Talk:Out of India theory

mainstream scholars

Sbhushan and Priyanath,

Proponents of the Paleolithic Continuity Theory (who are academics in relevant fields) reject the idea that the dissemination of Indo-European languages is the result of migrations by Indo-European speaking peoples.

However, they argue that there is no evidence for the migration of Indo-European speakers into Europe.

Proponents of Paleolithic Continuity cite the following:

Lack of archaelogical evidence

the archaeological research of the last few decennia has provided more and more evidence that no large-scale invasion took place in Europe in the Calcholithic

Lack of genetic evidence

80% of the genetic stock of Europeans goes back to Paleolithic

The antiquity of Indo-European place names in Europe

The deepest and most frequent ethnic and linguistic layer, which the study of place names permits us to detect in Catalonia as well as in the Ebro Valley and in Andalusia, is formed by some very ancient Indo-European populations, which created the first network of river and place names, sufficiently dense as to resist successive language changes and to this date

it would be Germanic peoples who would have settled the Scandinavian peninsula after deglaciation, invented techniques -such as tar production- that have exclusively Germanic names, and given exclusively Germanic place names to their newly settled territory (a fact that cannot be reconciled with the invasionist model).

Racism

If one, then, remembers that IE linguistics began after the end of 'catastrophism' and in the context of the Darwinian revolution, when science was faced with the discovery of evolution, and with the fact that 'even' Europe had been inhabited by 'antedeluvian' or 'savage' ancestors, it becomes clear why the believers in the myth of the superior and perfect Arian race would inevitably refuse direct continuity of modern Europeans from the newly-discovered European 'savages'. The Arians became then the mysterious invaders, originating from an unknown and unreachable place, with an unknown and unknowable prehistory, who descended upon Europe as the future world saviours.

These passages are excerpts from the work of Mario Alinei, who was professor of linguistics at the University of Utrecht from 1959 to 1987.

Alinei, Mario (1998), "Towards an Invasionless Model of Indoeuropean Origins: The Continuity Theory", in Pearce, Mark; Tosi, Maurizio (eds.), Papers from the European Association of Archaeologists Third Annual Meeting at Ravenna 1997, vol. I: Pre- and Protohistory, Oxford: British Archaeological Reports.

The passage about Iberia is Alinei excerpting and translating Francisco Villar Liébana, professor of Indo-European linguistics at the University of Salamanca.

And, though he clearly disagrees with it, Alinei acknowledges that the mainstream point of view is the Kurgan hypothesis, whose original proponent Marija Gimbutas and current champion J.P. Mallory were both trained as archaeologists, rather than in the field of linguistics you object so strongly to.

Whatever its flaws, at least the "Indo-Aryan migration" article acknowledges archaeologists' and geneticists' objections.

Archaeologists and geneticists can't find any evidence for "Out of India" either, but this isn't reflected in the article. This needs to be fixed.

It is both misleading and intellectually dishonest to say that archaeology and genetics cast doubt on "Indo-Aryan migration" without acknowledging that they cast as much doubt on "Out of India," if not more, considering that scholarship supporting PCT has been published in peer-reviewed journals.

And to argue, as Talageri does, that the evidence supports "Out of India" demonstrates either his ignorance, his laziness, or his agenda of chauvinist propaganda. JFD 09:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

JFD, I've never argued for Out of India. There is not enough evidence to conclusively support either Out of India or IAM, just as you point out. I agree with you that it's intellectually dishonest to say that archaeology and genetics cast doubt on only one and not the other - but that cuts both ways, and exposes intellectual dishonesty by many editors. The IAM article should much more clearly state this—it doesn't. The lack of archaeolgy and genetic evidence should be in the second sentence, rather than buried in a long lead paragraph. 'Lack of evidence' is utterly buried in the respective sections (archaeology and genetics), which waffle back and forth. It's a very effective technique, but then there are some skilled editors protecting that article. ॐ Priyanath talk 13:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The "Indo-Aryan migration" article at least acknowledges the doubts raised by archaeology and genetics, even if you believe it should be given greater weight.

The "Out of India" article does not. At all. JFD 16:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

At all? From Out of India, third sentence: "This theory is deprecated by academic scholars." And the first sentence of the language subsection: "A concern raised by mainstream linguistic scholars is that the Indic PIE languages show extensive influence from contact with Dravidian languages, a claim best developed by Emeneau (1956, 1969,1974)." There's lots more in the article, including extensive cites from Witzel. In fact, there are more cites in Out of India disputing the idea, than in AIM disputing that idea. Both articles could use clearer writing showing that they are hypotheses. ॐ Priyanath talk 16:49, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The "Out of India" article does not explicitly acknowledge the doubts raised by archaeology and genetics.

In fact, it implies that the only objections to "Out of India" are linguistic. JFD 16:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I've never edited Out of India (except for one typo in a footnote), and won't be doing serious editing for some time still. I think both articles should be treated equally, but I don't see the IAM folks willing to compromise - so I guess in that regard there is some equality. Cheers, ॐ Priyanath talk 17:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The fact remains that "Indo-Aryan migration" explicitly acknowledges the questions raised by archaeology and genetics whereas "Out of India" does not.

