Talk:ABADÁ-Capoeira/Archive 2

Second Archive for July topics resolved.

Visibility

Visibility of this website is my number one priority and concern. It is difficult to find this article in Wikipedia. You either have to link to it from one of the three or four other wiki pages that it is linked to (which I am hoping we can raise that number...), or you have to spell it exactly right: this means all capital letters, the hyphen, and the accent mark over the A.

This is major. If no one can knows about this article (I didn't until a couple weeks ago), or can find it if they are trying to seek out information on ABADA, then all the work we are doing is kind of going unused. Ryt 007 (talk) 02:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Redirecting

My first proposal for a solution to this is to redirect other spellings or grammatically incorrect versions of our name, linking them to this page. This way, one can at least find this article, if they type in anything abada close in nature in Wikipedia. The redirect pages would be for a misspelling that contains ABADA (without accent mark), abada & Abada (with and without accent mark), and maybe even without the hyphen (Abada Capoeira, etc...). Ryt 007 (talk) 02:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation with the spellings: I did one disambiguation under "Abada" and you are right we need to do more. The search feature for Wiki is rather weak and ABADÁ-Capoeira only comes up under that specific spelling. It is a problem. Could we also do disambiguations for the Mestres, so that if someone searches their names that section of the article pops up? EDS4 (talk) 05:04, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I have created three redirecting pages, that I believe have solved the redirecting issue. I have also realized that the additional "ABADÁ-Capoeira" pages are in different languages, and hence are not affecting anything we do in this language of wikipedia (aka when you search for ABADÁ-Capoeira, you don't get the polish or french pages, no matter how you spell them or misspell them). The two redirect pages are ABADA-Capoeira, ABADÁ Capoeira, and ABADA Capoeira. I believe, that no matter how you misspell our group name, you will still get to this article's page.

Note: I have also cleaned up the disambiguation page Abada. It now contains a link back feature if you go to the Abadá page, so that you can get back to the disambiguation, and then you can go to ABADÁ-Capoeira. Please let me know if I have let any grammar issues here slip through the cracks. I believe my solution is bullet proof. Ryt 007 (talk) 00:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I have been noticing a hole within the redirecting process. "abada capoeira" is not redirecting to our article. Should be fixed. Shouldn't be too difficult. ABADA-Capoeira, ABADA Capoeira, and ABADÁ Capoeira are the current three redirect pages. Ryt 007 (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Just fixed the hole. I'm pretty sure there is no way to misspell ABADÁ-Capoeira in the Wikipedia search bar and not be led to our article. Unless you just type in abada, which has its own disambiguation page and further defined articles. I am considering this discussion closed. ~ Ryt 007 | ^Talk 13:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

to the above. awesome!EDS4 (talk) 00:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Google hit potential

My next proposal to solving this problem is making the article searchable in google. This for me will be much more difficult. I do not know how the google search engine works. I once heard, however, that if someone manually searches for something, and then clicks on it many times, the popularity generated by this process raises the ease of accessibility. If I really have to, I will find a way to do this. I am hoping their is an easier solution, such as making the web site of the article more google friendly or something... Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Ryt 007 (talk) 02:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Apparently bing and ask.com (two other famous search engines) have the same problem. Cannot find the website out of any of the first 5 or more pages. On Yahoo, however, our article comes up under a search of "ABADÁ-Capoeira" as the fourth page! Not sure why that is. Apparently yahoo search is no longer run by google. How they are different, I'm not sure, I am not that crazy of a techy. The search pages about this are a little too much for me to sit through and read. Will look into further. I want our name to come up on google. It is reported as handling 75% or so of all searches. That is huge for ABADÁ-Capoeira. Ryt 007 (talk) 19:17, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Google works by searching for a web site that has many sites linking to the words that you search for. So by increasing the number of sites that link to our article, one can increase the hit ranking on google, I believe. Might also be able to increase hit potential by increasing the amount of times it writes out the words "ABADA-Capoeira". Will experiment further later. Ryt 007 (talk) 16:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

AC is on the google map!!! I have great news. I am happy to report that the ABADÁ-Capoeira article is in fact searchable on google. If you type in anything relating to "abada capoeira" on google, and go to the third page, this article is the first hit on that page. It's not too high on the ratings, but it is a start. I am positive that with more work on the article, that number will get higher and higher, and then this article will be the first thing you find when you look for ABADÁ-Capoeira. Great work everyone! Ryt 007 (talk) 13:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Google hits definitely have everything to do with how many other sites link to your website. If we keep adding the ABADÁ-Capoeira article link on other sites (which has the necessity of having a lot of other Capoeira sites to put this site on), then we will be in the top ranks of a google search. Ryt 007 (talk) 14:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

