Talk:List of One Piece characters/Archive 1

Merger

I DON'T WANT IT TO END UP LIKE THE NARUTO ARTICLES. I LIKE EVERYTHING THE WAY IT IS. PLEASE DONT CHANGE IT. THANK YOU. Snickjames55 (talk) 00:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC) It is time to change the way One Piece is organized on this site. There is no doubt that One Piece is notable, but the various subtopics are not as lucky. With the characters, they do not pass our fiction guidelines (WP:FICT and WP:WAF), or our other content guidelines (WP:V, WP:N. WP:RS, WP:NOT, ect). That is why the various character articles will be merged to this one, concise list. The rest of the information will be available over at the One Piece wiki, which is a very good place for this information. I know people won't like this, but it is the best thing to do. Please remember that this is a discussion, and not a vote, so numbers do not rule.

Not all of the characters will be covered here, though. Many are too minor to really need any sort of mention here. They will be summed up by their crew or island of origin if it it is large enough. In depth information, again, can be found over at the One Piece Wiki. TTN (talk) 21:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep the core pirate crew article and put the rest in appropriate lists as needed for WP:Summary Style. We just need someone who can read japanese and write english for out of universe information. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 22:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oda only release bits of information in a Q&A format, which are all translated by various people. These provide little tidbits, but they are not enough to establish notability. Anyways, most of the characters do not need coverage, so there is no need for separate lists. TTN (talk) 22:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Japan has numerous magazines dedicated to the world of anime and manga, but of course they're written in Japanese. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 22:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

As I said, like most manga authors, he does not provide a lot of information. If you think that's wrong, you're going to have to show a case where magazines actually provide real world information then. In every single discussion dealing with anime and manga characters, people go on and on about how information can be found, yet nobody ever gets any. With a good number of Japanese speaking users, there is no excuse as to why this information has not been found besides the explanation that there isn't any. TTN (talk) 22:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Will you move the articles over to wikia? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 22:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The One Piece wiki linked up above has everything covered. They transfered over everything a long time ago, so they should have everything here and much more. TTN (talk) 23:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

In general it would be a good thing, though. Want to start doing that for pages that haven't already been moved? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 23:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

If you can point out any articles that they do not have (note that some will not have the same exact names as these), sure. But the site should already have everything here, as the main user that moved everything over is still a fairly active editor of these articles. TTN (talk) 23:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) I guess I mean with all articles that are redirected, not just One Piece, which has exceptional editors. Basically, if you would transwiki everything you redirect and give some lee-way to articles that do have some out of universe information in them, I might even be able to support what you're doing. I don't know if you're using scripts or whatever to make editing easier, but if not, there's probably one that will do the transwiki with a minimum of clicks. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Okey dokey, I call bullshit. Anyone can say anything; now, explain exactly how these pages do not meet those guidelines. No weasel words. No double talk. No circular logic. And keep on point. (Justyn (talk) 08:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC))

The One Piece character articles do not live up to our standards. They have no chance of living up to them at this point. These standards are non-negotiable, and they are found in our policies and guidelines. That is the reason that the characters belong over at the OP wiki. TTN (talk) 19:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

NO WAY! If your going to merge the One Piece character articles, then AT LEAST do the Naruto and BLEACH character artciles as well! - Smashman202 (talk) 18:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Everything will have its turn. TTN (talk) 19:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Where did you answer my question? You can't say "doesn't meet the standards", you have to booping explane HOW they don't. An argument only carries as much weight as its evidence; and you have put in absolutely no evidence in any form outside of your interpetation some rules. Well guess what?

I can interpret them too! And my interpretation says that not only are these articles sourced, but they are notible. And therefor, they can have pages! (Justyn (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC))

I'm going to go over this once. If you don't get it or you just don't care, don't bother to respond. All articles on this site have to establish notability. To establish notability, they must have information from reliable sources that shows that the topic is important in the real world. Again, this is for all topics. Fictional topics establish notability by including real world information, such as creation and reception information from the creators and reviewers. These do not have that information, so they do not belong here. TTN (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, you talk a lot, but you say little. All you did was rehash Wikipedia policy, you never gave even the smallest reason as to why these pages should be merged.

I asked for something beyond a rehash of policy with no context of how it relates to this situation other than: "These do not have that information, so they do not belong here". Also, how conviniently you skip over the part were the policies say that time should be given to allow for sources to be found before the article goes to merge or delete. Maybe you don't like the parts that slow down your deletion-fest; but, I'm not you, so I don't know what you really think. But I can tell what it looks like you are doing, however.

And on top of that, you call yourself the end-all be-all of what counts as a source; so, where, prey tell, did you gain this omnipotence? Or do you just see yourself as a better than the rest of us mindless peons? (Justyn (talk) 01:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC))

They do not have an appropriate amount of real world information (How is that not specific enough?), and these articles have existed for a long enough time. You need expansive real world information in order to keep these, not a random mention in a comic that counts as trivia. TTN 20:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Let the Pirate pages stay. It'll keep the One Piece characters page from getting too long. Rtkat3 5:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Most of the minor pirates not going to be covered in detail, so it won't matter. TTN 22:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Reseting line: I just read over your so called "case". These pages already meet the criteria. I will say this once: YOUR CASE HOLDS NO WATER. It is obvious that your only hope for getting your way is to not shut up untill we all give up and let you have it. Well guess what? You just met someone that is willing to be petty enough to put a stop to people like you once and for all.

These are pages that do fufill the criteria THAT YOU CITE. But you don't care, just as long as you get to delete pages.(Justyn 02:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC))

Uh, if any of these established notability, they would at least resemble Harry Potter, Dante (Devil May Cry), Nicole (Dead or Alive), Ned Flanders, Sarlacc or any of the other good character articles. They look nothing like them, and they fail WP:N, WP:FICT, WP:NOT#PLOT, WP:OR, and a few others. TTN 02:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

They DO pass, just not as strongly as those ones. And your whole reasing is that four people can't FIND magazine sources written in another language, therefore they don't exist and the pages should not exist.

Now, define how they fail at them. NOW. I will not stop HOUNDING you to do this.

SP:N requires just two sources. These have them.

WP:OR HOW exactly is this original research?

WP:FICT Once again, how does this break that rule?

WP:NOT#FICT See those other two above this.

(Justyn 03:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC))

No, they do not. WP:N requires significant coverage in reliable sources. These have absolutely none. Indiscriminate comics and in-universe information backed by reliable sources have nothing to do with this. WP:FICT expands on this by requiring development and reception information. These have none. All they have are overly long plot summaries and descriptions (NOT#PLOT) and an original synthesis of information from the chapters and episodes to form other sections (WP:OR).

First, if it is original information, delete said information, or, maybe for once you can actualy do as the policies say and rewrite it rather than dele... no, you just nuke things, sorry. And how is a notible webcomic directly referencing, and focused on the characer, exactly, indescriminate? (Justyn 04:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC))

TTN 03:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

And no, the sources do not exist in Japanese. That is just a cop out argument used in every manga and anime debate. TTN 03:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

And you know that, how? Where did you gain the ability to prove a negative? And if you can, WHY are you not in the news? I mean, either you have some increadibly intricate logic, or you are just a giant... no, you must be a genius.