JFD 17:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

First point, this sub-section is about the point that IAM and related theories are only linguistic theories and should be presented as such. Based on above discussion, it appears that you agree with this statement. So it should be clearly mentioned that these are linguistic theories and it is "mainstream linguistic scholars". Please confirm that in your own words.

Second point, nowhere in OIT article it makes any claim that archeologist or any mainstream scholars support OIT. If you can find any peer reviewed publication that says archeologists don’t support OIT, please go ahead and add that with proper citations. I have not found any publication yet. Criticism has to follow same WP rules; it has to be from published acceptable sources. Your personal views are irrelevant. The problem is that most of the archeological studies have focused on tracing Indo-Aryans from Central Asia to India during a particular time period. OIT would be about 2000 years earlier in opposite direction, so no work done yet. Archeologists don’t care much for the linguistic constructs and are not as interested in solving this PIE homeland puzzle. My personal view is that this whole PIE homeland quest is a waste of time.

Third point, Gimbutas was an archeologist and her Kurgan hypothesis is supported by Linguistic Paleontology (I don’t recall the name of linguistic scholar). Linguistic Paleontology has lost its luster and Kurgan hypothesis is not in favor so much anymore. Mallory (1989) is quoted frequently to show Kurgan is favorite; that is already dated. But this does not account for all the criticism heaped on Kurgan after that point. A significant number of mainstream linguistic scholars have rejected Kurgan based on linguistic evidence. Bryant 2001 has some section about that.

Fourth point, each fundamental argument raised by linguistic scholars to support AMT, has been countered by mainstream linguistic scholars themselves. Such shaky theories should not have been used to re-write history. Talageri’s book and Kazanas article in JIES are acceptable as per WP:RS and Out of India theory is acceptable by WP:Fringe. So I am not sure what is the point of your argument. Are you saying that Out of India Theory should not be on WP at all?Sbhushan 18:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

nowhere in OIT article it makes any claim that archeologist or any mainstream scholars support OIT.

The examination of 300 skeletons from the Indus Valley Civilization and comparison of those skeletons with modern-day Indians by Kenneth Kennedy has also been a supporting argument for the OIT.

As illustrated by this excerpt, the OIT article implies—misleadingly—the support of mainstream scholars even if it does not claim it explicitly.

The problem is that most of the archeological studies have focused on tracing Indo-Aryans from Central Asia to India during a particular time period. OIT would be about 2000 years earlier in opposite direction, so no work done yet.

There's been plenty of archaelogical work done all over Europe and Asia and no mainstream archaeologist argues that the IE homeland is India.

Archeologists don’t care much for the linguistic constructs and are not as interested in solving this PIE homeland puzzle.

Both the Kurgan and Anatolian hypotheses were originally proposed and subsequently championed by archaeologists.

Sbhushan, if you're just going to make stuff up that contradicts the known facts, please don't bother. It just wastes both our time.

A significant number of mainstream linguistic scholars have rejected Kurgan based on linguistic evidence. Bryant 2001 has some section about that.

Bryant 2001 fails to address the Anatolian hypothesis or other models of IE origins, such as PCT.

Many of the objections to IAM found in Bryant 2001 depend on the 2nd millennium BCE dating of IAM in the Kurgan model.

In other words, the argument "not Kurgan, therefore OIT" is not a valid one.

Are you saying that Out of India Theory should not be on WP at all?

What I'm saying is that the OIT article shouldn't misrepresent sources.

It shouldn't, for example, imply that Kennedy supports OIT when he doesn't.

Nor should it cite archaeological and genetic evidence against IAM without acknowledging that the same evidence counters OIT.

JFD 05:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

You are misquoting/misrepresenting author’s positions. You also agreed to quote appropriate scholar in the field and now you are quoting a discredited linguist for archeological evidence. Do you have any idea why mainstream linguist reject Alinei arguments? His theory is in fringe of fringe theories and you are quoting him as authority. You have removed properly referenced verifiable content. On top of that, you take my comments out of context and accuse me. As I said to you during arbitration, it didn't seem that you were acting in good faith or making any effort to resolve conflict and you latest actions prove that. It is going to be hard to assume good faith after all this. I am quite busy for about 10 days, after that we will go through your edits line by line and fix them. So go ahead and have your fun, we will sort this out in few days.Sbhushan 23:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Gandhara as homeland

This dispute is about an original research in Memories of an Urheimat section. The statement is:

Many memories, and indeed historiographical records, of Iron Age migrations are preserved, and the Rigveda is no exception, presenting evidence, primarily based on hydronomy, of a gradual expansion from Gandhara, identified as the Proto-Rigvedic homeland (Asko Parpola (1999)[69] locates Proto-Rigvedic and Proto-Dardic in the Swat culture) to the Gangetic plain.

18:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• This statement should be removed for these reasons:

1. It is not verifiable. As per Jimmy Wales. "WikiEN-l insist on sources", it is better to have no information, than to have information like this, with no sources. Parpola has not identified Gandhara/SWAT as homeland in the reference provided.
2. This is original research- an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source.
3. This analysis, even if acceptable, doesn’t address the OIT argument. OIT argument is that RigVedic Aryans preserve no memories of migration or identify any Urheimat outside of area know to them. Gandhara is an area mentioned in Rigveda. Migration from Gandhara is not a migration from Central Asia.
4. This argument was presented in JIES, where it was subject to “nine highly critical reviews by referees” as per Dab. He should use that review instead of creating his own arguments.
5. Dab has changed reference for this statement about 4 times. Previous discussion here and here. Rudra confirmed earlier that Parpola has not explicitily made this claim in the article. [[1]]
6. RigVeda is pre-iron age.Sbhushan 18:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Comments

• §9. Remembrance of immigration in Witzel, Michael (May 2001), "Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts" (PDF), Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, 7 (3): 1–115 discusses precisely this; opening

It has frequently been denied that the RV contains any memory or information about the former homeland(s) of the Indo-Aryans. [...] However, in the RV there are quite a few vague reminiscences of former habitats, that is, of the Bactria-Margiana area, situated to the north of Iran and Afghanistan, and even from further afield. Such a connection can be detected in the retention by the Iranians of IIr./IA river names and in the many references in the RV to mountains and mountain passes.

(page 15 in preprint(?) linked to, citations removed)

Michael Witzel, "Linguistic Evidence for Cultural Exchange in Prehistoric Western Central Asia," Sino-Platonic Papers, 129 (December, 2003) talks about proto(?)-Rigvedic speakers in Swat

The speakers of the linguistically slightly later, though still pre-Iron Age �gvedic then moved into Arachosia (*Sarasvatī > Avest. Hara aitī), Swat (Suvåstu) and Panjab (Sapta Sindhu), before c.1200/1000 BCE -- depending on the local date of the introduction of iron (Possehl and Gullapalli 1999),

([2] Page 11). Doldrums 13:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection to quoting Witzel's exact words and referencing it to Witzel instead of Parpola. A point to note is that in the first quote Witzel makes a general statement that there are quite a few vague reminiscences of former habitats, but fails to provide any specific section of RV.Sbhushan 12:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

the quoted statement is the opening of a section, titled Remembrance of immigration, which has all the gory details. Doldrums 12:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I read the gory details. He mentions river names and mountain passes. But he doesn't say that RV records that river names were named due to old memories. If names are common to Iran and India, it could be that names were transfered from West to East and it could also be other way around. Witzel is very vague on details. Only textual example of migration he provides is:

BSS 18.44: 397.9 sqq. It plays on the etymologies of ay/i 'to go' and amAvas 'to stay at home', and actually seems to speak, once we apply BrAhmaÍa style logic and(etymological) argumentation style, of a migration from the Afghani borderland of Gandhra and Parãu (mod. Pashto) to Haryana/Uttar Pradesh and Bihar:

This particular section has been proven to be incorrect translation.Sbhushan 13:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Inaccurate citation

Template:Quotation1The year, volume, and page numbers given are for a different article, that is, not "Indigenous Indoaryans and the Rgveda". What is the correct source for the text attributed? JFD 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Watch844

Watch844, you are deleting chunks of well referenced material without discussion and with vague references to "Indian Y chromosome haplogroups". If you are referring to Oppenheimer's research, this has been discussed many times. Perhaps you can explain what evidence you are referring to, but any "Indian" haplogroup that has its highest concentration in Georgia is very very unlikely to mark IE expansion for the obvious reason that the Caucasian languages are not IE and are not believed to have been intrusive on previous IE speakers. Therefore this evidence would suggest that the source of this genetic signature long predates IE expansion, and that its prevelance in Georgia would indicate a relic population largely unaffected by later migrations. Paul B 17:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

OIT is proposed by some scholars

The first part of the page was patently false. The theory has not 'been rejected' by scholars. In fact the reference to this was a quote of almost 20 years ago by Mallory, which was false even then. It is well known that there are currently a few extremely credible scholars who are a lot more knowledgeable that you or I on the issue who advocate OIT. Therefore the first paragraph needs to remain how I have left it to reflect this current viewpoint.

Remember that genetic work is always developing and when there is any ambiguity (such as with dating) it can be read in a variety of ways. Usually this can refelct to fit any preconcieved notion that the person conducting the trails had. Oppenheimers work is important. His work shows that European population groups (and Middle Eastern) originate in an early expansion from India. This is widely accepted. The marker I am talking about is R2 haplogroup which seems to indicate another expansion from India and parts of Iran and into central Asia and parts of Europe (migration from India into the "Europeanized Indian" population in Europe, i.e modern Europeans).

Kivisild et al. (2003) states that R2 is—and I quote—"rarely found outside the subcontinent".

That hardly makes R2 "prevailent throughout Europe," to use your words.

Look at the genetic evidence properly, attempt to understand it, then respond.

