Talk:2004 Osama bin Laden video

I imagine sooner or later someone will edit this to ask whether this helps Bush or Kerry, and who Bin Laden wants to help - does he want Kerry because he thinks Kerry is weak, or does he want Bush because he thinks having a hardliner in the White House aids al-Qaeda recruitment?

Anyway, when we start getting into this, I hope we can keep it separated in the article from the currently completely neutral description of the video's content... Evercat 21:41, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Who can tell who he wants to help? Is he using "psychology", or "reverse psychology", or "reason"? If we've accurately summarized the tape ("Bush lies, and read for seven minutes too long on 9/11") one wonders if he's been screening Michael Moore movies... - Nunh-huh 23:43, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I was just worried about some POV being introduced into the article, but it hasn't happened. Evercat 23:46, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

At some point perhaps someone will analyze:

[1] to what extent this tape is an attempt to save face for having failed to deliver on his promises of a big terrorist event before the election [2] whether this tape was meant to air on the anniversary of 9/11 but was somehow delayed [3] how in this tape bin Ladin has "revised" his history (or more plainly, lied), claiming he first conceived of an attack on the World Trade Center in response to 1982 attacks in Lebanon, when in fact bin Ladin was not involved with al-Queda before 1986/8 in Afghanistan, did not really consider attacking the U.S. until U.S. trooups were deployed in Saudi Arabia in 1990, and did not associate his efforts with the Lebanon/Israel conflict until after that. - Nunh-huh 01:14, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Anybody gotten ahold of a translated transcript of the whole video message? I want to read it by myself without any (annoying) journalist comments. Mastgrr 22:22, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The closest I've seen is excerpts from the BBC that have been added.

What's the source on the "18 minutes" claim? I seem to recall an Al Jazeera guy saying to the BBC it was about 14 minutes, but had been edited (by Al Jazeera)... Evercat 22:36, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

According to "http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/10/29/ladin/index.html" wire story, 'In the last videotape, issued Sept. 10, 2003, bin Laden is seen walking through rocky terrain with his top deputy Ayman al-Zawahri, both carrying automatic rifles. In a taped message issued at the same time, bin Laden praises the "great damage to the enemy" on Sept. 11 and mentions five hijackers by name. In December 2001, the Pentagon released a videotape in which bin Laden is shown at a dinner with associates in Afghanistan on Nov. 9, 2001, saying the destruction of the Sept. 11 attacks exceeded even his "optimistic" calculations.' In accordance, I've removed the sentence claiming this is the first video released since 9/11/2001. --Antiframe 22:49, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See Also section

It looks like the section was fixed in the time it took me to edit the page. However, it was very strong anti-Bush, with a LOT of raving against Bush/Blair.

What are you apologists for the war criminal/master terrorist Bush?

Well I'm not, but this is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox. Evercat 18:32, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

An "encylopedia" that is happy to propogate Bush distortions and wicked lies as facts?

What Bush distortions do we print "as fact"? Evercat 18:43, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What you call "RAVINGS" are established facts, put forward by KOFI ANNAN of the UN that the war against Iraq WAS ILLEGAL and by the LANCET a respected British Journal that 100,000 Iraqi's have been massacred by BUSH/BLAIR war against Iraq. When this encylopedia talks about terrorism and Bin Laden these facts have to be stated.

What Kofi Annan has said is indeed mentioned at 2003 Invasion of Iraq, where it's relevant. Evercat 18:43, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is also relevant here in relation to AL-QAIDA and Bin Laden... Bush used the excuse of the twin towers attack as a pretext for invading Iraq.

If the UN's view is not relevant here then it is equally no more relevant to quote that war criminal/terrorist BUSH here because he has his OWN set of pages (which Wikipedia has locked as it is afraid of seeking the truth!).

The deaths of 100,000 Iraqi's under the pretext of attacking AL-QAIDA is VERY RELEVANT here.

Of course they're not; this is an article about a videotape. Evercat 18:49, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Attribute Translation

The translation should be properly attributed, so the validity of the source can be judged by the reader. This segment is from Al Jazeera I think. If someone could find the translator, or at least find proper wiki in-text citation...? —Daelin 22:05, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First Sentence

I changed the first sentence from bin Laden claiming responsibility for September 11th attacks to his condemnation of Bush's response and reasoning for the attack. I think that much better represents the video's content.

The fact that he admits responsibility is a huge deal. I'm putting it back. VeryVerily 22:24, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The message is principally bin Laden criticizing Bush and explaining motivation for the attacks. Bin Laden spends four paragraphs on Lebanon. And speaking of Bush, bin Laden alleges nepotism, fraud, dictatorship, etc. To say that the most important thing about this article is that the man the entire Western press has considered responsibile for the September 11th attacks has said he's responsible for it is ridiculous and an American POV reading into what you want rather than independent representation of the author's text. (119's text, my mistake not being logged in). --119 22:44, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)