And alright, I'll admit, I have never, ever seen one of these articles personally (I remember seeing an english one reveiwing the Arlong and Davy Back Fight arcs in an American magazine, though I don't remember the name). But saying that they definitively don't exist is like saying Bigfoot, UFOs, or Nessie don't and can't exist just because you have never seen them. (Justyn 04:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC))

I forgot to post here, but as a long time wikipedia editor to the One Piece pages I'd like to point out a few things:

I point to the wikia, which we have now well established (having over 1,800+ pages) when I asked us to please seriously consider, as editors, not One Piece fans, on whether or not we should merge articles. I'm talking about cutting out ALL the individaul pages for characters. Its something I've supported for a while now. To raise the issue I have several points I like to make:

1. Once upon a time I went to a lot og hassle adding references to all the characters pages... Now only a few survive. Without references, a page is hard to check up on. A good example of such a page, is Brainiac 5, look on it and tell me what where are the references to that character? I recently wanted to check up on the information on that page (I do look at other non-One Piece related pages) and found it very difficult to do so and I resulted in reading twenty comics to find the single issue with the correct information in it. This is what happens when you don't reference things.
2. NONE of our character article have real life links which are important to wikipedia.
3. A lack of editors is restricting the workload we can make to the pages. With fewer and fewer editors to do quality checks on the pages, there is now too much work load. With the episode and chapters pages its just a case of pulling up information off somewhere else and placing/correcting whats there. With character pages you have to sit through enter episodes/chapters, thus there is much too much of "Own research" which is disreguarded on wikipedia.
4. The wikia is now at a good quality and can fully replace the pages here on wikipedia. Its easier to monitor, updated daily and (almost) every edit is error checked.
5. Fanism is hitting the pages hard right now. We have information made by fans, for fans. We should be writing for any reader, not just OP fans.
6. Plot points... They are not suppose to be on wikipedia at all, but every character page has a "story" section. Huge amounts of detailing is added as each new chapter comes out without summerising it nor compacting and removing old info.
7. Information overload. Okay, some argue the OP characters have more information on them then say a series like... Outlaw Star. Fine... But if we compare it to a character that does deserve a page, for want of a better example, Superman you'll find this makes One Piece pages look like mere stubs. Seriously, compare that page with any one of ours and you'll find the Superman article is well sourced/referenced.

And there are several other points which have slipped my mind right now. But the main fact is, we have the wikia. We can also strengthen the wikia by merging the wikipedia pages, pointing others to the wikia to learn more information, wikipedia is just a quick guide and information on series. There are about 300 pages on the wikia for characters, against our 12-20 or so pages... In comparison, everything we have on wikipedia is dwarfed in quality by its wikia counterpart. Their not perfect, they are still works in process but their a dam sight better then here. I've watched these pages for many months, they are as bad now (if not worst) then they were then. I'm not prepared to do the entire list of One Piece pages by myself, if others help I'll spend the time bringing the pages up to quality, but I'm mostly editing the wikia these days and barely have time for that let alone wikipedia.

Neverless, its time to question whether or not we continue on, breaking many of wikipedias guidelines in the process or make life easier and don't. A good example of a page that broke the guidelines and was put up for deletation was One Piece Timeline... Except. Its not there anymore! Angel Emfrbl 10:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Very well put. Fundamentally, there is little point for individual vexation based on content issues which run counter to core wikipedia policies, when wikias exist for allowing precisely such content to flourish. Eusebeus 15:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's actually reached Bleach, you know. I actually support over half of the Bleach characters getting merged, but the main 7, Byakuya, Kenpachi, Aizen, Gin, Kon, and Toshiro shouldn't. Notably, the last two have out-of-universe info. You might go "Wy don't you just get it then?", but if you think it's so easy, why haven't you ever tried it? And I suggest you ignore Naruto, TTN, we're on the works of doing it ourselves and moving at impressive speed. You'd only get in the way unless you follow the directions being set up. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 16:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

In terms of real world context, when it comes to in-universe things thats where your covered by the media.

Interviews, documentries and reviews are the support here... Yet I see none of those on the OP pages either. I know OP has been in a few Japanese documentries, but alas in that text we also reveal the major problem with that at the same time. Oda has done many interviews, if you search you'll find them on the web + translated. Reviews only come from magazines and offical/legit sources... New Type magazine seems to love reporting on OP and I did add a ref to that somewhere (don't know if its still there or not). Get the article covered by these kinds of real world context things and you've got a page that can't be easily knocked down on wikipedia.

This isn't too difficult to do, all you need to do is look for things. SBSs will hit the spot, but not hard enough on their own I also point out. Angel Emfrbl 17:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's a few refs for the main characters: [1], [2], [3], [4] - Peregrine Fisher 18:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

TTN, please think for a moment. Yes, Bleach and One Piece should be shortened down like Naruto has been doing to their articles (it's been removing unmentionable characters and is merging little by little. Baby steps ^_^). But think about it, is it really wise to stuff every character who is notable (and thus have a lot of info) into a single page? No, it'll reach 100,000 bytes in no time. Make other ones, like List of One Piece villains or List of major One Piece characters. The Straw Hats Pirates should be merged to the Straw Hat Pirates article if they do get merged, not with almost every other character. You're being to rash and not thinking, which isn't a good thing. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 18:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't see this getting past 40kb if I can keep out the fan cruft. Luffy should probably have about three paragraphs. The rest of the SHs can probably have two. Most of the villains and secondary characters probably only need one, with the exception of the ones like Ace, Vivi, ect, who probably need two. Most of the other minor characters will be described in a general island/crew section if they are to be covered at all (i.e. ones like Krieg probably won't even be mentioned). TTN 20:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay,are you even listening to what your saying?The series has been going out every week for over 10 years.How in the name of hell do you wana put up an equivalent of 40 years of monthly publication into 3 paragraphs?Did you ever check other,non anime/manga character bios?By your logic we could merge Bruce Wayne into "List of Batman characters" or merge every damn superman page.You are just not geting that AMERICAN and western fiction should get the same treatment as NON AMERICAN fiction.Plus,you seem to just bend your rules into what you desire and Im prety sure your absolutely in NO POSITION to put up a mega merger of 40 plus articles into one.You want Real Wolrd information-well this may be news to you-but this is FICTION.If you wana find all those "tidbits" ,go to Arlongpark.net which have profesionaly translated all the SBS per volume.Also you can easily find and link an Oda interview if youre only wiling to.Just looking on a page and deciding to delete it,instead of requesting theese to be linked if you are not capable of finding it yourself-that is weak and egotistical.I mean,I could bend the rules as well and say,that fer instance Oxford fails on notability and should be cut and put on "List of British Universities".Crash Bandicoot has no real life info.But hes got his own page.Cortex has too. Yet theire both characters with NO information from real life,at least with 40 times less then OP has.This is why I have quit wikipedia-cause people like you come over and decide to destroy months of work,cause they CAN.Why,by your standarts,our entiere OP coverage would be "One Piece is a japaneese manga/anime series" on the back of a lengthy and anoyingly non informative "List of Shohen Jump Series".I will do everything in my power to stop you. User:New Babylon —Preceding unsigned comment added by New Babylon 2 (talk • contribs) 11:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

