingdom, in the same time these Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen made a dual monarchy with Austrian empire so they became equal with Cisleithania in newly formed Austria-Hungary.--Samofi (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2012 (UTC)