JFD 00:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The r1a haplogroup is at present ambiguous. But since it is found in East Europeans but not much in West Europeans, and is prevailent in Iran, Afganistan and India it would again suggest a migration East to West, stopping at Central Asia where East European groups were encountered. East europe and Central Asia was largely Scythian before this. Again, the dating here is critical and work is being done on this. But it is likely that the r1a1 haplogroup also originated in Iran and/or Afhganistan/Northwest India. To claim it originated in central Asia is pure conjecture in the same vein as blind faith in previous preconceived views. The entire article and much of the Indo European debate here is skewed to refelct personal biases, and this is not acceptable. See recent genetic work by Kashyap on Aryan non-migration which also indicated outward movement from India and Iran.

Watch844 21:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

This is what Kashyap himself has to say:

"The fact the Indo-European speakers are predominantly found in northern parts of the subcontinent may be because they were in direct contact with the Indo-European migrants, where they could have a stronger influence on the native populations to adopt their language and other cultural entities," Kashyap said.
He argues that even wholesale language changes can and do occur without genetic mixing of populations.

JFD 00:54, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The "credible scholars" you are referring to are David Frawley, a western Hindu with no academic credibility or relevant qualifications, and Koenraad Elst, a pro-Hindutva and anti-Islamist writer, neither of whom are professional linguists or geneticists. J.P. Mallory, in contrast, is a specialist in Indo-European studies, indeed he is one of the major experts and is editor of the main journal on the topic. He is the most authoritative figure it's possible to cite and it not for you to say that his view was "not true". You have provided no reply to the point about Georgia. Did you understand it? You have cited no sources and just made assertions, probably trotted out from Rajaram blogs. By the way, you have reverted SIX TIMES today. See Wikipedia policy (WP:3RR). Paul B 21:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

OIT is gaining support through multiple genetic evidence and scholarly/lingistic evidence whilst AIT/migration is consistently being disproven

This is also what Kashyap himself has to say:

There is "no clear genetic evidence for an intrusion of Indo-Aryan people into India, [and] establishment of caste system and gene flow."

Watch844, you do realize that there is a considerable gap in credibility between the National Geographic Society and a blog called "fugme", don't you?

JFD 08:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The link may be on a blog, but it is of a general press release from the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, Center for Indic Studies, of a conference which happened in July 2006. The same press release can be found here, and as it is official it is perfectly credible: http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2006/07/aryan-invasion-bites-dust-ns-rajaram.html

Also it is interseting that the press release says the following:

"Dr. Narahari Achar, a physicist from The University of Memphis clearly showed with astronomical analysis that the Mahabharata war in 3,067 BC, thus poking a major hole in the outside Aryan origin of Vedic people dating to 1500 BC. Interestingly, Witzel stated, for the first time to many in the audience, that he and his colleagues no longer subscribe to Aryan invasion theory, though he continues to hold to a foreign origin for the people and civilization of India. As noted previously, he presented no data in support of his position though invited to do so by the organizers."

It seems even the Muller influenced proponents like Witzel have realised that the AIT/migration fantasy has unravelled in front of their eyes. Watch844 10:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Debunking myths and fantasy is always enjoyable, and much needed. I am not stooping to incessant edit warring, because a) what is currently stated on Wikipedia is rather irrelevant, in that the curent and recent genetic and linguistic studies are all supporting a radical shift in thinking on Indo-European history in line with Out of India and/ or Out of Iran theories. b) Many of the people editing on wiki have very little/no lnowledge of the issue and are influenced by desperate bias or just victims of the perpetuation of ignorance started by the Max Muller fantasy stories of 150 years ago.

The quote by Mallory is almost 20 years old. Much has changed since then, and it is therefore no longer valid, if it ever was.

Elst is definately a notable scholar by any standards, and slandering him with the 'Hindutva' label is a pathetic attempt that seems rather fear driven, as does most of the Eurocentric claimants arguments. Central Asians of this time I would just like to remind you are Kazak/Kurdish type people and very different from West Russians or Europeans. Frawley's work may be more open to criticism, but he raises many valid arguments as well, arguments that cannot be brushed aside by attacking his persona.

In the quote from Kashyap you cite, the key word is 'MAY’. He says ‘May’ be becasue they were in comtact with' . Unlike yourself, geneticists try to retain an objective neutral viewpoint that is open to all possibilities. They do not try to fabricate a story based on their preconceived hopes/beliefs. The evidence also indicates that it ‘MAY NOT’ be because they were in contact with Central Asians. It also suggests that the central Asians may have got their language through contact with the Indo-Iranians.

Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, who is probably the most influential of population geneticists, teacher of Genographic Project director Spencer Wells, in Genes, Peoples, and Languages, which was published in 2000, writes that "The Aryan invasions of Iran, Pakistan, and India brought Indo-European languages to Dravidian-speaking areas."

So how about you stop trying "to sound as tho you know about the issue" instead of casting aspersions on others.