And please don't just assume that this or anything else is just off the top of my head. I've gone over how this is going to work quite a bit, and anything like random AfDs are for when people are not doing their job like in the case of Bleach. I'm pretty sure that I have mentioned in the past that the Naruto group is doing fine, while you're acting like I'm some sort of blind kamikaze bomber. TTN 20:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

KK I'm gonna go ahead and call a lot of things here, and later I'll hit the Naruto pages with a few of these too:

• Unnecessity and bullshit seeing as these changes are not called for like they were on the Naruto pages.
• Referring to and using the One piece wiki as a base for the template, which basically uses wikipedia as the new host for One Piece wiki (against the rules)
• Claiming superiority, ignoring, and ganging the one who opposed this instead of searching for a real consensus. Elitism has absolutely no place on wikipedia. At all. Also, you've been putting down the other wikipedia pages - especially Bleach - for what they are at the moment. However, that's much for useful to the common wiki user than what you have planning for One Piece.
• And most importantly, forgetting that the rules should never get in the way of improving an article. What you plan to do to the One Piece articles is completely uncalled for and will only degrade the quality / usefulness of the article. What use is there even having an article if it's basically a lengenthed stub? I lol'd at your idea that Don Krieg - the first real villain in One Piece - should be removed from the One Piece pages altogether.

Sincerely, AnimeNikkaJamal 22:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay lets look at all the previous comments here. A lot of editors here are commenting on how the pages should be kept. This is what, the 4th time Mergers have been mentioned? I got ranted at for merging articles myself after I had to do something to control a previous mess we had. The anti-merging campain was a wasted effort! Funny thing was, I got it down, everything worked out brilliantly in the end, but at the time I had murder being screamed out me (not literally, metaphoically speaking). But though and behold, once I stop merging articles... I find that all those that screamed murder disappeared, which is what made me take the stance I have now with them (I won't do anything unless someone else is prepared to aid).

All I'm saying, is what is the point of commenting to save a page if we have to go through this process in 6 months time when no one hasn't done a thing to mend the problem. I even tried to set up a project page for them to help things along, but I didn't get the support I needed to establish this so it got as far as the draft set-up. I even got accused of trying to own the pages when all I wanted to do was get something done about them when I was just doing what a wikipedian is suppose to. And lets face it... At the end of the day, if the works not done, there is no point is allowing a page to continue spiralling out of control.

I'll say it again; We need to decide now once and for all what to do. The best two outcomes I'd like to see from this discussion are (and I fully support both of these):

1. The articles are merged to prevent fanism from cropping on the pages, make life easier for everyone since there are fewer editors editing. Finally also allow the wikia to completely break away from wikipedia completely once and for all and at the same time allow the wikipedia pages to take a step in a direction of their own.
2. The editors who supported the keep actually get off their high horses and help me (and anyone else who cares) to improve the pages so in 6 months time we don't have to (for the 5th time) reconsider the state of the pages. That means a complete tidy up, references go back on the pages, someone tracks down every interview and enter information where needed, someone checks up our pictures aren't vilolating copyright rules on wikipedia and that all the unness. fanism is taken off the pages. Oh and the pages themselves recieve a complete overhaul so they can be generally tidied up.

As it happens, the Straw Hat Pirates page actually covers all the information needed for each of the Straw Hats, therefore we don't actually need any single page for them. We might not need to merge at all, but just redirect them there. Once done, we can also reference that entire page to avoid further possible deletetions of any page. Its tiring going through the same routines every time we have to take a look at the pages... Its true, we're not as bad as the Naruto pages were, but we certainly are no position to brag about them either.

Also, its hard to do anything right now while we're waiting to see how this turns out. Angel Emfrbl 15:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah,id like to help referencing and I always write it down when I know from witch chapter/episode it is.I just have to endorse AnimeNikkaJamal 's point, what use would the OP pages have if we would just have a stub page with no but the most basic info that realy wouldnt be helpfull altogether.I mean, no one ASKED you to do this,YOU dont need it be done and most importnantly the ARTICLE doesnt need it done,nor do the users.Your the only one who suports this,dont you get that if everyone else says "No" then its not a good idea and that if you enforce it by simply repeating your non-existent arguments and bedning the rules to your own whims OVER and OVER again so long until everyone will get tired and stop talking to you,so you can do it in ,is damn dumb.

New Babylon 2 16:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to quote you Angel:

• All I'm saying, is what is the point of commenting to save a page if we have to go through this process in 6 months time when no one hasn't done a thing to mend the problem. We can't predict exactly what will happen in the future, and whether the addition of future information then warrants article mergers now. Honestly, the pages should be thouroughly revised as you specified, with the copyright checks, refferals, and fanism removals, but most of this can be done w/o merging major pages. Obviously there are pages don't need to exist on their own, such as the Arlong Pirates, Bellamy Pirates, the Black Cat pirates, Buggy's Band of Pirates, Don Krieg's Pirate Armada, Foxy's pirate crew, The Saruyama Alliance, and the Wapol Pirates. The Whitebeard Pirates and Blackbeard Pirates, despite their major influence, can be merged into the list for now as well, seeing there isn't enough information on either. However, crews like Red Hairs and Straw Hats should retain their own articles, and each of the Straw Hat crewmembers affords his own article. Ace and Shanks article can be merged into their crews' section, and the Navy/Marines should have their article merged into the World Government's. That'll free up more than enough space and keep the articles everyone wants either on their own or in a place that's easy to get to and contains relevant info.

AnimeNikkaJamal 23:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Please remember that this is not a fansite. Without real world info, the most a series like this requires are the basic details of the most important characters to supplement the main article. Anything else is fan content, which can be found over at the One Piece wiki. You can try to work around the policies and guidelines all you want, but unless you can provide significant real world information, one list will suffice. TTN 23:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

TTN! One Piece Wikia is not a fan site ethier!

Before you ask, you probley wonder who I'am; I'm Edwardadrian the guy who motived fans to come and bring effort in One Piece Wikipedia and it's been a really long time since I last edit here. I'am one of the major editors in the One Piece Encyclopedia under the username of Joekido and I came tell you that the whole merging plan is really an insult to an injury to One Piece. I'am thankful for your support for One Piece Wikia but your merging plan is not good for both this Wikipedia and One Piece Encyclopedia.

We want One Piece Encyclopedia to be a place where people who are fans or not can read and write about One Piece and expand the information much as Wikipedia can offer and not just say "Okay, we have One Piece Wikia so everything here is transfered over there so I'm going to merge everything here so people can say 'golly gee, the information here is bad so let's go to One Piece Encyclopedia where they have bigger balls then here!' " which is a bad idea.

• This action can result at making OP Wikia a laughstock of other Wikia commutity

• This action would bring fanism to OP Wikia which would ruin that site's reputation and make that site a dump site

• Look at Wookiepedia, it's enjoyable to both non-fans and fans because it does not subject itself to fanism and we want One Piece Encyclopedia to be on the same level of enjoyament as Wookiepedia.

Now while I understand you want to support One Piece Encyclopedia but OPE is differant from Wikipedia and you don't need to merge everything to make people go to OPE. Please TTN, think of other people and don't try to merge anything here.

