User talk:Steven Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal3

Proposal 1

Millennium '73 was an important event in the life of the subject. However by many accounts he had little active involvement in it besides his role as centerpiece. The event is covered in detail at Divine Light Mission#Millennium '73. All this article needs is a summary. Beyond the minimal proposal I've made, additonal material which is directly connected to the subject may be appropriate. But details about the DLM, its finances, and so on are out of place. Let's avoid unneccessary duplication between articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Beyond the minimal proposal I've made, additional material which is directly connected to the subject may be appropriate. I would like to see what material will be included before I comment on this proposal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not planning to add any more. I was leaving the door open for others to propose more material if they wanted to. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you double-check your version of Melton re the passage "the failure of the event to meet expectations generated negative publicity and left the Divine Light Mission heavily in debt"? Melton's Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America (1992, p. 219) does not mention negative publicity resulting from the event; the passage on Millennium reads, "... an event celebrating the birthday of Maharaj Ji's father and designed to announce the beginning of a thousand years of peace and prosperity. The event failed; attendance was minuscule. The Mission was left with a $600,000 debt which required it to cut its staff and programs." --Jayen466 22:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Collier mentions the negative publicity, but we can find a better source. Let me dig through my research. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't find a source besides Collier that refers specifically to negative publicity. The status of Collier as a source is in mediation limbo. Downton says that "Many followers were disappointed", so I've replaced the "publicity" with that. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

PS: The L.A. Times reports that:

• Only 20,000 people showed up and the group felt it was portrayed poorly by the media. MARK FORSTER Los Angeles Times Jan 12, 1979 pg. A1

Maybe something else will show up too. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Putting in that the festival was a "failure" and then sayig it was said to be "the high-point of Rawat's prominence as a guru.[43]" is laughably non-NPOV. Rumiton (talk) 16:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC) Proprosals 1 and 3 both suffer from this defect. Rumiton (talk) 16:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Please explain. We have numerous sources that say the festival was a "failure", "fiasco", etc. We also have plenty of sources that the DLM went downhill after that, both in terms of membership and media coverage. These are sourced assertions, presented neutrally. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I am starting to think Will stands for wilfully obtuse. To state that the high point of someone's life work was a "failure" is not neutrality. Far from neutrality. Rumiton (talk) 14:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Ready?

It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If you're refering to Proposal 3, Proposal 1, I agree. It's not necessary to mention "Hans Jayanti" because that festival was always known as "Millennium" even though it was scheduled around the anniversary of the date of Shri Hans's birthday, which is November 9th. To mention "Hans Jayanti" is extraneous information that is meaningless to readers.

Note (again) about these proposal pages: I don't know about anyone else, but I find the way these proposal pages are set to be unwieldy. It goes against the grain of my decades-long experience in technical, procedural manual, and business writing. These page headings must include the title of the specific proposals, eg, "Proposal 3 - DLM Millennium," (so one doesn't have to write down on paper what these edit drafts respresent -- especially in this the age of technology!). Then each "proposal proposal" (that labeling just goes again my grain!) :) should be labeled "Draft1, 2, 3..." not "Proposal 1, 2, 3..." and should include editor's signature. I dunno what the big problem is with making this process more simple -- I already proposed this to Steve and got no response. I don't have eight hours a day to devote to Wikipedia as some other do. Sylviecyn (talk) 16:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

• Indeed, and your comment wasn't ignored. Generally, these mediation cases only have one proposal page, this is the first case that has had more than one proposals page. I could do a page move to a more descriptive title, however I really am not so sure how it would be very, well useful. I generally think that on these pages, they shouldn't be signed with 4 tildes, I used this idea in the Second Intifada case, and the editors discussed each version on the article talk page. Now, signing the comments, I suppose you can if you really want to, but I don't see the necessity, it could cause issues, such as, "Editor X wrote proposal Y, look at their bias by mentioning/including/not including Z". Could cause some issues. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 16:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Steve. I didn't say you ignored me, I said I got no response.  :) Anyway, even though I think the way you've set these proposal pages is tedious and unwieldy, I have a request that when folks are talking about a particular Proposal of a Proposal (which should be titled "Draft" for ease of reference) on the corresponding talk pages, it would be very helpful if editors would be so kind as to preface their discussion with the proposal number to which they are referring. Btw, looking over the Second Intifada page didn't demonstrate anything to me at all, so I'm not sure what your point was. Thanks. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• I was referring to the Second Intifada talk page, in the large collpasible box, but never mind :) Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 13:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• To Sylvicyn regarding the Hans Jayanti festival: This was also discussed at User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal1#Prop. 5. My reasoning is that the Hans Jayanti was an important biographical event in two successive years, 1972 and '73. Since it's mentioned twice it's a useful detail. I'm not tied to including it, I just think it's easier to include than to exclude it. If other editors prefer to delete it I won't object. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks Will. Hans Jayanti (HJ) was an annual festival held on or about November 9th, not just in 1972 and 1973. I don't feel strongly either way about keeping the reference to HJ, but I've never, ever heard of "Millennium 73" referred to as the "renamed Hans Jayanti festival." What does the source(s) say about it? Thanks. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
• The text (in Prop.1) says The Hans Janyanti of 1973, called "Millennium '73",... The source (in the DLM article) says: So when the DLM's annual Hans Jayanti [= birthday] festival drew near, although it has been traditionally held in India, the decision was made to move the show to America. I suggest reading the existing paragraphs in Prem Rawat to see how the festival information appears in the context of events. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal 2

