Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/List of screw corvettes of Germany

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 00:02, 9 April 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list

List of screw corvettes of Germany

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk)

List of screw corvettes of Germany (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Another list of ships, this one covers the screw corvettes built by the Prussian and German navies between the 1860s and 1880s - these ships were generally used to protect German economic interests abroad and later German colonies, as well as to train naval cadets on long-distance cruises. Some of the earlier ships also saw action during the wars of German unification, Nymphe notably at the Battle of Jasmund in 1864. The list is the capstone for this topic that I assembled over the last year and a half or so. Thanks to all who take the time to review the list in preparation for a run at FLC. Parsecboy (talk) 18:08, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Image review

• File:The_three_naval_training_ships,_Stosch,_Stein_and_Gneisenau_under_full_sail.png: possible to provide a translation of the source note on the image description page?
  • Added
• File:Seegefecht_bei_Jasmund.jpg needs a US PD tag
  • Hmm, that might need to go - we don't have a date for the painting and I can't find anything on it
• File:Korvette_SMS_Ariadne_1871_(IZ_57-288)_-_no_text.jpg: per the EU tag, "reasonable evidence" of the author's anonymity should be added to the image description
  • I'm going back and forth on this - yes, by the letter of the law, we need that information (and the Illustrirte Zeitung sometimes did credit illustrators), but on the other hand, the probability that someone actively working in 1871 still being alive in 1949 approaches zero (so even if we knew who it was, they were likely long dead). If you feel strongly about it, I can move it to en.wiki, since it is clearly PD in the US.
• File:SMS_Prinz_Adalbert_NH_88764.tif: when/where was this first published?
  • Unknown, but the NHHC asserts that photographs in its collection are in the PD - the photo was either taken or acquired commercially by a naval attache at the time.
• File:S.M._Schulschiff_Stein.JPG: what is the copyright status of the original work? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:36, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
  • The book was published in 1904 - have updated the ref to make that clearer. I don't know the artist for certain, but I'd wager it's Hugo Graf, who did several similar lithographs in Deutschland zur See. Parsecboy (talk) 17:05, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66

• No DABs, no external links
• The French government again intervened and tried to block them from being transferred to the Prussian fleet, since it was also actively engaged in a conflict, but Bismarck negotiated their transfer before their armament was installed, and with Victoria, the additional step of sailing the ship to the Netherlands under French flag was also taken. So the government tried to override the Emperor? WTF? BTW, this isn't even mentioned in the Augusta-class article, where I'd expect more thorough coverage.
  • No, Louis's only involvement was to block the sale to the Confederacy - I'll add it to the class article, and I've clarified it here.
• secondary roles, including training ships, barracks ships, and fisheries protection Perhaps "training, accommodation and fisheries protection duties"? Ships in this bit seems kinda redundant since we're talking about roles.
  • Works for me
• returned to barracks ship duties awkward
  • Reworded
• Nicely done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:35, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks Sturm. Parsecboy (talk) 18:24, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

CommentsSupport by PM

This list is in great shape, and seems comprehensive. I have a few comments:

• In the lead, could it be added what type(s) of vessel replaced roles played by the screw corvettes?
  • Good idea
• South America doesn't appear to have been linked anywhere. Although it may be such common knowledge as to not need linking. China and Chile likewise.
  • I think general advice is not to link to generic countries (unless it's a country that no longer exists) and coincidentally, the examples of things not to link at MOS:OVERLINK includes South America
• suggest adding a comma after charts in "navigational charts and scientific experiments"
  • I don't think one is necessary here - there are only two things, the surveys and the experiments - I suppose I could flip the order to improve the flow, though.
• there is some tension between them being corvettes and being described as cruisers and part of the cruiser fleet at various points. "Cruising fleet" perhaps?
  • Done
• Blucher apparently did not carry 15 cm guns, so I suggest a more granular approach to listing the armament of the Bismarck class.
  • Good point
• suggest "including as training ships and barracks ships, and for fisheries protection"
  • See if how I reworded it for Sturm above works
• the isbns are inconsistently hyphenated.
  • All fixed
• the sources are all reliable and of high quality, what you would expect for German ships of this vintage.

That's me done. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:10, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, PM. Parsecboy (talk) 19:27, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

No prob. Supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:34, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

CommentsSupport by CPA-5

I'll do this one this evening CET. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 07:40, 28 March 2019 (UTC) Okay I am back, let me see.

• Unlink Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, Central America, Adriatic Sea, Gulf of Aden, United States, East Asia, Haiti and Togo because of MOS:OVERLINK.
  • Delinked the first two, United States, and Haiti, but the rest don't run afoul of OVERLINK, in my opinion

• @Parsecboy: Links which are everyday used of names or terms shouldn't be linked because the reader know already some informations about the name/term like what MOS:OVERLINK says "This generally includes "major" examples of: geographic features" Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:18, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

• Right, but what we're disagreeing on here is whether things like the Adriatic, Gulf of Aden, and Togoland count as "major" geographic features that most readers will know. Having seen too many videos of clueless Americans who couldn't find Iraq on a map during the Iraq War, for instance, I tend to take a generous approach to links ;) Parsecboy (talk) 15:30, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

• @Parsecboy: You won that round. But I still think the Atlantic and the Pacific Oceans, Central America and East Asia shouldn't be linked. Cheers. ;p CPA-5 (talk) 18:13, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

• I already did remove the links to the oceans, but I still think Central America and East Asia are useful. Parsecboy (talk) 11:37, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

• @Parsecboy: Please don't tell me that there are many clueless Americans who don't know where East Asia and Central America lies?