Edwardadrian 00:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Fine, we'll call it a specialty encyclopedia for right now. Anyways, this merger has nothing to do with it. This is to conform to this site's policies and guidelines, while still allowing access to this information in another venue. Articles on this site needs to be covered in reliable sources to exist. For fiction, the information from these sources must pertain to creation, reception, and similar information. The One Piece characters do not have this, so they need to be condensed. One list is all that is necessary so far. You'll see that there are three featured Star Wars characters at this point, so they deserve coverage here and over there. TTN 01:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not really a big editor, but I am a long time Wikipedia user, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that giant lists are not good. I know that they are subject to a bit of fanatisism, but these are not so overly crowded. Sure, some minor characters shouldn't have their own pages (not like many do) but the StrawHats and other major pirate crews, along with other things deserve to keep their own pages. And, it seems to me that it's pretty much only one person who's wants to do this to these pages. What would be the point? since Wikipedia is to inform people, and this is exactly what it does. I say we fix the pages up a bit, but overall they are pretty good. Why change what works? Pikachu150 5:51, December 4th 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 01:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to suport this opinion.I mean,TTN,NO ONE ELSE WANTS IT DONE BUT YOU,and if EVERYONES AGAINST IT,aint enforcing it by sheer REPETETIVNES a bit dumb?

New Babylon 2 12:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Woah woah. Things are getting out of control here. Another outbreak an I'll have to ask an admin to get involved to help solve this. Bot sides need to learn lessons, however. TTN, you have been ignoring and breaking many rules here in such little time. You have no superiority to send merges to every One Piece article and to gang up on those who oppose this. You have been uncivil, acted superior, and other things. As soon as I am done with this message I am reporting you. One Piece editors, you will have to realize that eventually you'll have to merge articles together. Naruto did it because of the threat of multiple deletions, Bleach and Marchen Awakens Romance and others are doing it so it won't happen to them. One Piece will eventually be targeted at this rate, and you'll have to deal with it. Simply trim down articles, remove all minor and unmentionable characters (Dr. Blackbeard is the best example to come to mind of most unmentionable), and merge a few like Ace or Enel or Vivi. Not just characters, either, but other articles. However, if you find out-of-universe info, then put it in there quickly to save the article. Procrastinate no longer. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I have nothing against general mergers,but first of all minor characters are stil notable-Dr. Blackbeard is the starter of Ace's Cover Arc.But leaving that aside,merges of crews,yes.Merges of characters and triming down information beyond comon level-RESOLUTE NO.I didnt quite understand if you actualy proposed merging Vivi with Ace, that would make about as much sense as merging Joker and Gordon in one article,just cause they had met.New Babylon 2 (talk) 23:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Psst... Actually D.Blackbeard isn't the start of the cover arc and he appears all of about 2x in the cover story, Ace starts by just looking for BB and never finding him. I'll have to agree on that one, you have to draw a line somewhere. He didn't even appear in the anime.

Moving along, Vivi and Ace can still be cut down to 3 paragraphs though NB. If you cut it down they can be merged and thats the problem. And we still would have two pages with in-universe stuff on. Which brings us back to square one of the debate (again).  :/Angel Emfrbl (talk) 23:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sub-section one for length

Got too lengthy there. Anyway, you do need to realize not every character should be mentioned. Just because they have a name doesn't mean you absolutely must mention them. Such minor characters are for Wikias. Only characters who are impossible to not mention, like Dragon, Dr. Kureha, Dr. Hiriluk, and Dorry & Broggy, should be mentioned. Ones who have no real affect at all should be ignored and left only in the wikia, like Dr. Blackbeard and Igaaram's wife. If you don't realize this, I will be forced to removed them myself on the account of fan cruft. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 21:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

And where do you get that crock of shit? (Justyn (talk) 21:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC))

The current plan will be to merge to one page, and split if real world info is found, or it is just impossible to cover the characters in one list. Real world information would probably mean the Straw Hats having an article, and too large will mean major and minor character articles. This will allow for perspective, and it will keep the cruft down. TTN (talk) 21:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I was actualy speaking about the whole "no minor characters that did not have a huge impact on the plot, period" matter. But I still disagree with your idea, and that is your plan, not the end all be all of what will happen. Remember, Wikipedia has actual policies reguarding what happens when stuff would happen that would actualy be detromental to Wikipedia. You seem to quite easily forget it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justyn (talk • contribs) 00:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

IAR is not for content disputes. TTN (talk) 00:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Actualy, yes, it is. IAR stands for ignore ALL rules, not "ignore all rules, exept for the ones the deletionist uses for nuking articles". For the love of Pete! WP:IAR states flat out: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it."(Justyn (talk) 01:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC))

It's completely subjective, so you cannot invoke IAR just to one up someone. See Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means. TTN (talk) 01:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I can when you are the one that started wikilawyering. All I'm doing is saying that if you can ignore the rules to just so you can fuel your agenda that next to noone agrees with here; I can ignore rules to actualy make Wikipedia a better place. And I really hate it when people make me say this but: cruft is not even a guideline, let alone a policy; and IT says that being cruft is not a reason for deletion.(Justyn (talk) 02:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC))

Hey, hey. No offence TTN and Justyn, but your beginning to mudsling here and are apparently attacking each other. This won't solve the problem at hand now will it? While your ranting and raving over rules here, we've still got a dozen articles that aren't following wikipedias guidelines... Would two be so kind as to get back to the decussion because while the rest of us are watching your egos clash, no one can possibly discuss the matter without fear of being caught up. Can I advise you argue over these things on your talk pages? Your hardy ignoring the rules that prevent an article progressing forward if y ou yourselves are the ones prevent it going forward. ^_- Angel Emfrbl (talk) 12:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how correcting someone trying to use IAR as a trump card is anything but that. Whatever the case, I'm certainly not fighting with him. TTN (talk) 16:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

On the Contray, while its a good thing to do, unless it helps brings the discussion to a closure its hardly worth it. My response in in general since you two started off the discussion with this kinda of argument. Discussing the rules and what applies is nice, but its not got us anywhere. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 17:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have a way to solve this once and for all.Lets just people say if they support the merger,as YOU (meaning TTN) propose it AT THIS POINT in its ENTIERITY.Then youll see if its needed/worth it or not. User:New Babylon 2 —Preceding comment was added at 12:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not a vote. Arguments come before numbers. My arguments are based in policy, and yours come from the standpoint of a fan. If you want to keep some of these, find real world information. You can also jusy make use of the One Piece wiki. On that point, what is wrong with going over there? Is there some sort of benefit you receive by reading less detailed versions of the articles over there? Do you think that if they don't have articles here, the world will end or something? TTN (talk) 16:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep the articles ... One Piece is a very notable manga and thus the core characters should be kept as they are ... 77.46.206.10 (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah! You see that is not a very useful response. We need plans, reasons and suggestions. Would you care to expand on this response to make it a bit more helpful? Perhaps it is time for us to start weighing up the options, suggestions and things that are being discussed? I'm not saying finalise the discussion yet, just start putting solutions rather then endless rules and leding into an argument on the rules then the subject of the discussion? Angel Emfrbl (talk) 17:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is good as it is and I don't think that there is a problem with any of the articles ... Maybe a bit of cleaning up will do the trick ... And I agree that some very unimportant characters should be left out or just referenced ... SSJ 5 (talk) 17:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

At the very least, I'll agree with that. Lets see if I can make a few things a bit clearer at this stage. The discussion have had a sub-line, but it could have done with a summery report of some sort when it was cut. Lets see if I can speed it up by highlighting points so far.... This has worked in the "Zolo/Zoro" argument and another, lets see if its 3rd time a charm again. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Nope we should not. 69.202.119.212 (talk) 02:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Okay I’m going to write up what we’ve discussed so far because a couple of people are ending up not helping at all.