And while you're at it, don't presume to speak for the entire discipline of population genetics "unless you are a professional academic who is actively involved in the debate and has a mutitude of sources". JFD 02:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hence this is the clearest solid irrefutable genetic evidence that there was no widespread movement into India, thus comprehensively disproving any Aryan invasion/migration theory.

However, there is some (as expected) gene flow movement the other way, from Iran/Afganistan/Norwest India, into central Asia. Thus the evidence is COMPLETELY open to the direct possibility that the Indo-European languages spread: 1/. Through groups that migrated into Central Asia from Northwest India and Iran. 2/. Through these Indo-Iranian groups coming into contact with central Asians and transmitting their language to them without widespread mixing.

I CHALLENGE YOU to look at the 2006 genetic study that is linked here, and objectively see that it does indeed leave open and suggest the above mentioned real possible and likely scenarious.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46212/THERE-WAS-NO-ARYAN-INVATION-FROM-THE-STUDY-OF-Y-CHROMOSOMES

So what is it you are actually arguing for? AIT/migration has as noted been disproven conclusively. So I take it you are now clinging to a vague hope that somehow Central Asian tribes transmitted the language without migrating. Well this can go both ways. Central Asian tribes may have had the language transmitted to them.

The origin of the languages appears to be in Iran and India, more than it does in Central Asia. Since we know that most of central Asia spoke a Scythian (Iranian Language) at one time, this is a very real and likely possibilty for the early spread of Indo European to central Asia, before Central Asians took the language to Europe.

The genetic evidence already PRECLUDES (i.e Discards) the previous theory that a widespread migration from central Asia occurred into India, as was previously thought. Now you are trying to change the original theory and say languages may have come without genes. As sated, this is a wholly new argument that rests on much weaker foundations. Language may also have come to Central Asia from India and Iran without genes. But the genetic evidence indicates South to North expansion, East to West, with gene flow from India and Iran into central Asia, in line with the spread of Indo-European language from an origin in Northwest India/Afganistan and Iran.

Watch844 15:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not a calumny to say that Elst is pro-Hindutva. He's completely open about it. As for your fantasy that some 'previous theory' of mass migration is being changed, I quote from E.B. Havell, writing in 1918, "It is probable that the Aryans were always a very minute fraction of the people of India...it was by spiritual rather than physical ties that Aryans and non-Aryans were gradually bound together into a political unity with an abiding sense of nationality." (The History of Aryan Rule in India). There is no change from an original theory. There were always very varied views about the nature and size of migrations. But the essential point is that this is an issue of language history. Paul B 16:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Have no doubt: The fact that it has been proven there was no invasion or migration into India from central Asia severely weakens any 'foreign origin' theory and changes the argument of a number of theorists. Yes there were diverse views from earliest times. In fact Out of India and Out of Iran theory of the spread of languages to Europe via central Asia were also amongst the earlest theories before they fell out of fashion for political reasons. And there is some gentic evidence for migrations of Iranian groups into central Asia. This is not surprising, as it would mirror the 'ancestral' routes taken by the original Indian migrants who created Central Asian and European populations through their north west migrations. But as noted, the spread of languages to central Asia from India/Iran may have occured without mass northward migration. The fact that the recent studies support a return to these viewpoints is likewise not a change in any theories that have been around since the beginning of the debate. Watch844 11:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

to put it kindly, you are confusing "proof" with wishful thinking. Why you should wish some Bronze Age tribe migrated or didn't migrate this way or that is of course your private secret, and doesn't affect Wikipedia. I fail to see what "recent studies support a return to these viewpoints". The only way to suggest there is anything new here is completely misstating the nature of long-standing academic opinion. Which is of course a rhetorical trick as old as the hills. Please don't waste our time citing "IntelliBriefs" by ideological harlequins like Rajaram. Elst is the only name in this unsavoury company that is at all quotable. That doesn't make him notable for anything else. Elst's reputation is his own to squander, and we can (and do) cite his rather baroque arguments for whatever they are worth (they always seem to boil down to "some of my best friends are Hindutva, and while I'm not part of that myself, I think we should listen to them. After all, do we really really know anything at all?" dab (𒁳) 12:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

This press release has popped up before, e.g. here. It turns out this "Indic Studies department" is a joke, and the "release" had practically nothing to do with what the geneticists actually said. Cite actual literature, academia doesn't work by "press releases" issued by some random clown with access to a university website subdomain. dab (𒁳) 12:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

lol, "Notable proponants[sic] of the theory today are Koenraad Elst, David Frawley and Shrikant Talageri". Notability is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. To whoever wrote this, people are obviously notable because they endorse this nonsense. This actually translates "the OIT is endorsed by one known Indologist, K. Elst, who specializes on Hindu revivalism and Hindutva, plus a number of Hindutva ideologists masquerading as scholars." dab (𒁳) 12:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see you have realised how little it is much of the early 'scholarship' knew about the issue. Likewise we must remain open to debate as new developments arise. There are currently a few Eurocentric ideologists calling themselves scholars operating in the field, as has been the case for many years. The "Intelligibrief" is posted to corrobrate the Press release at the bottom of the page from the University of Masachusettes conference, to show it is part of the offical conference release and not part of a 'blog'.Attacking the press release is a strange tack. I have seen no evidence that it is nothing other than an official release and quotes exactly what was said by the genetecists involved, in line with their findings.