An editor has posted "Proposal 2". Could he please describe the changes from Proposal 1 and explain the reasoning? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Certainly. Numerous sources describe SatPal and Davis as the "main organizers" and they should be identified as such and the source provided doesn't mention any other organizers. The assertion "the failure of the event to meet expectations disappointed followers" is contradicted by "premies were reported to be "cheerful, friendly and unruffled, and seemed nourished by their faith". No source provided for " The festival has been described as the high-point of Rawat's prominence as a guru.[43]". In any case, we should stick with facts rather than opinions.Momento (talk) 08:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• Numerous sources say all kinds of things about the festival, and we're doing our best to report them all in the DL article. I'll change the desciption of the organizers to meet your objection that it implies there are more of them.

• You deleted this sourced info: "Called the "youth culture event of the year"[40], the failure of the event to meet expectations disappointed followers[41] and left the Divine Light Mission heavily in debt.[42] The festival has been described as the high-point of Rawat's prominence as a guru.[43]" That "[43]" is a source. That's all sourced info. The fact that members were smiling during the event doesn't mean that they weren't disappointed. Even Collier describes how disappointed she was. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

That's right Will, and you deleted twice as much sourced material in your proposal. You deleted "Though it was not covered by the national television news, it did get extensive coverage in the print media and was depicted in the award-winning U.S. documentary "Lord of the Universe". And deleted "The premies were reported to be "cheerful, friendly and unruffled, and seemed nourished by their faith". To the 400 premie parents who attended, Rawat 'was a rehabilitator of prodigal sons and daughters". Other reporters found a "confused jumble of inarticulately expressed ideas.'" And removed "According to Thomas Pilarzyk, the Millennium economic deficit was partially the result of poor management by the "holy family", Rawat's mother and three older brothers as well as the much lower than anticipated attendance. Consequently, the festival necessitated policy shifts within the movement organization". All sourced material. Why do you keep complaining about my edits when you do exactly the same thing? This is about distilling the DLM version to make a more suitable version for the PR article.Momento (talk) 21:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The exact amount of the debt isn't the most relevant to the subject and is the kind of thing better left to the full treatment at DLM. The quote "youth culture event of the year" is also not highly relevant, so we can leave it off too. However information about the subject's performance there, and other comments about him directly are appropriate and relevant. I'll prepare another draft to try to bridge the differences. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Prop.3

I've posted Prop.3. It's drafted to incorporate some of the text from Prop.2 as well as the discussion on this page. It includes some assessment of the event. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal #4

It is about time that editors make an effort to attribute opinions to those that hold them, rather than asserting these opinions as if they were facts (which are obviously not). 20:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

A) We dont' need to say "(a festival celebrating Rawat's father's birthday)," because we already explain that in the previous paragraph. B) What's our source that says it was Satpal Rawat and Rennie Davis who promoted the event as "the most significant event in human history"? That appears to be a false attribution. C) Downton say "many" followers were disappointed, not "some". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Corrected. The description: "the most significant event in human history" is attributed to Davis, no? The older brother was also a main organizer, no? Otherwise provide the source for the quote (which is not available in your proposal). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Is it attributed to Davis? I don't know where or by whom. Galanter says just that is was billed as "the most significant event in human history" without saying who was billing it that way. Olson says it was publicized as the most significant event in human history, also without saying who was doing the publicizing. Since the subject had a 50-member public relations team there's no reason to assume that Davis or Satpal Rawat weer the ones who came up with that slogan, or were responsible for promoting it that way. Of course, if you find a source that says differently then we can deal with that. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:41, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Is Mangalwadi talking about Rawat's prominence in the US? If so it should be stated.Momento (talk) 00:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Balyogeshwar reached the zenith of his popularity during the Millennium Festival 1973, in Houston. There his devotees declared him to be "the savior of the world" who was ushering in the thousand years of utopia. It would not be an esaggeration to say that at that time is popularity overshadowed that of all the gurus and religious leaders in the world. But it did not take too long for it to dwindle to almost nothing. Mangalwadi, Vishal. The World of Gurus. Vikas Publishing House New Delhi 1977. p.219
• That's the reference. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Fixed, staying close to the sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)