Reasons For

1. Articles fail rules: WP:FICT, WP:WAF, (WP:V, WP:N. WP:RS, WP:NOT. The most important thing is they are fall WP:N, WP:FICT, WP:NOT#PLOT, WP:OR.
2. One Piece wiki – We have this now which can take over the things. Articles were already moved in Oct 2006. The wikia is fully funicational as a good quality replacement, without fear of using wikipedia as a template at all.
3. Only needs to be in appropriate lists as needed for WP:Summary Style.
4. Oda only release bits of information in a Q&A format, which are all translated by various people. These provide little tidbits, but they are not enough to establish notability. In other words, articles must have information from reliable sources that shows that the topic is important in the real world. Fictional topics establish notability by including real world information, such as creation and reception information from the creators and reviewers. TTN pointed out they don’t exist, having been around the fandom for a while I can ensure EVERYONE they do exist… But no one has ever put them up.
5. All articles on this site have to establish notability.
6. A lack of editors is slowing up the progress with bringing articles up to snuff. There is no wikipedia project to support the OP pages and make sure everyone is organised.
7. Fandom is slipping in, with information going on the pages that only a fan of the series would need to know, not a general reader. Goes back to point 4 of this list about the “in-Universe stuff”.
8. We only need 2-3 paragraphs on each character.
9. Wikipedia is not a fan site.

Reasons Against

1. Supported by a number of fans and editors who don’t like the changes.
2. No logic in a mass unneeded merger.
3. Other articles mentioned in worst state or given as examples for one reason for another.
4. No greater explanation as to how they fail the rules.
5. SP:N requires two sources… Pages
6. WP:OR, one argument is that the pages do not fail this point because they are not original research. If the sources are established as common facts they do not fall into this.
7. There is a lot of information on each character in comparison to other shows.
8. One massive page full of information.

Notes

1. Much information which is lost because it only comes out in Japanese – No excuse for this even still.
2. In the Against Merger boat, no. 5 is indeed correct but the sources for the most part are not up to scratch. Even on pages with refs, where is the ISBN no. to the volumes of the chapters the information came from? Interviews need a link to a translation at the very least…
3. Reasons Again no.4 there is a lot to be said here… Too little time to fully explain it.  :/
4. Against point no. 7. Define “A lot” is something which bothers me slightly on that statement.
5. On this point… This is great if it’s a quick discussion to say, but it is seeming to be used here (which bothers me) to have the final say in the matter at hand. Your arguing over this rule/guideline… Yet by doing so are completely going against the point of the rule which is not to let the rules and guidelines get in the way of the discussion. Or this point.
   • Some of us are getting to this point.

Proposal

Several Proposed approaches have now been put forward for us to discuss that some or no one supports. There are other ways of doing this:

1. Merging all characters into one page.
2. Second version same as above but main characters are kept.
3. Merging all characters into their crew pages.
4. Again same as above but main characters keep their pages.
5. Leave as it is and do improvements to the pages to above this in future.
6. Make major and minor lists and merge there, and merge the Straw Hats to something like List of Straw Hat Pirates, where, except Luffy, the max. should be 3 paragraphs, the standard for merged characters.

That’s 5 solutions here. I think I’ve summed up everything. I think an admin will have to be called on this soon by the little we’ve achieved so far in bringing this to a close.  :/

Added another suggestion. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 00:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Anyone got anything to add to this? Angel Emfrbl (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

All I really have to say is that we should start at #5 for each and every page; than we work our way down the list until all the pages are either reasonably satisfactory to all parties, or all merged. (Justyn (talk) 23:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC))

If you feel that they can be improved, please do so. There has been plenty of time, especially since the last merge discussion, so there is no need to leave the articles around indefinitely for it to happen. If they're merged before they can be improved, either work on them in a sandbox, or gather the sources and apply them immediately after bringing them back. TTN (talk) 23:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

1. 4 makes the most sense to me, applied only to major crews. Minor crews and their characters don't qualify for their own page and should be subject to #1, as I stated before. AnimeNikkaJamal (talk) 07:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
2. 4 also makes the most sense to me. I provided a few refs above. TTN can say move it to a sandbox and only bring them back after improvement, but that's his opinion and isn't backed up by our guidelines. It's just one particular editor's opinion. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 07:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree ... No. 4 or No. 5 make the most sense ... Improve the pages and leave some unimportant out or just reference them in minor characters page. SSJ 5 (talk) 15:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

May I remind everyone no.5 is pointless unless there are people willing to do just that. As for me, I have no preference I'm just here to check editors aren't putting bad info on the page. The only thing I don't support is no.5 going ahead with no one to help with it. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I support a sixth suggestion: Make major and minor lists and merge there, and merge the Straw Hats to something like List of Straw Hat Pirates, where, except Luffy, the max. should be 3 paragraphs, the standard for merged characters. Ships excluded, moved to Straw Hat Pirates instead. Also, please note major is someone like Ace, Vivi, or Shanks. Minor allies like Dorry & Broggy and Dr. Kureha should be put in the minor list, and major allies, major major enemies (not Morgan!!!!!), and some like Mihawk and Dragon, who will be important in the future, should be put in the major list. Really Minor' characters whose only real importance is having a name should be mentioned only in the Wikia, like Dr. Blackbeard or Conis' father. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 22:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said up there, two or more lists can come after the one list is finished. If it is just impossible to cover them all in the one, it will be split accordingly. Anyways, minor allies like Dorry & Broggy and Dr. Kureha will be summed up in prose (i.e. Kureha may just be covered in Copper's section or in a general section about that island), so I don't really know if we'll need a specific minor list if the main list becomes too long anyways. It will probably just be the Straw Hats and this list if there is any sort of split. Also, two paragraphs will be the max for any character besides Luffy, who could stand up to three. Remember that that this is not a fansite, so intricate details are unneeded. TTN (talk) 22:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You know what? Why should there even be Wikipedia pages on these characters? The Wikia pages already exist, why not just turn every One Piece page into a redirect to a wikia? And why stop at One Piece? Naruto? Bleach? Dragon Ball? Star Trek? Star Wars? All of them have wikias, so why not just redirect every page in all of those into their respective wikias too? And why stop at fiction? There's a camera/photography wiki, we can redirect everything that has to do with cameras. There's a wiki for Webcomics, anything and everything webcomic related can go there; and hell, a wikia can be made on ANYTHING, so really, what use is Wikipedia? Before ANYONE asks: yes, this is satire.(Justyn (talk) 07:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC))

I don't think that is helping anyone Justyn... You might want to reconsider your choice of words and actions.

