Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Vivaldi

In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 00:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 01:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC).

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• Vivaldi (talk · contribs · logs)

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Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

Vivaldi (talk · contribs) This user has continued to make POV edits by deleting criticism and bolding sentences. Moreover, this user has been devoting the majority of time to simply reverting the page to weeks ago thereby ignoring and white washing better sourced and correct criticism of a controversial subject. This user has campaigned through name calling[1], deceitful summary[2], and hostility to policy[3]. Trying to resolve the disputes on the talk pages and on the user's talk page has resulted in insults and complete hostility. This user has deliberately tried to downplay criticism and has removed cited controversy and criticism. Arbusto 01:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Description and Evidence of disputed behavior

Preying from the Pulpit

• User has tried putting this article up for afd, but resulted in no consensus. As a result the user has pushed for its merging.
• With no edit summary[4] of reason left on the talk user removes "unaccredited" and cited newspaper articles explaining the program's contents.
• With no edit summary of reason on the talk more POV edits are made removing content.[5]
• Large sections of quotes 5 sentence criticism to one sentence claims add by Vivladi on the program were removed by me and I added a external link. I explained critcism goes in a criticism section, user revert the changes again[6] also removing "unaccredited" and changing the meaning of a sentence about a police investigation. I added in a criticism section and put the criticism there.
• No reason left on the talk or in the edit summary[7] same edits.
• And again[8].
• User deletes sources/press mentions without comment.[9]
• Other uncommented deletes.[10]
• Vivaldi's proposed edits to this article[11] adds in many full sections of criticism quotes including 2 full block quotes ALL from one article. This edit also contains bolding of certain parts this user wants to emphasize. After being told this violates NPOV and Wikipedia:Criticism, two weeks later this user has continued to edit war. According to wikipedia policy, "criticism that is integrated into the article should not disrupt the article or section's flow." Adding full block quotes of criticism that disrupts the flow and copy anf pasting a 9 sentence rebuttal to a one sentence description changes the POV of the article. And the bolding of one quote over another is clearly a case POV. After explaining this on the talk page, these edits have continued for 11 days: [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], and [19]. To meet this user half way I added a criticism section and summarized Hyles' criticism of the article's subject[20]. Vivaldi ignored this and simply continued reverting without any explanation(see list of diffs above).

Jack Hyles

• Without any edit summary[21] or reason left on the talk massive sections of newspaper cited controversy is removed. Including changing around the sourcing method and a bolding a section the user wishes to emphasize.
• User removes the notation that the school is unaccredited[22].
• User bolds section to emphasize[23] one claim over another.
• User removes criticism[24] claiming the book is self published. When asked for proof of this user did not give evidence.
• Massive deletions and content change.[25] No explanation or consensus.
• User completely removes a Chicago Tribune quote[26]
• In the course of removing cited criticism Vivaldi wrote "Originally I tried to discuss your edits as the work of some "editors", but now I am convinced that you alone are on a single-minded mission to sully the reputation of Hyles based on the unproven allegations of a couple of do-nothing malcontents."[27]
• Vivaldi wrote "You have been labeled biased by numerous people besides myself and Pooua," and when asked for the names of three people the user never replied again to this section.[28]
• User POV is very clear. Such as the addition that 20,000 attend this church EVERY Sunday. Well, the town is only 80,000 people and according to the church's "unofficial webpage" it is only 3,000. I fixed this accordingly.[29]

First Baptist Church of Hammond

• User's edit summary claims "Cleaned up some of the biased edits" but removed "unaccredited" and removed cited controversy about a blind man being banned from the church. No reason left on the talk.
• User said he was moving a list of names to a "proper section." However, the edit[30] removed "unaccredited" and moved a list of names in the middle on the hiding the criticism section.
• User removed "unaccredited" and criticism[31].
• User added in uncited slander of person cited as critical of the church.[32]
• Without reason or explanation criticism removed[33]
• Criticism removed again without reason[34]
• Again with still no reason left on the talk.[35]
• On the talk page, user talks about removing a newspaper cited testimony of a convicted child molestor being accused in court of molesting children at the church, includes two girls, a church worker, and a church security guard.[36]
• Also on the talk page user tried to campaign to merge, ie make a Tv news report, critical of the church disappear. I pointed this out.[37]

