Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment: Difference between revisions
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No - it is restrictive enough as it is. If a use is less than 30 days or have less than 500 edits, then they should be resticts. Anyone with an account over 30 days should be given a pass. YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE EDITED WIKIPEDEA FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS. They should not be restricted. |
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[[User:Mrbrklyn|Mrbrklyn]] ([[User talk:Mrbrklyn|talk]]) 06:39, 16 March 2016 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 06:39, 16 March 2016
Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
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| Request name | Motions | Initiated | Votes |
|---|---|---|---|
| Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions | 10 May 2024 | 0/4/0 |
| Case name | Closed |
|---|---|
| Conflict of interest management | 13 Apr 2024 |
| Mzajac | 7 May 2024 |
| Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
|---|---|---|---|
| Amendment request: Palestine-Israel_articles_3#500.2F30 | none | (orig. case) | 15 March 2016 |
No arbitrator motions are currently open.
Requests for clarification and amendment
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel_articles_3#500.2F30
Initiated by Sir Joseph at 14:06, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Palestine-Israel_articles_3#500.2F30 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Sir Joseph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
No - it is restrictive enough as it is. If a use is less than 30 days or have less than 500 edits, then they should be resticts. Anyone with an account over 30 days should be given a pass. YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE EDITED WIKIPEDEA FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS. They should not be restricted.
Mrbrklyn (talk) 06:39, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- Information about amendment request
- All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
- All anonymous IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days days tenure are prohibited from editing....
Statement by Sir Joseph
The existing statement has a logic hole that while unintended creates some ambiguity if read logically. If someone has fewer than 500 edits but more than 30 days tenure, because the statement is written in the negative, that person would not be covered by the clause. While an admin and ARBCOM might understand that the person should be covered, it should be rewritten to clarify that you need to be here 30 days and 500 edits because we should enforce rules as written not as intended. You can see one discussion at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Removing_analysis_of_POV_author_in_Hebron_Pages where the logic was pointed out (originally, some user noted that it was clear, and when I pointed out to him the negative, he reversed, so clearly there is some murkiness.) As stated at the page:
- Shit, you're right. I'm reading it as it's intended, not as it's written. Okay, so ARBCOM needs to read logical conjunction. Clpo13
- With all those AND's in the the 500/30 ruling, it looks like a logic gate. The assumption at the time looks to be based on preventing brand new accounts and IPs from editing but it indeed fails to rule out old accounts with less than 500 edits, whether it be because the account holder doesn't edit much or the edit counting software doesn't count extremely historical edits. I'm striking my comment above as well. This looks to be something that needs a Clarification request at WP:AE Blackmane
- I think my statement covers what is intended by the ARBCOM ruling, I ran it through my SQL brain and it does work. I also switched to "fewer" because I believe that is more grammatically correct when you are counting something distinct. This should be a simple amendment that should clarify the issue. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:06, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Statement by RolandR
Despite the assertion above, the sanction is not written in the negative. It is quite clear, and positive: "All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited...". The "and" makes it evident that only editors with both 30 days tenure and 500 edits are allowed to edit in this topic area. RolandR (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sir Joseph's latest response does not make sense. The phrase "All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited..." quite clearly means "all anonymous IP editors" and "all accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure". Parsing it the way Sir Joseph suggests would ban "all anonymous editors" and "all accounts with fewer than 500 edits" and "30 days tenure" (not "editors with fewer than 30 days tenure"). This would be nonsensical, and obviously not what is intended; to create such a sanction, the phrase would have had to read "All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits or 30 days tenure are prohibited..." Since the arbitrators chose to use the word "and", not the word "or", it is clear that their intention was that editors were obliged to meet both criteria, not simply either criterion. At least I agree with him about the use of "less" instead of "fewer". RolandR (talk) 17:10, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- And this has nothing whatsoever to do with mathematicians or computer programmers. We are editors on English Wikipedia, reading and writing in English and employing (or trying to) the common rules of grammar, not scientific specialists trying to programme a machine. RolandR (talk) 17:34, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Additional Clarification Statement by Sir Joseph
RolandR, because this is ARBCOM, we have to be exact in the ruling, and this statement is not logical in what they want. If you parse this out logically, it excludes old accounts with fewer than 500 edits. The statement as currently written, basically says: All anonymous editors AND all editors with less than 500 edits AND editors with less than 30 days tenure. Because of all the "ANDS" the last one means it is a distinct statement, similarly to how the 500 edits clause is distinct from the anonymous edit clause. It is a simple amendment to clarify that this ruling is for anonymous edits, and 500 edits and also those with less than 30 days tenure. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:47, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- RolandR, why are you breaking the statement the way you are, "All anonymous edits" and "all accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure" the way it is written, you can also break it as, "All anonymous edits and all accounts with less than 500 edits" and "30 days tenure" I'm not sure why you are against this proposal. This clarifies the intended ruling. If you take the written statement as it is now and parse it logically, it will fail what ARBCOM intended. Take it to a programmer or a mathematician. The fact that people are debating it means it is not 100% clear and if a few commas can clarify it then we should change it. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly, and the statement as written is ambiguous. You know what ARBCOM intended so you don't see the ambiguity perhaps. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:40, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Blackmane
I also commented in the ANI thread that Sir Joseph refers to. The ambiguity arose because the reported user had only about 350 edits but the age of the account was well over a few years. The Arbcom ruling does not include such accounts. The spirit of the ruling was to prevent new accounts and anons from diving straight into the swamp of PI articles. The ambiguity unfortunately does leave a loophole whereby long dormant accounts with less than 500 edits could bypass the ruling. It would be worth clarifying whether these accounts are included under the ruling. It could be argued that such dormant accounts would not be familiar with the more recent ARbcom rulings and should thus be excluded from editing in ARBPIA3 sanctioned articles. Blackmane (talk) 04:16, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel_articles_3#500.2F30: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).