A page can exist so long as there is appropriate material on them to support. Again I point to the page Superman. When our pages look like that, we can say none of this should go ahead. Also please take note of this very useful guideline: WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Listing off examples randomly to support the keep of articles or even using them in an argument in any way isn't going to help us nro you at all. Seriously Justyn, think before you type. I would to keep all the pages as they are myself, but I admitted long ago this is too much for the support and editors we have around at the moment. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 09:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

First: satire. Second, I was poking at his "I don't care, they should not even be mentioned" policy but mostly the "well the wikia is there, so why should we have these pages" attitude by taking it to its logical extreme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justyn (talk • contribs) 11:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to point out; most of the "reasons for merging" are baseless bull spouted out by TTN. When you really boil it down, there is no reason to merge these pages. It is stated explicitly that the series' author or creator CAN be used as a secondary source; so those three or four SBS quotes can and do count as secondary sources. And for some reason, there are no rules on what makes a character notible enough to be seperated from a list: so I would have to say, sources maybe? So, the pages, at worst, only violate a guideline; and can anyone tell me how they even do that? (Justyn (talk) 12:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC))

Notes from the creator can help, but they are practically useless bits of trivia at this point. Which animal they resemble or smell like is hardly even real world information as it stands. You need creation and reception information from varying sources to build fairly large sections in order to have them become anything more than fan articles. Right now, you at least need to establish notability with a few of them. Please read the policies and guidelines that you're trying to cite before using them in an argument. TTN (talk) 13:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and can you answer these questions: Why is is so important that the characters are covered in-depth here, when you have a resource that clearly has better articles, rules, and anything else that would make it easier for One Piece fans? Do you believe that because the characters have been cut down that the main article is suddenly not going to be notable? TTN (talk) 13:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I largely disapprove No. 6 ... I'd like No. 5, and that all of us pitch in to help make 'em better. SSJ 5 (talk) 18:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Numbers 4 or 5 sound like the best options to me. There is no need to merge every single character from a decade-long series into a single article and cut down on the information given. Merging all characters into their crew pages wouldn't work well either, because there are some characters (i.e. Shanks, Blackbeard, and Smoker) that are extremely significant to the plot, but not members of the Straw Hat Pirates. For merging it into a single article: even Naruto, a series that is one hundred chapters shorter than One Piece, has many characters that have their own articles! There is no need to limit the major characters of a series that is almost five hundred chapters in length down to three paragraphs! (Megadoomer16) 15:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

To be dead fucking honest, TTN, I just don't like what Deletionism has become, and what the Deletionists are doing to Wikipedia. I honestly think that WP:N and all of its intruction creeped brood are nothing short of worthless. If something can be sourced properly, why the hell should it not have an article? Now, I'm going to start working on improving the articles, if no one wants to help me: I'll just do it myself.(Justyn (talk) 11:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC))

Justyn, you should be aware of how WP works. A few user can control WP:N and use it to control all pages. You can go and try to change it, but bring at least ten super dedicated editors with you, otherwise you'll be shot down. Other than that, your opinion doesn't really matter. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 11:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I am aware of how Wikipedia "works", the Deletionists just abuse rules to make plowshares into swords, whine, or just not shut up to get their way; for an example, look at what TTN is doing: completely ignoring concensus and even policy to a degree to conform to a guideline (and note that guidelines themselves say that you should ignore them if they defy common sence in an issue). And to top it all off? TTN is ignoring the parts of the guidelines that he cites for merging these pages that say that he should first try to fix the pages before nuking them. (Justyn (talk) 01:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC))

My only other comments on no.5 (everyone's favoured choice) is that if we choose that path... Someone has to set up a project page to make sure this sort of thing is avoidable. If anyone is interested, let me know as I set up a lot of info once upon a time and I'll point to where it is for you. If we go with 5 and things continue as they are its rather difficult to make sure that this doesn't keep happening otherwise. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 19:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, so I think it is getting to the point where we should start merging (It still probably won't be for a few days). People are still free to try to assert notability if they wish, but there is nothing to keep the articles up at this point. The current plan is to merge to one list, and split if its necessary. I remind all of the opposers that you have the One Piece wiki, which contains this info, and much, much more, so please make use of that (Nobody ever did answer the question of why the info needs to be in such great detail here). TTN (talk) 00:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Why does ANY information need to be in great detail here? I mean it's not as if there is no limit on space or anything, no, that can't be it. And as I said before, you just want to merge and delete pages, seemingly for fun, so nothing we do will ever satisfy notablity in your book. And that is the whole problem with it: far too subjective, anyone can say "does not prove notabilty" even if the article has fifty sources from Time magazine, dozens of newspaper ones. And noone ever questions the Inner Party... I mean Deletionists because they're like locusts, for every one you discredit, there are five more waiting to spout the EXACT SAME BULLSHIT.

Now, all this boils down to is "are the sources we have good enough to satisfy the deliberately vague worded and subjective guideline". And we can argue like cartoon characters 'till the cows come home about how they do or do not. Or we can just ask "How does deleting loads of information and then merging it all into one obcenely long and unwieldy list make Wikipedia any better?" (Justyn (talk) 00:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC))

Note that Not Paper specifically states "This policy is not a free pass for inclusion", so it is best to refrain from citing it until these actually do fit our policies and guidelines. Anyways, I am not interested in discussing your view my actions, so please stop trying to bring it up (though, this would be "mergism" if you really need to apply a tag to it). If you find and add non-trivial information to the articles, they can be brought back. Look at some of our good and featured articles for what you need. You'll see that it is nothing like what you have tried to add. And again, ask on IAR talk page, and they will tell you that it is not for content disputes. TTN (talk) 00:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

So they went and changed the definition of "all" did they? It does not matter what you say about it, the title of this policy is "Ignore All Rules", and where in the actual policy does it say "this does not aply to X", last time I checked it, all it said was that if the rules are more of a problem in a situation, to just ignore them. Also, this is not just a content debate, this is about merging dozens of articles into one gargantuan list. But of course, really, when you just get down to it, point to just one debate on Wikipedia that is not about some form of content. (Justyn (talk) 03:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC))

Ignoring Justyn's rant about IAR (though you may be right, Justyn, your focus is too narrow), current consensus favors number 4, not merging to a single list. Please don't ignore the opinions of the other editors to favor your preferred outcome. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

That rant was brought on by TTN's elitist "the plan is" attitude. And Mergism is just merging the pages together; what makes TTN's plan Deletionism is that he plans to get rid of all the information in the pages. And all I was saying is that the guidelines do not need to be followed with a blind all or nothing viewpoint; IAR exemplifies my point flat out. (Justyn (talk) 12:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC))