Jack Schaap

• Schaap is the "president" of a unaccredited school started by his father in law. Vivaldi removed the explanation that the college is unaccredited without any edit summary or comment on the talk.[38]
• In this edit the user removes, without commentary, the wiki link to school accreditation.[39]

Hyles-Anderson College

• Various removals of information and a POV edit on accreditation.[40] No explanation or consensus to remove news reports involving the church/ school/ and president.
• More deletions.[41]
• More deletions, no discussion, explanation, or compromise.[42]
• Edit summary claims "Improved the article. The partially-wooded lake is not part of "history"."[43], but more deletions including the removal of external links containing criticism.
• User completely removed the mention of a 1993 news report about the school[44]. Edit also revert a cleaned up version of the citations.[45]

Modifying other user's talk pages

User removes a welcome message so that his warning is more visible. [46]

Uncivility

• User makes personal attacks and insist that his comments are not personal attacks.

  "You intent is to try to fool people. It isn't a personal attack, it is a statement of fact. " [47]. See [48] for more reference.

  "dont play stupid..." [49]

  "The statement that 'If you are really are stupid or lack common sense in then I am deeply sorry' was not an apology." [50]

  "What are smoking?" [51],[52]

  "...you are clearly out of touch..." [53]

  "As long as you continue with the mistaken assumption..." [54]

  "I thought I was argueing with someone with at least a little common sense."[55]

  "If you are really are stupid or lack common sense in then I am deeply sorry."[56]

Since the RfC was opened

• User removed "unaccredited" again, and moved criticism from the criticism into the main body and added in full paragraphs criticizing the article's subject shifting violating NPOV and Wikipedia:Criticism. All criticism comes from one article.[57]
• User changed the citation method and removed a newspaper invovling the school's president and three former students.[58] Including one with a rape charge later dropped.
• User removed the unaccredited template that states the legality of unaccredited degrees.[59]
• In the edits above the user also removed, without comment, all external links that had criticism.
• Vivaldi edit's[60], revert, removed press criticism liking Hyles to Jim Jones. Yet, the edit summary claimed, "Version by Arbustoo is not as good. Why would you take out the fact that the Chief of Police Detectives said there was no investigation Arbustoo? Isn't that important?" However, my version[61] notes "Capt. Bill Conner was quoted in the Tribune saying that, "There is no investigation of the First Baptist Church of Hammond or Jack Hyles". Also it should be noted in another article a police officer mentioned the investigation continued.
• User continues to removed and revert[62], "claiming Hyles' comments are allowed," thereby reverting large copy edits of a newspaper article to change the POV of the article and bolding certain sections.
• On May 20, 2006 the user marked edits as "minor" and reverted without comment the whole page.[63] This removed the correction of sources and removed elements of a newsreport.
• Vivaldi added the sentence: "Hyles completed his college education at East Texas Baptist College, which is fully accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools." Another user sourced this claim that the school was unaccredited when the subject attended.[64] Vivaldi removed the whole mention and source without explanation.[65]
• User removed it again.[66]
• And again.[67]
• May 25, 2006 User removed the wikipedia template for unaccredited schools calling it redudant after this had been reinserted by others.[68]
• May 25, 2006 WITHOUT ANY EDIT SUMMARY OR COMMENT user changes paragraph stucture and adds two paragraphs changing the POV of the section.[69]