Please do not try to sound as tho you know about the issue or are in a position to asess what Elst or indeed any scholar who has researched the issue in depth is or is not doing for his career prospects, when leading Harvard academics like Witzel are drastically changing their viewpoints in light of new evidence. Genetics is extremely useful and has aided in our reconstructing the real origin and spread of the Indo-european languages. Whether or not that conforms to preconceived opinions is frankly irrelevent. What is important is to assess the information in light of what it conclusively rules out, and then where that leaves us.

Shrikant Talageri is likewise a respected academic and if you are truly interested in maintaining neutrality and looking at current scholarly viewpoints with a broad analysis of the issue, here is his position: http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarvesh/rigHistory/ch7.htm

All in all, recent genetic, archeological and linguistic evidence is a step in the right direction of descerining the truth of the matter and freedom from the socio-myth constructs that have plagued this field over the last century.

Watch844 12:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Watch844, you may not realize this, but we have discussed this stuff for more than a year. Believe me, I am familiar with everyting you say, to the point of terminal boredom. It has no merit. Familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policy. WP:RS, WP:UNDUE, WP:SYN. Yes, there is a handful of people trying to push the view you are embracing. They are driven by ideology and utterly isolated. Cite academic sources for each claim of your "recent evidence". Avoid cherry-picking. There is some room for debate on the topic of Genetics and Archaeogenetics of South Asia, where you will note we cite studies that come to conflicting results, but none of the points debated by the geneticists would crucially affect the scenario of Bronze Age Indo-Aryan migration. Sorry, but you are really hitting rock bottom here, we've been there, discussed it, and debunked it as fringy nonsense. It appears you are prone to misconceptions regarding the actual gist of scholarly mainstream. This is a result of calculated misrepresentation by the propagandists you have been exposed to. Forget the Hindutva websites, start by reading the Wikipedia articles, but go on to read the academic sources linked directly, and if you are willing to treat it as an academic question, not one of ideology, you will realize you have been misled. dab (𒁳) 12:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but your post is utterly ridiculous. Firstly, scholars such as Elst and Talageri have support by others working in the field. They are by no means isolated, and new evidence garners them increasing support. They debate and are in correspondence with other leading scholars such as Witzel about the issue. So unless you are a professional academic who is actively involved in the debate and has a mutitude of sources as do the three mentioned, your opinion is based on titbits and odd misconceptions from reading previously debunked theories and old pieces here and there.

Secondly, much of the evidence that has emerged has done so in the last 3 years. In particular, the Kashyap headed study was done in 2006 and continued research is being currently done. As such, the implications and resonance of it is still being felt, and this type of work is continuing to affect mainstream academic scholarship. Forget the skewed and misinformed articles you may have read from the past, and focus on what we KNOW FOR CERTAIN. That genetics of 1 year ago has definatively disproven AIT/migration is beyond doubt. This view will only stregthen as more work on it is done. Regardless of what has been discussed before, the very scholars on whom you get your opinions are debating the ramifications of all of this now, and the informed discussion is only just beginning.

Watch844 13:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

sorry, but you are wrong. Just repeating claims over and over doesn't make them any truer. Read WP:RS. Cite reliable, peer reviewed literature for all of your claims. Before that, you probably won't even get a reply, since everybody is tired of this particular topic. " this type of work is continuing to affect mainstream academic scholarship" is precisely what I mean by "wishful thinking". Predicting that mainstream will accept your pet view at some point in the future is a classic crank signal, and falls under WP:CRYSTAL. Feel free to come back once mainstream opinion has been swayed (don't hold your breath. I expect we'll have cold fusion first). dab (𒁳) 14:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Necessary but not sufficient

Sbhushan/Watch844 et al. repeatedly fails to recognize the distinction between necessary conditions and sufficient ones.

To whit,

Although the overall socioeconomic organization changed, continuities in technology, subsistence practices, settlement organization, and some regional symbols show that the indigenous population was not displaced by invading hordes of Indo-Aryan speaking people. For many years, the ‘invasions’ or ‘migrations’ of these Indo-Aryan-speaking Vedic/Aryan tribes explained the decline of the Indus civilization and the sudden rise of urbanization in the Ganga-Yamuna valley. This was based on simplistic models of culture change and an uncritical reading of Vedic texts...

Even if we take Kenoyer's statement as a given, it's still insufficient to prove OIT.

For instance, the timeframe of the Anatolian hypothesis is consistent not only with an IA Harappa, but also with Kennedy's observation of Indus Valley population discontinuity between 6000 and 4500 BC.

If Renfrew is correct, that doesn't "prove" OIT.

Regrettably, editors who share a certain POV seem to constant reminders of WP:REDFLAG:

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources

Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim.