Seeing option four still leaves us with the same exact problem, minus like five articles, the part about local consensus not ruling from WP:CON applies here. There will either be one or two lists. That will be all that is necessary to understand the series. TTN (talk) 19:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Justyn, I understand that you're angry about this for whatever reason, but you need to understand that this is an encyclopedia that works off of combining information from reliable sources and some primary sources. The information within these articles is purely primary, with a few having a some trivial secondary bits. Please just use the One Piece wiki. TTN (talk) 19:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Second that sentiment. Why has this stuff not been merged? I don't see anyone here at WP:FICT making the case to change consensus, and since consensus is global not local, objections here are not relevant. Eusebeus (talk) 20:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:FICT is disputed, so that thread flies right out the window, and if you have no intention of listening to the opinions of others in this merger, there is no reason for anyone to listen to yours, either. Consensus is not static and is sure as hell isn't set at the moment, so instead of trying to bully your way into getting what you want, why not take the novel approach and actually work with other editors? — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I knew that tag was going to be annoying. The only things being discussed are the heavy bias toward AfDs, and some minor wording aspects of it. The core of it is based upon WP:N, so there is no potential for a complete change of pace for it. If we have to ignore FICT, N gives the same exact remedy as it. Editors have to be willing to actually work on this. If this were like the Naruto group, I would have no problem with a slow, but steady decline in articles. This isn't the Naruto group, though, as only one user would like to take that route. TTN (talk) 23:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Just because you're working with a different group doesn't mean you can't take the effort to compromise. It will not kill you or the encyclopedia to have 7-12 (something like that) lists instead of one, and in either case you will get your wish of merging the smaller characters. There's no reason to shove the genie back in the bottle all at once. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Why exactly should I be the one to work with people completely unwilling to do anything at all? Don't be fooled by the "Let's improve these!" comments. Out of the committed fans, only AE wants to actually bring them up to our standards, while others do not care or only want to "satisfy" the guideline to a certain extent. Again, if this group started actively working to make these better like the editors working on Naruto, it would be fine to say "Oh, I'll go away for now.", but that is not the case. In any case, they have the One Piece wiki, which contains everything here and more, so there is no real excuse not to go the encyclopedic route (provide enough information to supplement the main article). TTN (talk) 23:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

To add to that... Not only do I want them improved... I actually want to see signs of editors working to do just that. Obivously the former isn't going to happen unless the latter occurs. So at this point, as said before, I don't ness. want what TTN is preposing, but I'm n ot about to object to it either. If TTN was to retract his preposal here, would you try and improve within the guidelines anyone or let them continue to fall further and further into the vagueness of barely being suitable for wikipedia? Would anyone be willing to take on the responiblitiy of setting up the OP project that gets us organised (heck I did the research, I just didn't have the support)? Or would everyone go back into their corner of wikipedia once again until the NEXT big event where nothing ends up happening? The first two would ensure this never happens, the third wouldn't make me suprised at this stage.

Bottom line folks, your defending these articles against any form of change for the most part, but in the end... Even the slightest excuse for deletetion is enough on wikipedia to loose an article, trust me, I've seen it a dozen times... I don't think half of you fully understand the rules nor the position the articles in so I suggest most of you take the time to read whats already been said and pointed out... There is a greater wikipedia community out there who don't care about One Piece nor anime for that matter who wouldn't think twice about deleting our articles (half do it for the sake of it).

For the most part, if you guys hate TTN for what he is doing, look around wikipedia more... Their greater evils out there then what TTN does and at least he is doing something that will have (hopefully) a productive output. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 00:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm only saying that, aside from Justyn and a few others, most of the reasonable ones here are going for a less excessive merge. The one page merge is far too excessive, at least all at once. Merge down into the crew pages first and work your way from there. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:58, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as the one or two lists are inevitable without some sort of active push, I would rather skip the three or four repeats of this discussion. If we get down to the crew lists, the next steps will be main a main Navy article, a main pirate crew article, ect. After that, it will likely be another step. Repeat that once or twice more, and we'll be at the level I'm going for. Seeing as that would not really help anything, there really is no point in it. As I have been saying, if the editors were to adopt AE's plan up there, I would be fine with that route. The most likely case is that they do not want to do that, and they will fight this every step of the way, so the best thing to do is to just skip that completely. TTN (talk) 01:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that train of thought is that you think it has to happen when it does not. You decided well before ever proposing this merge how you wanted it to end, and now you're pushing relentlessly to achieve that. I say again: compromise. Try one to three lists pirates, one list navy, and one list for the remainder or something like that. You do not have to smash it down into the absolutely smallest thing possible. You just want to. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

If you can convince these editors that this is a good thing, and make sure that they know that those lists will be merged sometime afterwards, I don't mind. But I am not going through this for a third time. In case you didn't know, some characters were also merged into the lists a while back to get on the right path. TTN (talk) 01:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

You'll find it'll be a much easier task when you're not proposing something so drastic. I see three lists working much better than just one. Proposal #6 actually seems to cover that, so I'll go with 6. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it. The only limited plan these guys seem to want to go for is merging a couple of characters. We'll see what we need when I can get around to editing without being reverted. TTN (talk) 12:59, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, like I said last time I posted. TTN is just unwilling to compromise. He doesn't care about anything that anyone says. He simply wants to delete all of this information for his own pleasure. I really see no point in destroying all of the editor's hard work. Sure, some articles need editing, and some characters can be scaled down, but it is good. Compromises should be made, ones where articles can only be improved and not deleted. And TTN, I think you should simply shut up already and let this disscusion die. It's obvious that you are the only one who keeps insisitng on deleting everything in one big merger. He provides very vague reasons as to delete them, most of which have been countered. Let the editors fix them (I know I'll help as best as I can) since it is good. The articles do have sources (just not as easy to find) and stop using Wiki as an excuse. Just because it exists doesn't mean that we shouldn't have some information here as well. Fix up the articles a little, that's what I recommend. And TTN, either learn to play nice with others or shut up already. Pikachu150 (T | C) 6:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

That whole rant is part of the reason he's become so unwilling. If you want to get somewhere, meet in the middle. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

He hasn't been reasonable the entire time. Look back to when he first proposed the merger. He wouldn't lsiten to anyone and only used certain rules to prove his point. And I'm sorry, but I can't take him anymore. I've been reading this disscussion, and it just leads into dead ends. Whenever a compromise can be reached, he ruins it by saying that we should just have a big merger and that opens the whole wound again. Just let this go already, please. Pikachu150 (T | C) 6:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. TTN you ain't goin anywhere with this ... So, as i was saying ... There are many ppl (including me) who are obviously willing to contribute to One Piece characters articles ... So let's just get to it SSJ 5 (talk) 08:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

You're willing to contribute by editing as if you were on the One Piece wiki. You value the information currently present in the articles, which is only a good philosophy over at the One Piece wiki. If you're willing to edit them encyclopedically, please explain what kind of information that you plan on adding and removing. I would just suggest that you use that wiki for in-depth Once Piece information, and use this site for encyclopedic information. TTN (talk) 12:59, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to contribute by editing in any way possible. Removing the unnecessary references and different character add-on parts of the pages. Keeping the info about who they are and what are their abilities SSJ 5 (talk) 22:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Personnelly I don't get what half the fuss is about here. TTN isn't suggesting anything that won't make the OP wikipedia pages any different to others. LOTS of programs only have a single, or at the most 3, lists of characters with summeries. Some are from things larger then OP. The trick is to just drop all the fanish comments on the pages... Personnelity. Storyline. Trivia. Keep the basics. You'll get a page that doesn't give a lot of info, but is easier to manage, organise and check. Seriously, TTN has made many valid points time and time again. A single page of information that doesn't have a lot but has everything sourced is far more useful on wikipedia then a huge page without sources.