Applicable policies and guidelines

Applicable policies

1. WP:CIVIL
2. WP:HAR
3. WP:NPA
4. WP:NOT (a battleground )
5. WP:NPOV
6. WP:NPA
7. WP:V

Applicable guidelines

1. WP:AGF
2. WP:CON
3. WP:POINT
4. Wikipedia:External links
5. Wikipedia:Criticism
6. WP:RS

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

1. On the user's (now) archived talk page.[70] User claims "You are on a one-man mission to destroy the reputation of Jack Hyles based on the unproven allegations of a couple of do-nothings," "LOL. What are you smoking?" "LOL. You really must be joking," "Or is that how logic works on your planet?"
2. "Arbusto, are you high on drugs right now?;" "I suggest you go to bed and wake up with a clear head before you embarrass yourself anymore tonight;" [71]
3. Asking for proof that Christianity Today is a fundamentalist sources was never answer and proof that Nischik's work was self-published was not offered.[72]
4. Tried to get criticism put in a criticism section[73] user refused and kept reverting.
5. See the talks for more evidence of failing to resolve the dispute.
6. After an adminstrator said "please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future," Vivaldi responded "Each of the changes I made and the reasons for them are fully hashed out on the talk page and in the edit summaries."[74] As the evidence above indicates, explanations and changes were not "hashed" out.
7. Addressed the uncommented removal of a news program comparing Hyles to Jim Jones. User responded "Don't play stupid" and does not give any reason for the commented removal.[75]

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

1. Arbusto 01:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
2. FeloniousMonk 19:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

1. Will Beback 21:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
2. El_C 02:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
3. JoshuaZ 02:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
4. FeloniousMonk 23:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
5. Guettarda 19:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
6. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
7. •Jim62sch• 21:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Users who disagree with this summary

1. The section Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Vivaldi#Modifying_other_user.27s_talk_pages should not be presented. A User's User and Discussion pages are his own to edit as he wishes to edit them with very little exception. The complaint which User:Arbustoo presents is not one of them. Terryeo 11:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Response

This RfC was deleted by an admin because the required 2 people did not certify that they had tried and failed to resolve the dispute with the 48 hour time frame required for an RfC. FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs) has recently left 2 messages on talk pages that I responded to -- and now he says that he has "tried and failed" to resolve a dispute with me. This is patently unfair. On June 2, 2006 Felonious signed the section of this RfC admitting that he had not "tried and failed to resolve the dispute" -- but then after discovering that JoshuaZ deleted this RfC because of a lack of basis -- Felonious left a comment on two talk pages and then when I responded to his comments -- he claimed that was enough to show that he had "tried and failed" to resolve this dispute and he unfairly and innapproptiately undeleted this RfC that was properly deleted by JoshuaZ (talk · contribs).

In the section above titled, Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute -- not one single diff demonstrates that FeloniousMonk has tried and failed to resolve any dispute with me. However the rules for the RfC clearly say at the top: "The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts"

The rules for filing user conduct RfCs state that "The evidence (of trying and failing to resolve a dispute), preferably in the form of diffs, should not simply show the dispute itself, but should show attempts to find a resolution or compromise." Felonious Monk only left 1 message on my talk page, which I responded to at great length. He did not attempt to find a resolution or to seek a compromise. "Repetitive, burdensome and unwarranted filing of meritless RfCs is an abuse of the Wikipedia dispute resolution process. RfC is not a venue for personal attack."

If FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · logs) would read the dispute resolution process he would see a section that says: "Failure to pursue discussion in good faith shows that you are trying to escalate the dispute instead of resolving it. This will make people less sympathetic to your position and may prevent you from effectively using later stages in dispute resolution. In contrast, sustained discussion and serious negotiation between the parties, even if not immediately successful, shows that you are interested in finding a solution that fits within Wikipedia policies."

FeloniousMonk did not ever seek to negotiate or compromise with me at all. He left one comment on my talk page that bordered on being uncivil and I responded to it in good faith and provided evidence demonstrating exactly why his statements about me were untrue. I'm not sure if FM was lying or if he was just ignorant of the facts, but he did state untruths on my talk page. He accused me of not contributing to the wikipedia asserting that I only seek to delete, merge, or whitewash -- when there is a clear history showing that I have made numerous contributions to many articles on Wikipedia. In fact, the current Preying from the Pulpit article is probably mostly my own contribution. The article on Jack Hyles is probably a majority completed by me as well. I made lots of contributions to the First Baptist Church of Hammond article. I made lots of contributions to the Hyles-Anderson College article. I'd guess that at least 50% of the information in all of the articles was added by me. I'd guess that 95% of the information about the background and history of these topics was inserted by me. So for Felonious to assert that I have not contributed reeks of incivility. I've spent hours and hours researching and writing these articles -- while Felonious has done nothing at all to contribute to them. He left two messages on talk pages in the last week -- and nothing else. How hypocritical for him to assert that I don't contribute.

