Talk:List of doping cases in sport

Rename

This might work better as "Athletes who have been punished as a result of drug infractions". Less POV that way.

Lyellin 10:01, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

I am certainly willing. Let it stay like this for a day or two and then I will act on the consensus of the comments. [[PaulinSaudi 10:13, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)]]

Not sure whether a new page is needed for this, but it should at least be made clear of the athletes that have since been cleared of all charges (e.g. Greg Rusedski). CheekyMonkey 10:35, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am impressed, awed, fascinated, by how quickly this page has grown. I began it because I could not find anything like it on the net. Did I miss it somewhere? [[PaulinSaudi 16:47, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)]]

http://cyclisme.dopage.free.fr/ had a long list of pro road cyclists that tested positive for banned substances, but I cannot find it on their site anymore (perhaps because I cannot navigate French sites well?) Peoplesunionpro 21:25, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Props to you for starting it. It's a really fun page. As for the name, I would prefer a shorter name (as they are easier to find/use). Eric B. and Rakim 23:18, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I can't think of a shorter/easier name than this. I think this name is less POV than "Athletes who have been punished as a result of drug infractions". That name implies that the person has willingly and knowingly taken banned substances, which is not always a certainty. "List of athletes found guilty of using banned drugs" refers to the fact that they have been found guilty, not to their being guilty. That is an important distinction to make. Aecis 12:34, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I like Drug Cheats. [[PaulinSaudi 16:22, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)]]

I added Bonds and Giambi. I realize they were not 'found guilty,' but still. [[PaulinSaudi 11:40, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)]]

But still what? You can't name something like this and then have the list be inaccurate. Ken Camanitti was never found guilty either. Fix the name or get rid of it.

Bonds and Giambi

I think they belong here at this point. I wish you (User:129.125.145.96 (Bonds and Giambi edited)) )would make a comment when you revert. [[PaulinSaudi 13:15, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)]]

Include those not found guilty according to their sport governing body?

Yes or no? I thought Bonds wasn't found guilty (but I'm not sure). If we include all athletes that most likely have doped but either were not officially announced or only bended the rules, this list could be much bigger, but it goes against the title :) Peoplesunionpro 21:28, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Bernard Williams

Can anyone confirm that Bernard Williams used banned drugs? Punkmorten 11:54, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

It's impossible to tell what he used and what he hasn't used. Williams has tested positive for a metabolite of cannabis in June 2004 and has received a public warning for it from the US Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) [1]. Aecis ^{Mr. Mojo risin'} 23:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Perhaps you could add this information to his article? Punkmorten 16:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Page name

I see the discussion above about the page name. I also think it should be moved, because of the use of the word "guilty". In most sports there is a strict liability rule about drug abuse, so any amount of performance-enhancing drugs results in a ban from competitions even if there is an innocent explanation for how it came to be there. The term "guilty" implies malign intent. I suggest a move to List of athletes who tested positive for banned drugs. David | Talk 00:28, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The proposed name might be better than the current name, but I disagree with you on your interpretation of the word "guilty". I believe you have to view guilty in conjunction with the word in front of it, "found". This is not a list of people who were guilty of doing something, but of people who were found or held guilty by a professional organization, whether it's an official anti-doping agency or any organization regulating a particular sport. A small note: I would prefer a move to List of athletes who tested positive for banned substances, since not all banned substances are technically drugs. Aecis ^{Mr. Mojo risin'} 23:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I think guilty is totally inappropriate for the name of the article, since few (none?) of these people were "found guilty" of anything. Being found guilty requires breaking a law and having your day in court, and most people who are punished by a professional sports league are never charged with anything. I think we should come up with a consensus for a new name and change it as soon as possible. I'd be for Aecis's suggestion, List of athletes who tested positive for banned substances, although I'd be against anyone being included in that list just because the media made suggestions. Actual suspension by a professional league would be enough in my mind. —Cleared as filed. 21:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I too am queasy about the word "guilty." The name ought to be changed. I prefer "Drug cheats." Paul, in Saudi 02:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I have boldly moved this article to List of athletes who tested positive for banned substances. The old article title was bordering on, if not blantantly, libel, since most of these guys haven't been "found guilty" of anything. —Cleared as filed. 15:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Either the page should be moved again, or the last sentence ", or have admitted to their use." should be omitted.--Bagande 16:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