• Claims not supported or claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view in the relevant academic community. Be particularly careful when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them.

Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple high quality reliable sources, especially regarding scientific or medical topics, historical events, politically charged issues, and in material about living people.

In other words, it's gonna take a lot more than a press release to demonstrate a sea change in the academic consensus. JFD 02:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you will find that 'sea change' is occurring at the moment at some levels, and the Maschusettes conference gives an indication of this changing tide. As much of the archeological evidence and genetic evidence is being reviewed, we can expect it to take time, especially if a new consensus is to be received. I have not said that at present the OIT has been proven only that the possibility of a Northwest India and Iran original homeland of the Indo-European speakers is very much still open. So we can we summise that

1/. The OIT/ with out of Iran theories are still very much open and current linguistic, archeological and genetic research is not at odds with it. 2/. The AIT/migration has been proven to be fiction by genetics.

As such, I think we can at least agree that a signifcant change is occurring with regard to present discussion, and that has been initiated by unambiguous genetic evidence, in contrast to extremely ambiguous linguistics, the consensus of which is also changing.

Therfore I think we can also agree that the proposition has not been 'rejected by scholars', as there are indeed some scholars who support this view and they are very much involved in the discussion at present.

Watch844 11:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

we agree on no such thing. If such a "sea change" is taking place, that's cool, why don't you come back once you can document it by pointing to actual academic sources. We do not anticipate academic "sea changes", we wait for them to happen first. Even if there was new evidence for ana actual out of India migration was presented (I haven't seen any), I am afraid it will have a hard time getting wide recognition: the Voice of India goons have done too much of a good job at discrediting the concept as propagandist bullshit. dab (𒁳) 11:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The Masacusettes conference is a good place to start if you want to see where the aacademic changes are occurring and discussion is heading. The idea that any such theories are 'propagandist' is similarly a common and expected defence mechanism that has likwise been emplyed frequently by the Eurocentric nonsense camp. Thankfully, in light of real indisputable genetic evidence, the real theores can be separated from the Eurocentric propagandist material of the last century (and it is) easily enough. Living in denial of the obvious changes will not help , especuilly since leading theorist like Witzel have now changed their tune. The next few years will be tremendous in starting to definatively separate fiction from the reality. Watch, and learn.

Watch844 12:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"living in denial" pretty much summarizes most of this article. I'm watching and learning. See you in a few years, then. dab (𒁳) 12:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. When you can cite your reliable, peer-reviewed academic sources, Watch844, then we'll listen. Until then, stop reverting. You are quite clearly edit-warring against consensus here. Moreschi ^Talk 12:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The famous "MA conference" is a surreal joke [3][4]. I doubt it is at all possible to be academically more discredited than N. S. Rajaram. In Asko Parpola's words, Thus far Rajaram has got away with this dishonesty because the scholarly community has not considered this work worthy of consideration: it has been taken more or less for granted that any sensible person can see through this trash and recognize it as such. However, the escalation of this nonsensical propaganda now demands the issue to be addressed. dab (𒁳) 12:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"Scholars"

Here's the thing: J. P. Mallory and Colin Renfrew, advocates of respectively Baltic-Pontic and Anatolian homelands, hold professorships in relevant academic fields at respected universities.

Elst, Talageri, Kazanas, and Frawley do not.

More importantly, Mallory and Renfrew have to their names any number of publications which have passed peer review and been well-received by academic colleagues in relevant fields.

By contrast, peer review had to be waived for Kazanas.

In sum, it is fraudulent to contend that Elst, Talageri, Kazanas, and Frawley have as much academic authority as Mallory or Renfrew.

JFD 15:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The issue of 'academic authority' is extremely subjective. In in any case, it is not an issue of percieved 'academic authority'. Neither is holding a professorship at an American institution (lol) in any way shape or form required.

Renfrew held a professorship at Cambridge for over 20 years and Mallory is a professor at Queen's University Belfast, in other words, not American institutions.

Your inability to get even basic facts right does your credibility no good, Watch844. JFD 17:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact due to the skewed nature of dogma and debate, it is probably in some ways a hindrance, as is demonstrated by the closing of centres for 'Indo-European studies' in a numebr of institutions, such as Cambridge. The issue is whether scolarship is divided on the issue or not. And it is clearly fraudulaent to claim that the theory is rejected by scolars, when it is not.

In short, Elst and Talageri are actively involved in scholarship, enough that scolars such as Witzel and Trautman have been in discussion and correspondence with them. They are recognised scholars in the field, as is Kazana, and only those with a deceptive hidden agenda would claim otherwise.

Watch844 15:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

They are being gradually recognized as raving cranks. Your score on the Crackpot index is appreciable,

• 10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is "only a theory", as if this were somehow a point against it.
• 10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a "paradigm shift".
• 40 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike.
• 40 points for claiming that when your theory is finally appreciated, present-day science will be seen for the sham it truly is. (30 more points for fantasizing about show trials in which scientists who mocked your theories will be forced to recant.)