I originally had a detailed response to each of the allegations listed above, but I am removing them now. I will repost my response to the claims above on the talk page of this RfC. If you want to see my detailed response to the above allegations, then please see the talk page for this RfC.

This RfC was deleted by an admin - JoshuaZ (talk · contribs) -- because he agreed with me that the basis for the dispute was not certified by 2 people within the 48 hour timeframe required by an RfC. In order for an RfC to continue, 2 people must certify it within 48 hours that they had tried and failed to resolve a specific issue. This was not done.

JoshuaZ deleted this RfC -- and he is an admin that originally certified that he had "tried and failed" to resolve the dispute with me. JoshuaZ admitted that he had not tried to resolve this dispute and deleted this RfC.

FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · count) has left one comment on a my talk page a few days ago and on the talk page of Preying from the Pulpit. I responded to his comments on the talk pages -- and now FeloniousMonk has innappropriately and unfairly reopened this RfC that was closed by an administrator. FeloniousMonk has not ever "tried and failed" to resolve a dispute with me. He left exactly two messages on talk pages, that I have responded to -- but I haven't made any changes to the actual articles since FeloniousMonk left his comments. Surely I am allowed to have my own opinions and support them with evidence on talk pages, right? How can the fact that I am willing to participate in discussion be used against me? I want the consensus viewpoint to be presented -- but until very recently -- only one editor was actively disagreeing with me, while numerous editors disagreed with Arbustoo on the talk pages. I am not a mind reader. FeloniousMonk has made zero edits or contributions to the Jack Hyles articles that I can remember and I certainly haven't seen him involved in any discussions about these articles -- and certainly he didn't contribute within the 48 hour period after the RfC was created.

I believe FeloniousMonk made his comment to my talk page and the Preying from the Pulpit talk page for the sole purpose of being able to say that he has "tried and failed" to resolve a dispute with me. This is unfair. Especially since the RfC had gone over 2 weeks with only one person being able to certify the basis.

Am I not allowed to have an opinion on talk pages? Why is defending my position on a talk page now used against me?

In closing, all I would like to say is that I want Wikipedia to become a better place. I am working very hard to make sure that the policies of WP:V and WP:NPOV are being followed -- as well as the other guidelines and policies of Wikipedia. I encourage other people to review the edit history of Arbustoo (talk · contribs · count) in the articles: Jack Hyles, Hyles-Anderson College, First Baptist Church of Hammond, and Preying from the Pulpit. Can you find any edits where Arbustoo has made that are not critical of these topics? Has he tried at all to present the information in a neutral manner? Has he tried at all to present the background and history of these topics? Has he included any of the refutations, rebuttals, or any other material that mitigates his biased viewpoint that Hyles is the most evil person on earth?

I want relevant criticism of Hyles and FCBH to be in these articles -- but Wikipedia should not be used as a forum for unsubstantiated sensational claims. Hyles was never charged with a crime in his entire life -- and there have been no independent sources that have even accused Hyles of any misdeeds at all. But these articles made it seem like Hyles was running a school that taught people how to molest children and that he supported and encouraged molestation. That is completely untrue and unfair.