ABADA article in other languages

Pages in other languages: There is no Wiki page for ABADÁ in Portuguese. This is huge! And a really exiting opportunity for us to really do something cool! Really this is more important than the English, or it should be. There is one for Camisa, but no photo, very little info. EDS4 (talk) 05:04, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I have figured out how to link the articles in other languages to our article. I just added the abada page in french. What you do is add "language code: article title" to the bottom of our article edit page (example "fr: Abadá-Capoeira" for the French page). You can now see the french page by clicking under "languages" in the sidebar on the bottom left of our article's mainspace web page. I will continue looking for the Polish and any other language articles. ~ Ryt 007 | ^Talk 13:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

A wikipedia bot just added another language. It is Czech apparently. Pretty cool though. I found the Polish article and added it. Once I am done, I am going to go to all the different pages, editing them so that each page has all of the others. Trying to promote connectivity. English will be the hub. Will use the language codes for help. ~ Ryt 007 | ^Talk 15:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it's done. All four languages have all three other links on their pages. Couldn't find anymore. I searched for Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian. We should probably create those pages. I can attempt it later on. ~ Ryt 007 | ^Talk 16:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

External links

Please be careful/limit creating links to outside sources within the text of the article. This could get the article tagged as a form of self promotion. Originally I thought it would be cool if when we cited information the school cited could get a hyperlink within the text. This got my original ABADÁ entry tagged for immediate deletion. A dangerous mistake. A wiki editor put the link for ACNYC back in the page above a large block of quoted text, I think so that readers could then see the original text themselves. I moved it up to where it first appeared above a large block of quoted text I will check other articles to see how they do this. EDS4 (talk) 05:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I added links to other schools under the links heading. I stuck to schools that were in predomin. English speaking countries as this is the English page for ABADÁ on wiki.EDS4 (talk) 04:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Non-External link to Mestre Camisa page

We need to create an article (non external), in English that is a description, possibly a translation of the current external article in portuguese, of Mestre Camisa. Ryt 007 (talk) 17:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I have created a page for Mestre Camisa. It is only a stub article: meaning that it does not have a lot of information, and still needs a lot of work, and possibly better references. I didn't really check this with anyone in AC, but I figured for now, it's not a big deal. I mostly took stuff off of our AC article, and the Camisa article in Portuguese. Feel free to improve the page, or go check it out. I'm going to create more pages on other pertinent topics as needed. If we are okay with this page, we should start linking to it, instead of the external Portuguese article. Lots of potential here. ~ Ryt 007 | ^Talk 18:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Affiliated pages

Affiliated groups, like axe capoeira, and grupo brazil, and senzala (not yet existing on wiki), need to re vamped. They are extremely lacking, and I think it is important to all Capoeiristas to uphold them. They need commons pages, references, images, wikifying, etc... Ryt 007 (talk) 17:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Hum, I personally don't want to edit other schools pages right now, if at all. I just don't want to invent territory battles on Wikipedia or give myself a whole bunch more work to do. I have a big "to do list" just for the ABADÁ page. My recommendation, only a recommendation, is: fix the ABADÁ page first (this is a big task); then get really related pages going like a Camisa page, a Camisa Roxa page; the main "capoeira" article needs a lot of help (especially with citations and refrences); and then consider other school's pages. Our history is mixed with some of those groups both in the far past and recently (1950-80's) and even now. You are right as capoeiristas we should care about what else is out there and helping them out, but we need to make sure that our contributions are welcome. I have noted that it looks like a there have been some formatting done for other schools' pages to make them better; they do look nicer. I guess, just tred with care.EDS4 (talk) 00:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Notes

I fixed the formatting of the footnotes / citations / references. It is now in accordance with Wiki policy. I believe I thought I was editing it right in the first place, but was in fact wrong. Now I know this is right.

I also added inline citations where citations are needed. These can easily be disputed with me, I went a little overboard, however I do think that a lot of these statements will be challenged by those not familiar with Capoeira, and therefore want to prevent having to fight people to prove we are right. Best way of doing that is citing everything that is even remotely verifiable by sources. I know it's a lot of work, do whatever you can. Not done yet, just started philosophy section. I followed the guidelines in accordance with the page on Wiki references policy. Ryt 007 (talk) 18:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I am going through and providing citations where you have requested them. I also found that we had put a link to ACNYC to material that was actually from New York (Edna Lima). So I took out that link and updated the link within that citation. If we want to put a link up to ACNYC in the text we can go find the approp. place to do that and do it. I haven't done it yet.

