Talk:List of topics characterized as pseudoscience

The aquatic ape hypothesis is not anywhere near as fringe as many of the other theories listed here. It is not generally accepted, sure, but it is no longer considered bunk. It has serious science behind it, and a growing number of biologists consider it seriously plausible. RK 00:58 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Okay. Do you agree with my inclusion of Plasma cosmology? If so, put this page on your watchlist and watch out for any edits by Reddi. -- Tim Starling 02:44 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Plasma Cosmology is a protoscience that is being investigated by research around the globe. Is Magnetohydrodynamics fringe? In institutions such as Los Alamos National Labrtory and thier groups [which is one of the better scientific research institutes in north America], Plasma cosmology is being developed.

Are these fringe institutions?

* Plasma Physics and Nonlinear Dynamics Group, Federal University of Parana, Brazil

* Institute of Applied Physics, Russian Academy of Sciences Nizhny Novgorod, Russia

* ETHZ Plasma and Radio Astrophysics Group, Switzerland

* Plasma Physics Group, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine London, United Kingdom

* Astronomy Department (J. Arons), University of California at Berkeley

* Computational plasma physics group, Dept of Physics and Astronomy UCLA, Los Angeles, California

* Astronomy Department (R. Lovelace), Cornell University, Ithaca, New York

* Center for Space Research and Plasma Science & Fusion Center, MIT

* Graduate Program in Plasma Physics, Princeton University [which has a graduate program in plasma astrophysics]

They are all investigating plasma cosmological research.Or is it all speculation?

Is it consisting of hanging threads thought? or is it just an outside the conventional boundary of science? Hannes Alfven , Nikola Tesla, Kristian Birkeland, David Bohm, and Max Born are "Fringe" Physicists? Just wondering ... reddi 15:15 17 Jul 2003 (UTC) more later ....

You waste my time, Reddi, forcing me to research things like that. That LANL link is just Anthony Lee Peratt's personal web space. As far as I could see, there's no mention of plasma cosmology on the official plasma physics group home page. I haven't looked up all those other institutions, but judging by the names they're all just plasma physics groups, not plasma cosmology. Now excuse me while I go and do something useful. -- Tim Starling 00:41 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

OK, I nvr wanted you to "waste" your time .... I hope u get your stuff done. It's nice that you disparage things and then don't [or can't] answer some questions. I was merely inquisitive on the topics .... but noone has answered my questions. Hmmm ... mabey no answer will come forth from anyone. I just wanna know the parameters to be included or excluded here ... BTW, what do you think plasma physics groups extend into [if you take the next logical steps in theory]? And Magnetohydrodynamics isn't fringe ... it's accepted theory ... [ps. Astrophysics and cosmology are related .... they are kinda interdependent from what I can tell ... but mabey I'm wrong] ... reddi 01:44 18 Jul 2003 (UTC) "It is not as uncommon ... [some to] accept the reality of phenomena that are not yet understood, as it is very common for physicists to disbelieve the reality of phenomena that seem to contradict contemporary beliefs of physics " - Bauer

"I just wanna know the parameters to be included or excluded here..." I'm not sure exactly, I'm kind of making it up as I go along. It will list "speculative, fringe or otherwise disregarded theories," but the exact interpretation of that phrase is subject to the opinion of the Wikipedian community. As a rule of thumb, anything which denies the validity of:

The Big Bang
The old age of the Earth
Relativity
Quantum mechanics

will almost certainly be listed here. I don't mean to list theories which attempt to correct the flaws with QM and GR which are well-known to the mainstream physics community, for example superstring theory. I mean theories which reject the experimental results in favour of the mainstream theories as being spurious.

As for MHD -- I know it's not a fringe theory. You listed that one, remember? I listed rotating magnetic field because there seems to be some sort of mythology attached to it, in the form of the "rotating magnetic field model". Rotating magnetic fields are not speculative, but I suspect this "model" is. I don't know the full story yet, but the way it is listed at the moment is quite appropriate.

This page may seem to you to be rejecting or talking down the theories listed. I didn't mean to imply that these theories are incorrect. Like you say, physicists "disbelieve the reality of phenomena that seem to contradict contemporary beliefs of physics". Consider this page to be a catalogue of realities which are disbelieved by mainstream scientists. To say a theory is "fringe" is not a judgement on its accuracy, it's just a judgement on the attitude of the mainstream scientific community towards it. -- Tim Starling 02:18 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"I'm not sure exactly, I'm kind of making it up as I go along." Hmmm .... mabey you should slap a disclaimer tag of some sort at the top of this page then ... as it's definitely amorphous to what is to be includeed here or not.