How exactly is listing under this title any less libelous when it contains names who have NEVER had a positive drugs test! (such as rio ferdinand or christine ohuruogu) and have been banned for missing tests or other related ofences. I've moved the page to List of sportspeople sanctioned for doping offences. --Jw2034 15:25, 28 July 2007 (BST)

The title should refer to 'drugs' rather than 'doping,' because it includes things like cocaine, marijuana, and meth that are pretty different than performance-enhancing drugs and aren't really implied by the word 'doping.' 69.7.37.69 (talk) 22:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Reformatting

I am currently in the process of reformatting the page. I didn't list it here prior to the reformatting because it is only a layout edit. I am not editing the content in any way, shape or form. With the new layout, I believe the list will look clearer and more professional. I have added two topics to the list: the banned substance that was found, and an external reference. I believe that mentioning the banned substance adds to the encyclopedic content of the page, while the external reference is meant to provide proof that the athlete in question did test positive for a banned substance. Aecis ^{Mr. Mojo risin'} 23:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Natallia Solohub - reference required

According to the Natallia Solohub article (name sometimes spelt Natallia Sologub) "She was banned from the sport between August 2001 and August 2003". However, the article lacks a ref, and I can't Google one. Can anyone point us to the official IAAF decision (usually a pdf file)? --Mais oui! 13:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

• The article already has a source, namely her IAAF profile which indeed says she was banned in that period. Punkmorten 14:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh! I had looked at that, but missed that bit! Thanks. --Mais oui! 18:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

77 kilobytes, and counting...

This article is already very long, and it is just going to get longer. Would it be wise to consider splitting it, perhaps by sport? We already have separate lists for baseball. Perhaps if we spun off athletics (track and field) - which has the most - then we could keep this list manageable. Thoughts? -- Mais oui! 15:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems sensible. It only shows that the athletics coverage is starting to reach an adequate level :) In the new list we could add their event (e.g. 100 m, discus etc). Punkmorten 15:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. The first that come to mind would be List of cyclists who tested positive for banned substances and List of athletes who tested positive for banned substances. Aecis^Brievenbus 09:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Vincent Guérin

I have already mentioned this on the French sportspeople in doping cases talk page and it is a bit similar to the Bonds and Giambi case.

Guérin was suspended initially by the FFF but this punishment was overturned and the doping test declared void by the French legal Courts on the grounds that the tests were carried out incorrectly. See here.

Should he, and by extension Bonds and Giambi, still be included? At the very least I would think there should be a footnote to explain the dubiety of the initial test. Caledonian Place 13:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a new list of sportspeople who were cleared of doping charges? If they are not present in any list, people are going to wonder where their entries went. I remember a few more at the moment who could go in such a list. Punkmorten 18:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Two additional columns?

I suggest adding two columns to this list: the year in which the positive test occurred, and the suspension/penalty/warning that ensued. Any thoughts? Aecis^Brievenbus 09:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Those sound like good additions to me. That would make seven columns, so we're probably getting a little wide. Adding them might cause issues with screens that aren't all that wide--possibly merge the reference column into the name column (the "reference" title takes up so much more space than the "[1]" link which could be put right next to the athletes' names)? -- Jonel | Speak 16:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"reference" can be shortened to "ref", with a piped link to WP:CITE or something. Two new columns could work if we are able to fill them based on sources. Punkmorten 16:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Current name is poor

The list scope is sportspeople "who tested positive for banned substances, or have been found to have taken illegal performance-enhancing drugs by a court of law, or have been suspended by a sporting body for failure to submit to mandatory drug testing, or have admitted to their use". Self-admitted doping use should therefore be included in the list (re: [2]), until the list scope is changed by consensus here on the talk page. BUT if anything the name should be changed. Why not "List of doping cases in sport", in compliance with the category of the same name? Punkmorten 18:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, a positive test is NOT the same as being banned for missing mandatory tests (such as rio ferdinand or christine ohuruogu), where no evidence of drugs taking exists - in fact, it might be potentially libelous to even list them under this title! -Jw2034 15:16, 28 July 2007 (BST)

For this reason i've changed the name, all the names on the list will still be valid under the new title - except horses, which needs a new page given this is for sportspeople :). -Jw2034 15:16, 28 July 2007 (BST)

