Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Josh Cahill

Josh Cahill

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So, this article was made years ago by someone who is blocked for paid editing, and there's been numerous suspected COI incidents over years.

I'm probably one of the most inclusionist editors on this website, and frankly, I cannot see any indicators of notability for this guy at all. Almost all the sources aren't about him, they're about the airline. ~~He seems to just be a provocateur who bullies airlines for clicks.~~ DarmaniLink (talk) 19:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Travel and tourism, Aviation, Internet, and Germany. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Mostly covered in non-RS, or iffy reliable sources. These are about the best I could find [1] and [2]. Daily Dot isn't terribly reliable (mid-level reliability) per our lists. Bangkok Post, I'm unsure... No coverage in anything we'd use as a solid RS. Oaktree b (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete: As per prop and per @Oaktree b.

The only sources that come close to RS were the Freie Presse (FP) articles, but those have been killed along with their archives, and it still wouldn't get it close to the notability finish line. More specifically, those seemed to be human-interest stories leaning heavily towards WP:1E.

The sources found by Oaktree b also seem to be in WP:1E territory, in addition to them being of the "random person had bad experience" caliber that seems to be popular by some outlets nowadays and often uses social media as a source.

More formally, I see issues with regard to the following guidelines (keeping in mind WP:V and WP:NEXIST):

- Not meeting WP:BASIC due to lack of multiple reliable secondary sources
- Not meeting any of the points under WP:ANYBIO
- Ditto for WP:AUTHOR
- Ditto for WP:ENT
- Ditto for WP:SIGCOV
- Ditto for WP:NSUSTAINED

And while not a formal guideline, it meets pretty much all of the observations in WP:NYOUTUBER.

I'd even go as far as to recommend OS deletion as a courtesy to the subject, seeing as they've gone through some length to keep their legal name from wikipedia.ConcurrentState (talk) 23:10, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, also noteworthy that the article never has been existed on German language Wikipedia even though they are German. Killarnee (talk) 00:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that this is noteworthy at all, given that the titles of the videos listed for his Youtube channel all seem to be in English, and that neither the article being discussed nor anything I've read about him suggests that he reviews or does anything else of note in German. -- Hoary (talk) 08:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I'm seeing a lot of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT in these deletion rationales. We can all have our opinions about Josh's clickbait "journalism" and the confirmed COI editing of the article, but for better or worse, he is quite successful at making headlines and a casual trawl of Google News finds plenty of WP:RS including Bangkok Post [3], South China Morning Post [4], New Indian [5], AsiaOne [6], news.com.au [7], etc. All these articles are examples of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" and thus meet WP:GNG, and they cover different incidents, so its not WP:1E either. I also disagree with ConcurrentState's rationale above: the fact that the online copies of reliable sources (Freie Presse) have been removed does not make those sources unreliable, much less have any impact on the subject's notability. Jpatokal (talk) 05:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that they refer to him as a "german vlogger" and not by name is more than enough evidence of a complete lack of general notability. Look at the content of the articles in question. That isn't an establishment of notability, that's basic routine coverage of random incidents that happen, posted on the internet. My name shows up in a few articles. I'm not notable though. DarmaniLink (talk) 05:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All the articles I linked are about Josh Cahill, refer to him by name, and pass the WP:GNG test of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Jpatokal (talk) 10:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll clarify, the "titles" don't refer to him by name, and instead they refer to him as a "german vlogger", before later giving his name, after outlining the controversy with the airline. That's an indicator of a lack of notability. Notable people are recognizable by name. Take any notable youtube/streamer, their names/alias appear in article titles about them, or precluded by their profession. asmongold hikaru

It's frankly WP:ROUTINE coverage of controversy. DarmaniLink (talk) 11:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your title theory is unsupported by the actual guidelines at WP:GNG, and you're also misapplying WP:ROUTINE: if these events were routine, they wouldn't be getting dedicated articles in major newspapers. Jpatokal (talk) 11:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except the coverage is about the controversies, and doesn't establish his notability as a person. For a person already notable, that information might be of encyclopedic interest.