Anything which denies the validity of The Big Bang? So that new extrasolar planet in the news the other day is fringe? ... The old age of the Earth? how old is old [the current age theories may really be young to what it really is ... mabey not]? ... Relativity? World views don't need to relativity ... you can rely on a different basis and be ok [see Godel [sp?] and the incompleteness theorum ... thankfully there is duality] ... Quantum mechanics? QM is just one set of theories ... there are others .... but mabey some of QM could be listed here too ....

"I mean theories which reject the experimental results in favour of the mainstream theories as being spurious" ... how does Plasma cosmology do that? Matter o' fact, plasma cosmology takes account of experimental data and phenomena of reality that is not accounted for in the mainstream .... how does 'Quaternion physics do that? ... I don't know alot about it ... and there isn't a listing on it .... so mabey you could list a note on them ... and, how does Luminiferous aether do that? Aether is an alternative theory ... discounted by some ... accounted by others [even michealson and morley still accepted it after thier so much touted experiment] .... PLEASE make a note to the side of each of these entries ... mabey explaining them abit and a lil on why they are listed ... information is always good, especially on subjective material.

As for MHD ... Yea I listed that one ... to POINT OUT that it's not a fringe .... there isn't "some sort of mythology" attached to it, I believe that may be your POV .... a "model" just a thought construct; ie., a way to think of things .... the way it is listed here at the moment is questionable IMO, as it conveys to me [and probably to others that see the page] that any of these listed views are in error of being correct .... [BTW, I recently discoveed the article Dynamo theory article ... it's the same thing ... so I thinkin of consolidating it with that one when i get time ... the RMF model is the DT]

"This page may seem to you to be rejecting or talking down the theories listed." Yes ... on 1st impression, it did ... and probably does to alot of readers that see it .... that's probably reason enough to put a disclaimer of some sort here [like a "dispute" tag] .... "To say a theory is 'fringe' is a judgement on the attitude of the mainstream scientific community towards it"? That is highly subjective ... who's the spokesman for the mainstream? ... this article needs a dispute tag, it'd help it IMO ....

... the more i read of this article ... it's just a POV article it try to reaffirm a POV and discount other NPOV information ... reddi 22:01 18 Jul 2003 (UTC) more later ...

How does plasma cosomology deny one of the listed theories? If you read a little closer, you would have noticed that I anticipated this attack. I said that theories which deny one of the mainstream theories will be listed, I didn't say anything about theories which don't deny the mainstream theories. Not in that sentence, anyway.

"That is highly subjective ... who's the spokesman for the mainstream?" It's not subjective, because if worst comes to worst, we can take a poll. But luckily, we have a decent number of mainstream physicists and other scientists on Wikipedia, and those people have a fairly good idea of the attitude of their peers towards these theories. I'm relying on the input of experts.

Assessing the opinion of the mainstream community is an important part of NPOV policy.

"there isn't 'some sort of mythology' attached to it, I believe that may be your POV". It's my intuition, nothing more. I've said I don't understand the "rotating magnetic field model", so I can't be sure what's going on. I'm hoping you'll just tell me, but otherwise I'll probably work it out eventually. But if you must know, my suspicions were twigged by statements like:

"Plasma cosmology states that dynamically coupled rotating magnetic fields produced the universe observed today."
[An analogy for the way the aether transmits influences is] one vortex ring (related to the rotating magnetic field)
In Strasbourg, Tesla built the induction motor which was experimental proof of the rotating magnetic field model.

The last one is particularly interesting. The main thing I'm missing is: what is the model? Rotating magnetic fields are a phenomenon, not a model. You don't prove a phenomenon, so what is there to this "model" besides the simple existence of rotating magnetic fields? -- Tim Starling 08:57 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

--

"I anticipated this" ... yep ... as I stated before, an article to futher a POV.

"I didn't say anything about theories which don't deny the mainstream theories. Not in that sentence, anyway." [see above]

... [BTW, it's not an attack, sorry u feel under fire .... just a series o' statements to flesh out the reasons for this article (which i really don't have a huge problem with ... just want a clarification and reasoning, other than just willey-nilly listing of topics here] ...

"deny one of the mainstream" ... hmmm but you nvr said, should that recent observation of the extrasolar planet be listed here? If correct, it's gonna deny models of cosmology ....

.... this is subjective article (as it exists now ... mabey some detail to the listed items and a bit more information on the reasons to be listed may help it become less of that) and polls are subjective [unless properly controlled ... I thought you'd know that from statisics, though].