• It's not so much "where" as what those terms constitute - for instance, what's included in East Asia and what's excluded? Parsecboy (talk) 12:47, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

• Fair enough. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:21, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

• "16.0 mph" the nought isn't necessary.
  • No, but it can't be removed without forcing the other converted figure to round up or down
• "25.0 km/h" same as above.
  • Same as above
• As a result, the ships were largely useless as warships apart from against similarly dated designs.[42][27] Maybe switch the 27 and 42 citations?
  • Done
• In the Charlotte section "1 shaft, 2 marine steam engines, 13.5 knots (25.0 km/h; 15.5 mph)" the 25 km/h and the 15.5 mph are not necessary both of them are used previously.
  • Removed
• "12.0 mph" same as above no nought.
  • Same as above

That's everything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks CPA. Parsecboy (talk) 14:19, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

G'day CPA-5 can you confirm if you are supporting, unless something is outstanding? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:47, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

• Hello Peacemaker67 of course I will confirm whether I am supporting or not. But I'm still waiting for PB's reply because we were talking about MOS:OVERLINK. I think the links of the Atlantic and the Pacific Oceans, Central America and East Asia shouldn't be linked because most people know some informations about those links. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 07:56, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Comments & support by Pendright

Thanks for an interesting piece on warships of another time. My comments deal, primarily, with aspects not otherwise stressed, but equally important at the next level. Pendright (talk) 07:00, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Lead:

• ... twenty three ships of the type were built,...

Chicago Manusl of Style suggests that two-word numbers from twenyt-one to ninty-nine be hyphenated. Consider!

Done

• These voyages were aimed at protecting Prussian and later German nationals abroad, German economic interests, and later, the construction and patrolling of the German colonial empire.

Why is a comma necessary after the second "and later"?

It probably isn't

Nympole Class:

• The two Nymphe-class corvettes were ordered in 1861 in the context of rising tensions with Denmark over the Schleswig-Holstein Question;

Would because suffice for "in the context", since we alreay know the circumsatnces.

How about "in response to"?

Leipzig class:

• In 1907, she was sold for scrap; by that time, Leipzig too had been reduced to a barracks ship and stationary training hulk in 1895, though she survived until 1919, when she sank accidentally.

• Removing the commas after 1907 and time would seen to read smoomther, consider?

• I think those commas are necessary there

The comma after 1907, as you know, is optional and, therefore, not required - but It is your choice to make. Though, I am still puzzled by the comma following the phrase - by that time. Can you help me out here? Pendright (talk) 00:44, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

• If barracks ship has not been linked, consider linking.

• It's already linked

Bismarck class:

• Increased demands on the fleet to protect German overseas economic interests in the wake of the Franco-Prussian War necessitated the construction of new corvettes to shoulder the burden.

The sentence contains two independent clauses. By rule, a conjunction or a semicolon should link them together. In this case, consider a semicolon after "the Franco-Prussian War".

No, that wouldn't be right there - it's the "increased demands" that "necessitated"

I agree. However, your example demonstrats that "in the wake of the Franco-Prussian War" is not essential to the meaning of the sentence in which case commas should set the phrase off as supplemental information. Pendright (talk) 00:55, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

• In addition, the vessels that had been acquired under the initial fleet plans had begun to be worn out by the 1870s, making the acquisition of new vessels even more important.

... "had begun to be worn out by the 1870s," ... Seems awkward?

See if how I reworded it reads any better

Better: Pendright (talk) 01:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

• Since steam engines were still not reliable enough to be the only source of motive power, full ship rigs were retained.

Is "full ships rigs" worthy of linking?

It's already linked earlier

Carola class:

• The Carola class was ordered shortly after the Bismarck class as part of the same program to expand and modernize the German cruising fleet.

Consider adding a "comma" before the conjunction as.

I don't think it's necessary here - think of it as "The class was ordered, as part of the program." - that wouldn't make sense.

Second thoughts: You’re right it doesn’t make sense. That’s because "as part of the same program" is nonessential to the meaning of the sentence, which can be read without the phrase and still not lose its essential meaning. For example:

The Carola class was ordered shortly after the Bismarck class to expand and modernize the German cruising fleet.

Nothing essential is lost, so the phrase could be ommitted or, if kept, set off by commas. Pendright (talk) 04:22, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

• On several occasions, ships of the class were badly damaged in accidents—Marie running aground off New Mecklenburg and Sophie being rammed by a merchant vessel, both in 1884, and Olga being forced ashore by a cyclone in 1889—but none of the members of the class were lost.

• Consider replacing running with ran.

• Then it wouldn't have parallel structure with the rest

• The word being is used twice here - i'm wondering

about tense?

On this one, I bow to your superior judgment. Pendright (talk) 05:46, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Done - Pendright (talk) 07:00, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Pendright - good to see you're still around! Parsecboy (talk) 15:46, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

G'day Pendright can you confirm if you have any points outstanding or whether you are supporting promotion to A-Class? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:45, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Supporting the promotin to A-class - Pendright (talk) 18:11, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Source review

All sources are properly formatted and of high-quality--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:14, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.