Vivaldi (talk) 09:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs) has now violated the rule that editors should not edit more than one section of an RfC. It says right at the top of this thing: "Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse." FeloniousMonk has his own section that he has certified for him to present his viewpoints. It is inappropriate that he start up a new section under "Outside Views" when he is now certifying that he is a participant in the dispute. Vivaldi (talk) 19:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

1. Pooua 05:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary:

Outside view of Pooua

I began editing the pages related to Jack Hyles a few months ago, after I discovered the outrageous, inflammatory and heavily biased statements on the page. Although several of the people guilty of producing such a dreadful article have signed this RfC against Vivaldi, one user far and away fought to cheapen the pages even farther. That user is Arbusto (also known as Arbustoo). He has exploited several resources, both on Wikipedia and off, in his attempts to defame or even slander Jack Hyles and associated ministries. Though I did my best to oppose his efforts, I was too new to Wikipedia to know how disputes are handled. Fortunately, Vivaldi noticed the condition of the Jack Hyles pages, and chose to assist in researching and re-writing them. He has performed heroically and greatly improved the quality of the Jack Hyles page, despite Arbusto's bullying tactics. He has been heavily involved in the discussion pages of the related articles. All of this, despite the fact that, as he tells us, he has no attachment with Jack Hyles in any way. He simply wants to improve the quality of Wikipedia's articles. I have seen that he has done so, in contrast to Arbusto's constant attempts to spare nothing to sling derogatory statements against Jack Hyles.

I recall that at some time over the last 3 months, I have seen the name FeloniusMonk somewhere, but I cannot recall now where I saw it. He never posted a reply to any discussion in which I was engaged. I have no idea why he has suddenly shown up now. Pooua 06:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Vivaldi (talk) 06:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
2. User:Terryeo I agree. In a church of 1000s, over a period of years, a small handful of inflammatory incidents should not be presented in an article as a major portion of the article. Terryeo 21:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Outside view of Hipocrite

Wikilawyering is wrong.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

   Asked to clarify, I will. I did no research into this situation whatever, except to see that the response section included the following - 10 paragraphs discussing how the RFC is poorly certified, then 1 paragraph of meaningless snark, then two paragraphs of platitudes. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Ehheh 17:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
3. FeloniousMonk 18:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
4. His latest attempts to remove FM's sections are not just Wikilawyering, they are also misinterpretations of the rules. Guettarda 19:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
5. Also per Guettarda. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
6. Per Guettarda and KC •Jim62sch• 21:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikilawyering is wrong

"Wikilawyering is wrong" is not an issue in a Request for Comment. User:Hipocrite states it is wrong and asks for endorcement of his statement. The rightness or the wrongness of wikilawyering should be taken up on policy and guideline pages. This page is not the place to discuss, endorce or deny the rightness or wrongness of wikilawyering. This page could discuss whether it is being done or not. This page could present instances of false wikilawyering or possibly misleading wikilawyering or convoluted wikilawyering leading to confusion but this page is not the place to discuss the rightness or the wrongness of Wikilawyering. If User:hipocrite views this Rfc as being poorly presented then he should say so, if he sees an outness, then he should say so. He implies there is some Wikilawyering going on but doesn't address it directly, instead he uses the broad, general statement, "Wikilawyering is wrong" and requests endorcement of this tertiary issue. If his statement were endorced it could mean that no editor could ever quote a policy or a guideline on a discussion page but that he would be accused of Wikilayering and that obviously would not be right.Terryeo 21:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

A bit to litteral with the meaning of "wrong", dude. How about, "Vivavldi is engaging in wikilawyering because he knows he wrong and is trying to save his bacon by deflection"? A little long but to the point. •Jim62sch• 21:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

View by FeloniousMonk

After reading Pooua's viewpoint above, I took a look at the articles Vivaldi has been active on, and there's a clear pattern that emerges. Vivaldi has been focusing on article's that were heavily edited by Arbustoo, removing or weakening any criticisms found therein: First Baptist Church of Hammond, Bill Gothard, Preying from the Pulpit, Jack Hyles, Hyles-Anderson College, Hyles-Anderson College, East Texas Baptist University, Jack Schaap. This comes very close to wikistalking. There are just too many articles where Abustoo had previously been contributing where Vivaldi has showed up and gutted criticisms for it to be just a coincidence. Vivaldi's pattern here establishes the foundation of the allegation that he's conducting a POV campaign, and the fact that he has remained active in doing so during the course of this RFC compounds the allegation that it is indeed a campaign. Campaining is not acceptable behavior.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. FeloniousMonk 16:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
2. Guettarda 19:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
3. •Jim62sch• 21:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.