This nonsense used to be ignored as beneath reviewing, but you are right that there is a "sea change" in that academics feel compelled to defend their field against ideological propaganda. Yes, Elst may be cited as holding a PhD in Indology (his PhD was about ... wait for it ... Hindutva: his interest in OIT is an outgrowth of his interest in Hindu nationalism). We do accept Elst as citable. Elst's is an isolated fringe view within Indology, and we would never even heard about it if it wasn't for the propaganda machine boosting it. As opposed to Elst, the Frawley-Rajaram-Voice of India "cargo cult scholarship" literally oozes bad faith and thinly veiled national mysticism, and really shouldn't even be brought up outside articles discussing "communalist" propaganda stunts. dab (𒁳) 07:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The scientific establishment is very much open to both Out of India and Out of Iran theories, as evidenced by Kashyaps genetics work from the India Institute of biologicals, and Peter Underhills study from Stanford University, both of which date to 2006. So please get you facts right before making incorrect claims about the 'Scientific establishment'.

On the contrary, it is you who seems to be claiming that the 'scientific establishment' is engaged in some kind of 'conspiracy' to prevent the view you have, since most of the recent scientifc studies that are being done support Out of India and Out of Iran, whilst systematically demolishing AIT/migration fictions.

Watch844 12:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

...said Rajaram. If the situation was like you claim, we would hardly have to rely on self-published autodidacts like Kazanas to cobble together a half coherent scenario for this article. Sorry, but you are just making a fool of yourself now. Rajaram's blog is one thing, Wikipedia is another, and they are happily separate. dab (𒁳) 12:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not see what link highly regarded and leading population geneticists such as V.K. Kashyap and Peter Underhill have to Rajaram. If the new evidence is written about by any authors that is one thing. But it should not detract from the legitaimate scientific equiries that are being done and the impact on current thinking it has, whatver 'position' is held on the issue.

Watch844 17:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Where exactly do Kashyap or Underhill say that genetics supports OIT? JFD 19:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

FAQ

looking at the amount of rehashing that goes on on this talk page, perhaps an {{FAQ}}, such as the one on Talk:Fox News Channel and Talk:Routing protocol is indicated. Doldrums 09:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

this FAQ is the article itself, which is after all the referenced outcome of previous discussion. The people who refuse to read the article itself will hardly be bothered to read a FAQ. When dealing with people who do not want to listen, such efforts are wasted... dab (𒁳) 07:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Erdosy's "lunatic fringe" comment

needs to be qualified as referring only to a particular current strain of OIT and not historical OIT theories. Doldrums 06:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Recognised scholarly theorists

Elst and Talageri are both recognised theorists subscribing to the OIT. It may generally be a minority view at present, but that is parlty due to the overturning of longstanding fantasy dogmas of the 19th century.

Yes, Elst is very much citable. And so is Talageri. Whether or not amateur Wikipedia posters think Talageri is citable or not, he was cited by Trautmann in his book "Aryans and Britsh India", so he is very much part of the scholarly debate, and if he is citable by the standards of professional academia of the field, he certainly merits mention here.

Watch844 11:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Elst and Talageri are the reasons we have this article at all (did you even read it)? It is undisputed that this article revolves around the opinions of Elst and Talageri. It is a minority view. I don't know of any tenured Indologist defending it. In fact, I know of no Indologist defending it besides Elst. Wikipedia does have room for fringe theories, but they have to be clearly marked as fringe theories. This topic here is a textbook case of a fringe theory steeped in crackpottery. Did you ever consider that there may be actual reasons why experts reject this scenario as a non-starter? Reasons beyond paranoid allegations of Indophoby and colonialism? OIT presents a pathetically implausible scenario as soon as you look into the details. Even Elst's timeline and map is a joke. If it was plausible, people would show interest. If a strong case could be made, Indo-Europeanists sceptical of the Kurgan scenario would be enthusiastic. As it happens, the Kurgan scenario looks almost watertight compared to the "OIT" case, and no sceptic dismissing the Kurgan model as too speculative would touch OIT with a five foot pole. And the VoI pseudoscholarly propaganda stunts have rather shown that no coherent case can be made even by authors who want to quite badly. dab (𒁳) 12:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

A case could be made that views such as those held by David Frawley may be considered 'fringe' (i.e India is the fount of most of world civilization, culture, and language ) . However, well established theories such as Out of India and Out of Iran on the origin of Indo-European languages are by no means 'fringe', and it is ridiculous and totally false to claim that they are. They are part of the debate. Any serious researcher in the field would know that we know far too little definitavely about the subject to make any bold assertions either way. And as noted, Trautmann cited and discussed Talageri's position and Kazanas was also discussed whilst Witzel has had back and forth correspondance with Elst. That is the definition of current scholarly debate.

Watch844 18:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

chuckle, "well established" indeed. A theory proposed by an expert on Hindutva in 2000, and rejected by practically every expert in the field. Stop your disingenious attempts to create the impression that this is in any way 'well established' when it so clearly isn't. This is a fringe topic if there ever was one. dab (𒁳) 08:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)