Even should we accept your premise, WP:GNG is just a guideline. It's not a guarantee of notability. If these events were all standalone, we would be questioning whether or not they were notable as single events (and therefore whether or not WP:1E could even apply). As concurrent put it above, it's the "random person had bad experience" cruft that gets thrown out on slow news days. From WP:ROUTINE:
Run-of-the-mill events—common, everyday, ordinary items that do not stand out—are probably not notable.
DarmaniLink (talk) 12:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the titles of some of the articles referenced above:
Bangkok Post: "Vlogger faces backlash"

SCMP: "German vlogger gets death threat over critical review of Singapore Airlines"

New Indian: "India’s Vistara Hits Back At German Vlogger Over Roster Accusations, Malpractices"

news.com.au: "Travel blogger ‘bullied’ by airline after posting mid-flight bad review"

AsiaOne: "Foreign travel vlogger considers Singapore Airlines cabin crew a 'letdown'"

What's the one thing in common here? That's right, Josh Cahill, who is the primary subject of all these articles, and getting death threats for posting bad reviews is hardly a "common, everyday, ordinary item". On the other side of the coin, having bad service on an airline is indeed common and everyday, but AsiaOne is writing about it because Josh is notable enough that his opinions carry weight. Jpatokal (talk) 05:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Someone getting death threats due to reviews posted on the internet absolutely is an every day item. [8][9][10] Also, I'll retract what I said earlier about the titles, after reviewing WP:HEADLINES. We shouldn't pay headlines any weight at all, and we should instead take into account the content of articles. DarmaniLink (talk) 07:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for acknowledging that you were wrong, and indeed, let's look at the content. To repeat myself, all the articles I linked are about Josh Cahill, refer to him by name, and pass the WP:GNG test of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

I'm also looking forward to your AFD of Keith Lee (food critic), one of your death threat recipients and also apparently somebody notable enough for Wikipedia :) Jpatokal (talk) 07:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At the risk of repeating myself and us moving in circles again, the articles are not about Josh Cahil per se, they about the airline and its treatment of a passenger. As mentioned previously, it is routine coverage, with JC not as the subject but as the customer of the airline.

Reviewing any of your examples shows that it isn't about JC, it's about the airline, and its treatment of a passenger.

Also, Keith Lee has tons of coverage about him as a person, which push him just over the finish line for notability.[11][12]etc. He gets daily coverage about every restaurant he tries and leaves a review at, good or bad. JC gets mentioned secondary in an article as the """victim""" whenever its something that the airline did. DarmaniLink (talk) 08:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Notable people are recognizable by name." There are degrees of recognizability and of notability. Few periodicals writing about Mick Jagger would think it better to title the article to include "musician Mick Jagger"; the Manfreds weren't as big as the Stones, so Paul Jones is likely to get a quick and simple description. So those recognizable by name are notable (or mere celebs), but plenty of people not immediately recognizable by name are also notable. -- Hoary (talk) 08:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably Keep. Whether you like him or not but the article seems to be relevant. If you compare his page views to the only other "aviation vlogger" here, Sam Chui, Cahill seems to be way more relevant in search traffic, which means users are interested in the subject. This source seems relevant by Corriere.it. - a rather dedicated interview. However, seeing all the edit wars and the name issue, it's probably better to have it deleted, also in his interest... but saying "He seems to just be a provocateur who bullies airlines for clicks." is not a neutral kinda view and as @Jpatokal already mentioned WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT - just my opinion. — Partisan321 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 06:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC). Sock !vote struck. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC) noting for clerical reasons, strike was previously removed by User:Jpatokal in Special:Diff/1211283295, Restored by User:DarmaniLink[reply]
Comment It's worth mentioning, the page mentioned by the account who made his first edit on this AFD (welcome!), Sam Chui was created by the same editor who did paid editing (User:VirenRaval89) in diff Special:Diff/950683366 (then subsequently edited by an IP with the exact same edit summaries), a few months prior to making this article up for deletion Special:Diff/982826878. DarmaniLink (talk) 07:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to venture into WP:PA w/r/t the new account (and will address their arguments on their merits soon after), but I'd be remiss not to point out that I'm getting some strong quack deja vus when seeing their misapplication of and emphasis on the neutrality principles of Wikipedia. It's very reminiscent of the talking points about neutrality and bias on the article talk page. Some examples that come to mind are here[13], here[14], here[15] and here[16].