This is going around in a circle, so this is the LAST time I give this example: Brainiac 5, I recently used this page to check out something and found there was not a single reference to aid me. It took me 3 hours of reading (I was actually looking for the issue with V.4 of the characters history in it) to find the source for the information I wanted. Our pages aren't much better... None of our refs have ISBN nos and 95% of the information is unsourced. Inccidently, when I get time I'm going to correct that page myself and add the missing refs. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 16:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Has a draft of what the page will look like if all the chrcters are merged been made?! Is merging some chrcters to seperete and certain lists the issue, or is it merging all to one the issue. Are real life replicas of the strawhat's boats and chopperman merchandise real world information. Is thre any othr excuse than the wikia avaliable. Will ths page be tagged for deletion for lacking real world info or exceding page limit. Will it cause editing prblems to those who want to edit it. Will the proposer contribute to the page's structure if merged or will he leave it as is without doing anything else. Why is smoker a villain. Will people change Zoro to Zolo because they no longer find debate on it. Why no one asks this questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.6.174.251 (talk) 17:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

This is deletionist nonsense. Compare some of the minor villains that we never see again like the priests, to Enel. Enel unlike the others, has his own backstory, reappears, is free-standing, and is a major character. I vote that first make a list of One Piece villains, which yes Enel/Eneru is a part of. Second, list of specific villain crews such as the Foxy pirates or even the Navy leaders. Third, characters which are notable enough to warrant their own explanation get their own article. Okay, here's an instance where a merge is done- this one article talked about Japanese succession, and they mentioned cloister rule (exact same information). Here's another- Ashido from Bleach I wrote an article, it was merged into list of Bleach shinigami. And rightly so, you know why? Because he appeared for a lousy 3-4 episodes. Take a look at Enel, and Foxy after him. Both used up several episodes (Foxy because he recurred), Enel taking about 30+ if I remember correctly. Further, this tells almost everything about Enel. Have you ever looked at one of those list of characters pages? You'd be lucky to hear that "Enel uses lightning" and not much else. As a rule of thumb, I'd say any anime villain in a leadership position, which isn't a puppet ruler is probably notable enough to warrant their own page. Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 02:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)Ingo yeah agrees!

Okay, I just got a look at the poor excuse for an article that it was suggested to be merged into. It's just a list of links. I don't care how long the Enel is, it's at least a full article, and from what I've seen does not need (much) cleanup. When there is alot of the same info on the characters list, then maybe merging into makes sense. But this list has NO information. Not just that, most of the One Piece stuff has, at the bottom of the page, a list of One Piece characters, crews, villains, etc, etc, etc. If you want something to do, why not consider either improving that pag of deleting it entirely. In fact, as something to discuss, I'll consider giving a long deadline to that article to cleanup. Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 02:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

But then also Sir Crocodile should have his own article ... I mean he is the longest running villain. SSJ 5 (talk) 19:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Do NOT merge Luffy into this! Luffy has a HUGE page & it wouldn't fit. I think I have made my point. Ingo yeah (Sorry if I didn't get the format correct, I'm kind of new here. Tee hee!)Hades, God Of The Underclass 21:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Seriously... We can make the info only 3 paragraphs for each character... Its not that difficult... Just cut the fancrap out. Let the wikia handle the rest. -_-' Angel Emfrbl (talk) 21:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

WHY? Why does the information need to be limited just because the One Piece encyclopedia exists?

Colleen Clinkenbeard. That's all I need to say. Anyone who decides to go randomly deleting articles because they "don't fit format" think about the broken link impact when Monkey D Luffy no longer registers. Instead of whining about not fitting format, you can (A)ask WikiPedia to change the rule, or (B) create pages for EACH character (even the minor ones) and make them all fit format. Oh yes, and the reason people are being "unreasonable" and not wanting to switch to 3 paragraphs, is because you really can't tell much about a character in 3 paragraphs when they have been around for 100+ episodes. Heck, Beet for Beet the Vandel Buster takes roughly 5 paragraphs, and he's only around for 77 episodes. You can tell 3 paragraphs of trivial facts, or you can make it a personal page which actually tells the details. If you did that with each character on the page, it would be 60 pages long and SLOOOOW loading. Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 05:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Because this is wikipedia, an encyclopedia. There doesn't have to be heaps of input on a page here, thats why Wikias exist in the first place. If the change effects pages, fine, I will be the one to go around and fix the problem. It doesn't have to be trivia at all, the facts. In fact the input on the Straw Hat Pirates page pretty much sums up ALL anyone needs to know on the characters. If you want more info, read the manga, watch the series, thats what their there for. If you don't want to do either, read the wikia because thats whats thats there for. You are making it seem like a big deal having just 3-5 paragraphs of input.

Cut the personnelity out, cut the trivia out, cut any uneeded plot points out which shouldn't even be on the page (you can make the history only one paragraph long at the most, even Robin's can be made to fit that). Make the abilities section limited. Seriously, if other series bigger then ours (both anime and non-anime) can manage it, then why can't we? What makes OP so special it has to be different? The answer; nothing. When the OP pages resemble Superman page, I'll take back what I've said here. But they don't, so as far as I'm concerned, your whole response there is pretty weak. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angel Emfrbl (talk • contribs) 11:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This is wikipedia... Not the OP Wikia. On the wikia, this kind of thing wouldn't be an issue, on wikipedia, it is. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 11:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Now, it is obvious that this arguement has pretty much boiled down to: these articles are not sourced and referenced correctly. If that is not a case for WP:BURO to come in and say "stfu", we might as well just get rid of that policy entirely. {Justyn (talk) 07:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC))

Justyn, its more then that, stop pretending its not. You've completely ignored most of whats been said, paying attention to only one thing CONSTANTLY throughout this discussion. If it was just that reason alone, would I support TTN, whose methods I don't alway agree on? Angel Emfrbl (talk) 08:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the status quo should stay as is; these pages need to be fixed up, desperately. But that should not be done by obliterating all the information because it is sourced improperly occourding to guidelines A and B, and Policy C. As I stated: Wikipedia is not a burocracy. We do not need to stamp each and every letter five times with the official stamp. I have had bad direct and indirect dealings with Deletionists that have left me cynical on the matter: I won't go into heavy detail on the matter, but let me say that I can understand why many people in the Webcomics community are up in arms about Wikipedia right now.

Now, I think that unless we want to have an accurate metaphore for this cleanup to be "like herding cats", I think that a One Piece workgroup should be made (should have stated tthis one a little earlier). Unless you like herding cats, that is; if you want to go around herding cats, be my guest.

I am a little stressed out on this whole matter, top that out with a whole load of real life shit, and I would assume that I'm constantly sitting at just below boiling. (Justyn (talk) 09:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC))

Character List Merge

Why has all this stuff not been merged yet per our guidelines? I propose carrying these to AfD since a merge has not been worked out here. Eusebeus (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I have left a note on some of the central contributers talkpages, asking for a compromise. I still hope that this can be worked out here.—Cronholm¹⁴⁴ 20:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)