Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2010 September 13

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 West Bank shooting

There was no consensus to delete. The claim that NOTNEWS trumps NOTABILITY seems weak because the editors who supported retention made a case that this incident was not routine, having particular special characteristics and the closer failed to address this argument. In asserting the primacy of the not news argument, the close lacked consistency with our general practise and failed to observe the guidance of WP:DGFA by not respecting the judgement of the editors and deleting despite the element of doubt.

The below is copied from the closing editor's talk page: I saw that you deleted three articles about terrorist attacks on Israel and Jordan with the reason NOTNEWS. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 rocket attack on Eilat/Aqaba Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/June 2010 West Bank shooting Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 West Bank shooting I would like your blessing in cleaning out the related cats starting with all articles in Category:Terrorist incidents in 2010. If you disagree, then please state why the three you deleted are different from anything in there. --Shuki (talk) 18:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

• Essentially its down to you whether you see sufficiently similar characteristics between the articles in that catagory for these AFDs to be a precedent. I certainly do not see the lists as being bound by these and whether the other articles should be deleted no doubt will depend on whether there is an overarching article that already covers the subject in part or whole. I should also draw your attention to WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe that your deletion close of these three articles was incorrect, perhaps because this is a region that you do not follow closely. You are doubtless aware that there are ongoing peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The incident that you deleted Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 West Bank shooting is having a material impact on these talks, in particular, because pressure from settlers in the West Bank has caused the government of Israel to lift the ban on construction in West Bank settlements [1], [2], but also it is widely understood that Hamas launched the attacks in a deliberate effort to derail the peace talks [3], [4]. there are dozens more article like these. Citing an incident with this kind of impact as a news story of merely temporary interest is incorrect.

The Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/June 2010 West Bank shooting also continues to be in the news. [5], and, significantly, to be cited [6] as an obstacle (or s a reason for obstructing)[7] the peace process. As above, I can cite many recent article similar to these.

My objection to your deletion of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 rocket attack on Eilat/Aqaba is that the title under which the article was deleted was, if I recall correctly, a move from a previous title that, like the article, treated the August rocket attacks as the most recent in a series of rocket attacks that jointly target (and cause destruction in) Aquaba, Jordan, and Eilat, Israel. This is not a trivail topic and, unfortunately, not a transient topic as there have been a seris of such attacks in recent years.

I would also like to second User:Shuki's argument. Single terror attacks, even failed ones, in Europe and the United States are routinely deemed worthy of Wikipedia articles. You bring WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS to bear. I would argue, rather, that many articles on single incidents over many years have created a defacto Wikipedia standard whereby single incidents of terrorism, even failed terror attacks and incidents, merit articles. 2004 financial buildings plot, Wood Green ricin plot, Columbus Shopping Mall Bombing Plot, Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar SUV attack, 2005 Los Angeles bomb plot, Qantas Flight 1737. there are many more such Wikipedia articles on individual incidents in which no one was killed, or which were plots that never were carried out. Wikipedia standards ought to be consistent. Rather than selectively delete terror incidents in Israel, I argue that we ought to accept articles about incidents of terrorism worldwide. How, after all, can we possibly argue that the 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt is WP notable, while the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 rocket attack on Eilat/Aqaba Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/June 2010 West Bank shooting, and the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 West Bank shooting are not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AMuseo (talk • contribs)

Am I right that you are essentially arguing for an exemption from NOTNEWS for I/P articles based on practise and overarching importance? I'm afraid that I must disagree with that because the project as a whole needs to work to different standards. NOTNEWS is a policy which means that it trumps N which is a guideline. The time to decide if a newslike subject has enduring notability outside the immediate impact and headlines is several months down the road. August is an even worse time to make that kind of judgement for recent events because its the silly season and the papers have nothing to print. My personal view (but not one I was expressing in the close) is that there should be overarching articles that include details of these events in the context of the overall dispute - i.e. properly summarising them in the context of everything that is going on in the I/P field. Otherwise its just another news article about another routine and regrettable atrocity in a region already full to overflowing with bad events. Spartaz ^Humbug! 03:52, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

No, the issue is that community WP:CONS trumps NOTNEWS. It's also about dozens, if not hundreds of articles existing, but a unique decision made here to ignore that. I'm going to ask you again; If I put up other similar 'crap' articles up for AfD like AMuseo listed above, will you support and delete at the end of the discussion week? --Shuki (talk) 07:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

You are completely wrong there. A local consensus does not trump site wide norms and standards and NOTNEWS has been a long standing policy that has wide support. The keep arguments were based on two main elements -that these articles were notable and that anyway IP articles are more important. The first is irrelevant because its too soon to see evidence of enduring notability so the policy trumps the guideline and the second is simply arguing that a local consensus should trump a site wide consensus, which doesn't happen. Spartaz ^Humbug! 08:26, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I am certainly not "arguing for an exemption from NOTNEWS for I/P articles." User:Shuki and I are making two clear and simple arguments. One is that there is a WP:CONS that individual terrorism incidents are significant. This consensus is demonstrated by the fact that Wikipedia has hundreds of such articles, many about incidents as minor as the Columbus Shopping Mall Bombing Plot. That article has been on Wikipedia since 2007. The fact that hundreds of stable Wikipedia articles exist on minor plots, incidents of intended terrorism that never happened, makes it clear not that anyone is arguing that Israel/Palestine articles should be treated differently, but that I/P articles are in fact being treated differently than other articles. To wit: they are deleted whereas comparable articles about incidents of terrorism elsewhere in the world are not. Note, for example, that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 West Bank shooting was nominated for deletion before I had even finished writing it. The 2010 Ottawa terrorism plot was not treated this way. Nor was the 2010 Newry car bombing. To keep them but delete Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 West Bank shooting you have to argue that I/P articles be treated differently than articles about the British Isles. My second argument is that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/June 2010 West Bank shooting and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 West Bank shooting should not be deleted under NotNews because they are about incidents that are having a real impact on the peace process and on the construction freeze in settlements in the West Bank. And that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/August 2010 rocket attack on Eilat/Aqaba , despite the poor title, it is in fact not about a single incident but about a series of rocket attacks over several years.AMuseo (talk) 11:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Deletion review for August 2010 rocket attack on Eilat/Aqaba

An editor has asked for a deletion review of August 2010 rocket attack on Eilat/Aqaba. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:21, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

August 2010 rocket attack on Eilat/Aqaba

August 2010 rocket attack on Eilat/Aqaba (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

There was no consensus to delete. The claim that NOTNEWS trumps NOTABILITY seems weak because we routinely cover topics which are in the news and do this to the extent that we reserve a place on the main page for them. In considering whether a topic is weighty rather than ephemeral, notability is commonly used as a test and so the two considerations are complementary rather than antagonistic. The editors who supported retention made a case that this incident was not routine, having particular special characteristics and the closer failed to address this argument. In asserting the primacy of the not news argument, the close lacked consistency with our general practise and failed to observe the guidance of WP:DGFA by not respecting the judgement of the editors and deleting despite the element of doubt. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:14, 13 September 2010 (UTC)