Edit: I see that @Vanamonde93 has closed the SPI in the meantime, would it be bad form to ask them to consider keeping it open until the AfD has concluded? ConcurrentState (talk) 19:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This should probably go on ANI with a link to the SPI. DarmaniLink (talk) 20:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
’’’Keep’’’ One of the most famous Aviation YouTubers. — 92.16.239.89 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 18:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC).[reply]
Hi! I see this is your first ever edit, that isn't a policy based argument. DarmaniLink (talk) 19:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
~~I'm coming down on the side of delete.~~ I looked at the links Jpatokal shared and I was in two minds, but I just feel that each of the articles is more about an airline's notable behaviour toward a passenger, not coverage the person as notable. Mgp28 (talk) 17:57, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the reason that behavior is notable is because it happened to somebody who is notable. I don't have newspapers writing about me when I get denied entry to a lounge or dislike the onboard catering, nor do I get death threats if I complain about either on my blog. But if you want WP:RS about Josh himself, here's a dedicated profile/interview by Corriere della Serra, one of Italy's largest newspapers: https://www.corriere.it/economia/consumi/24_febbraio_18/josh-il-blogger-che-recensisce-e-fa-arrabbiare-le-compagnie-aree-controllo-anche-i-bagni-6af8dd9b-9052-4f90-b875-acb74f08cxlk.shtml Jpatokal (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that poor behaviour by companies is only reported on if the recipient is notable. Newsapers are full of reports of people being mistreated. I think they would argue there is a strong public interest to report on such things that affect us all. The Corriere profile is more compelling. I couldn't see any indication that this was paid for, so it seems a reporter has sat down and interviewed the subject and an editor has chosen to give some space for the interview. This is just tipping me into a weak keep. Mgp28 (talk) 08:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Agreeing with the above !votes; I would say keep since the subject meets notability guidelines, but the editors who pointed out that these news stories are routine motivated me to !vote delete since the subject doesn't fully meets notbility guidelines. Toadette ^{(Let's discuss together!)} 07:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: the same as above. Much of the content and news articles seems quite trivial. Ldm1954 (talk) 23:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Jpatokal. There are plenty more, similar write-ups: "Aero Dili Criticized After Posting Aviation YouTuber's Passport Online in Revenge Against Negative Flight Review", "Qatar Airways Under Fire For Banning Aviation YouTuber Josh Cahill", "YouTuber says Qatar Airways banned him from flying with them ever again because he left a bad review", "Airline Posts Passport of Popular Airline YouTuber Publicly Online in ‘Revenge’ For Negative Flight Review", etc. Each is indeed more about the airline than about our subject, and the gist of each review could instead have been published on TripAdvisor or similar. But news outlets choose to write about Cahill's experiences, and about what he does, rather than about your experiences or mine, because he's energetic, articulate and conspicuous. (You may be too. I'm not.) -- Hoary (talk) 08:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep these mid-sized YouTubers almost all fall under this weird on-the-fence area of notability. Whether they are notable lies nearly entirely on personal interpretations of WP:GNG. My personal interpretation, taken in conjunction with the sources already cited in this article, leads me to lean toward keep. The sources are all marginal, but the quantity of marginally acceptable sources holds some weight, in my opinion. Good day—RetroCosmos ^talk 16:18, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on "He seems to just be a provocateur who bullies airlines for clicks" within the nomination: If this is being proposed as a deletion argument, then it's a worthless one (see WP:IDONTLIKEIT); but worse than this, it seems to me to infringe WP:BLPTALK. -- Hoary (talk) 23:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added "it seems" in front to make it explicit that it is an opinion. :)

Poor form? Sure, I'll admit that, and I'll voluntarily strike that out. However, the rest of the argument that the coverage is trivial/routine, and about the airlines rather than the individual, which you agreed with me on in your above !vote, still stands. DarmaniLink (talk) 01:41, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for striking it out. In my so-called "!vote", I described what I'd linked to as primarily about the airlines rather than about Cahill. But this wasn't a description of all the links provided so far. Indeed, User:Jpatokal has just now provided a little list of links whose titles suggest that they're primarily about Cahill. -- Hoary (talk) 07:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]