[Clip "my consensus" is always right, no other possiblities can be right]

[Clip "my experts" are always right]

Assessing the opinion of the mainstream community is an important part of NPOV policy? hmmm .... POV is a position from where something recorded with a perspective. It's not neutral here in this article ... "It's my intuition, nothing more." ok ... thank for saying it's your POV [but not explicitly] .... mainly biased from your perspective .... I thought the whole point of NPOV is to provide information without give a hint of bais to that information [which this artcle does ... as i stated before, it gave me [and probably alot more readers that view the article] a feeling that these listed items are frameworks that are in error of something ...] ... mabey providing a bias to information is ok? mabey not .... [see NPOV]

[snip RMF model twiggin' someone]

"Plasma cosmology states that dynamically coupled rotating magnetic fields produced the universe observed today" What is hard about that? Is the english a bit advanced? hmmm ... I thought it was pretty plain language ... I don't think you can get any simpler (in the concise form) ...

[snip aether] appearantly you haven't read anything on Kelvin or his original papers ... he tried to work out the aether ... and he developed the "energy vortex" models [or theories, see below] ... [among other thing ... and helped form an early atomic models] ... this vortex theory eventually was taken by Tesla to the next level [into the RMF model].

[snip "experimental proof"]

"what is the model?" a model is a construct to think of things ... the RFM model is just a way to think of how the electromagnetic forces act throughout reality .... [go look up the synonyms of the word ... it's equilivant to: framework, pattern, theoretical account (or theory)] ... (BTW appearantly you skipped over the Dynamo theory part in my last response (which i was unaware of @ the time i created the RMF article, so i'm merging it with that as soon as I can [mabey after i post this])) ...

... "Rotating magnetic fields are a phenomenon, not a model" ... but it is a model to put observe things (ala, phenomenon) into a process to understand it [see above synonyms] ... say: "Dynamo Theory" or "Rotating Magnetic Field model", and you mean the same thing ....

[snip rest] ... more later .... reddi 15:29 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It's alright, I think I've worked it out now. -- Tim Starling 04:54 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Just want to say that I agree that Plasma cosmology should not be included among this list. It has been around since the late 1800's and has much experimental backing. It is only fringe because it is not the mainstream paradigm. But you two have already gone through all this so I don't need to add any more here. -- Ionized

It's only fringe because it's not the mainstream paradigm? That's what fringe means! Look, if you disagree with my terminology, maybe we can move this page to Theories which are not part of the mainstream paradigm because your description of plasma cosmology fits perfectly with the kind of theories I wanted to organise. I didn't call the page Theories which were invented recently and have no experimental backing did I? -- Tim Starling 04:13, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)

My word... -- Tim Starling 08:03, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)

Ok, ok. I am in no way trying to further any anger driven disputes, so please accept my apologies for intrusion. It's not that I disagree with terminology, it's that the theoretically based Big Bang is more speculative in nature than the empirically based plasma cosmology, and should be included in the list before it by that standard. I'll just state it this way, for people like me who have spent time researching plasma physics and cosmological theories in general, including their historical development, it is simply disheartening to continuously be looked upon as a quack by most. And your inclusion of plasma cosmology in the list doesnt help that any :)

I discovered Wikipedia yesterday, found the Plasma cosmology article, and right away began to correct it according to what I have studied. Ive been looking through the page history at what Reddi's first version was, and watched its development as people like Roadrunner came in with 'peer review' and transformed the article from one about plasma cosmology, to one that pushes it aside only to further expound the Big Bang. Such behavior is absurd and I hope that it is discontinued.

I plan to fully update the article over the next few months, expounding more on the actual methods and findings of plasma cosmology in general (as opposed to the current version, which until yesterday focused on Alfven's outdated model, which it seems was used only to attempt further discrediting of the plasma paradigm as a whole.) I thank Reddi for having started the article and hope that approves of my continuing contributions.

I do not expect you to change your list of speculative theories to match my preference. The list isnt that bad after all, as you havent put in things that are obviously complete quackery (such as ufo stuff or the like.) I do appreciate your note at the top about how the article may not be neutral. -- Ionized Tue, August 12th 10:15 am

Just in case you missed my meaning, my gasp above was in reference to Reddi's amusing POV rant on science being "unimaginitive and conforming" [1]. Such behaviour is unacceptable. Ionized, you might be interested in reading our NPOV policy, to see all the rules Reddi just breached. I believe scientists are the most open-minded sector of the community, but you don't see me spraying that opinion across the article namespace, do you? It's not on. Save it for your weblog, Reddi.

Ionized, welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you decide to write about plasma cosmology from a neutral point of view, as our policy demands, rather than producing more of the poorly-written advocacy that Reddi has become known for. -- Tim Starling 00:18, Aug 13, 2003 (UTC)

Thank you to all those responsible for re-wording the article. It is now much more acceptable, especially the comment that some currently accepted practices would have in the past been on this type of list. -- Ionized Tue, August 12th 6:06 pm