On first sight it seems like an ok solution. Punkmorten 15:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I still like "Drug Cheats' Paul, in Saudi 09:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

List of sportspeople cleared of doping charges

The List of sportspeople cleared of doping charges now exists. Punkmorten 11:08, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Vick

Shouldn't Michael Vick be in there for the Marijuana case? --HPJoker (talk) 16:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Josep Guardiola

Josep Guardiola was cleared so I've erased from the list. References:

• Former Barcelona midfielder Josep Guardiola cleared of doping charges on appeal
• Josep Guardiola is cleared of doping charges in a Brescia court
• Absolen Guardiola de l'acusació de dopatge c.
• Pep Guardiola absolt de les acusacions de dopatge c.
  --83.58.120.3 (talk) 19:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, there's a List of sportspeople cleared of doping charges for that. Punkmorten (talk) 21:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

References

• I have added two templates:
  *1) "This section uses citations that are either broken or outdated", because there are a lot of dead external links, or not in full compliance with Wikipedia's official policies and external links guidelines, ref:Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. An example: "Sara Abbazova" (the external link is dead).
  *2) "This biographical article needs additional citations for verification"., because some of the links are not mentioning the concrete banned substance. An example: Brahim Boulami and his use of EPO. For the time being I am working at the Norwegian edition of "List of doping cases in sport", but in the future I am willing to spend more time with this edition.

Orjanlothe (talk) 21:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• 14:44, 3 February 2008 Punkmorten wrote: (From "Revision history of List of doping cases in sport":) "Please tell us explicitly which links don't work, don't waste our time on this Orjanlothe and
• 17:49, 5 February 2008 Punkmorten wrote "(fixed the ones who needed fixing - are there more lying around? Bring them to attention and we'll fix them immediately!)".

• 6 February 2008, I (Orjanlothe) spended hours finding reliable references/sources which I sended to Punkmorten (a list with more than 170 references!!. (Claiming that a person has been found guilty using a banned substance, and the citation links to a broken source is not in compliance with Wikipedia's official policies and external links guidelines, ref:Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons)). Nothing much has been done since then. I find this unexceptable. At least he is an administrator.

Orjanlothe (talk) 15:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I personally haven't had the time to look into it? Punkmorten (talk) 11:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

• 2. april: I reverted edits by Rividian to last version by: 193.69.92.189. (Rividian removed: «This section uses citations that are either broken or outdated»). Rividian, if you want me to send you the list (that I e-mailed Punkmorten 6. february 2008), I will gladly do that.

Orjanlothe (talk) 08:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not just fix or remove the broken link items? Why must you spend all this time on the talk page while you hold the article hostage with an ugly tag? No one is going to go through all 900 items and fix them just because they saw this tag on the page... the tag does nothing to improve the article. Don't you realize you can EDIT articles and FIX problems you see? The goal isn't the manipulate other people into doing the work... you should just do it yourself if you're so worried about it. --Rividian (talk) 13:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Length

This list is becoming massive - there are a couple of options. 1) Split the article by sport (e.g. List of doping cases in athletics, List of doping cases in soccer, etc) 2) Split the article by continents (e.g. List of doping cases in South American sport, List of doping cases in European sport) 3) Split the article alphabetically (e.g. List of doping cases in sport A-F, List of doping cases in sport G-M). 4) Remove all those entires where the person has no article. I'm in favour of 4 (remove all the redlinks and add them back in as and when they have articles), but what does everyone else think? Neıl ☎ 17:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Removing redlinks is a horrible solution. Wikipedia has an infinite amount of space, is a work in progress, and it has already been taken care that only sportspeople that otherwise deserve articles are listed here. Of course, there are loads of known doping cases which are not listed here, but they are omitted as being not notable. Punkmorten (talk) 19:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay - then which of the other suggestions makes most sense? Neıl ☎ 11:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

If we must split the list - and I'm not convinced we need to - but if we must, then it should be by sport (Athletics, Cycling, Swimming, etc) as it is quite common that the same reference will cover multiple athletes in the same discipline. Since updating references (dead links) seem to be a problem, we should split the list in a way that helps editors keep references up to date. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 01:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

perhaps keep the current list, but create other articles as you suggest e.g. doping in athletics/soccer/etc, which can then be linked at the top of the article we have now. i'd be willing to help with this if need be! Pullshapes (talk) 17:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)