There is a small problem with this because the text contains citations from both webpages and books. The book by Bira A. has been quoted in the text so it isn't further reading, but is a refrence. I looked at other pages and they seem to call the citations from the web, "Notes," and the stuff from books, "Refrences." Sorry if I undid something you did. If we need to retitle this, that's cool. I don't know how to title it, but the Bira book is part of the works cited.EDS4 (talk) 05:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I did not realize that there are direct quotes from the text. If that is the case, then those quotes must be cited in the exact same way that the quotes for the websites were cited. However, both books and websites and any other cited works should all be a part of the "references section". As a matter of fact, the best practice is to use a combination of both to achieve the most reliable sources online and from libraries. See Wikipedia:Citing sources. Notes are generally just that, notes about what text means.

Different authors prefer different ways though. See the wikipedia policy on layout. It is possible that you could use footnotes under the "notes" section, and then reference the footnotes in references. It is your decision, you are the author and in charge of your references. I will reformat the sections, and will attempt to fix the book format. I am putting the sections back to the way they were, because currently the format and style warrants a "references" only section. Feel free to post any comments or concerns with what I'm doing. No worries. Everyone has the power to edit this article. Discuss at will.

FYI, even though you see something on one article a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean it is right. I had this same problem a couple months ago. The way to fix this is by looking at featured articles and good articles, or by looking it up on the wikipedia guidelines: Wikipedia:Citing sources and Wikipedia:Layout. Some great articles to check out are Rhee Taekwon-Do, Aikido, Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu, and Kanō Jigorō. ~ Ryt 007 | ^Talk 13:18, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I changed the sections back. Then I added the book citation to the (reflist) of references. I kind of just tagged it to the third sentence in the article, because it made sense, and I wanted to put it in the references list. Someone might have to move it around, but it belongs in the reference list. ~ Ryt 007 | ^Talk 19:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm saving the Almedia citation here and will fix it tomorrow (will go in to edit the discussion and copy and paste it back into the article). Don't have time today. Citation #3 is a citiation from the SF Chronicle. The Almeida text was and is cited in footnote style within the text I think numbers 8 and 9 or 7 and 8, as Almeida(That's how it's been since I put it in there) and then listed the book separately. The problem is that several different pages are quoted and given the format we are using for citing/the way wikipedia does citing it's hard to then insert the book into the numbered list. Tomorrow I will look at the suggested refrences above and figure out how to do it correctly and will put it back in. Thanks. EDS4 (talk) 06:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

That sounds great, thanks. I know what you're talking about. I saw an article today that has a solution to what you're talking about. I think the way to do this is to cite the book shorthand style MLA (just like you did: Almeida, page number) in a "Notes" section, as if it were a footnote. Then, in the "References" section, you can give all the appropriate ISBN and information for the book as a reference. Like you said though, I'm not sure how to get it to show up in the list. The other thing is should websites be cited in a similar way, and if so how? Let me know if you need any help. Those pages should tell you how to do it. ~ Ryt 007 | ^Talk 13:20, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Will do return it to how it was a while back which seems to be the wikiformat as outlined by Wikipedia:Layout, with a Notes section and a References section. Notes for the footnotes and Refrences for printed sources. Hopefully we can get more info from printed stuff. That's what I'm working on. Reading a really great book by Matthias Assunção about Capoeira right now. And like you said, ABADÁ Times would be a good source too. Thanks for helping me figure out what was for sure the right way and the layout guide is great. EDS4 (talk) 03:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

In the end after looking at many pages with wiki stars, I think the "Notes" and "Refrences" are fine as are the form of citations. They aren't perfect by MLA or APA standards, but they pretty much follow what wiki wants and the format most wiki articles of high standing use (As far as I can tell). I saw one page, Jesus College Boat Club (Oxford) that had "References" Section with "Notes" and then "Bibliography" as subcatagories. I liked how they did that. Most pages do it as we have it now. Also one page had "Printed Sources" as the title instead of Refrences. Despite the small differeneces in format/titles for the works cited they all got stars.EDS4 (talk) 05:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

WikiProjects

I just tore down the ratings for all the WikiProjects we are listed under. Deleted Portuguese featured article Project (we are not a part of this). I copied and pasted them when I originally created this discussion page, which is not fair. I am going to become a member of WikiProject Martial Arts, have taken a look at the requirements, and have given this article a B-class rating. I don't think I really care about any of the other WikiProjects at this time. Eventually I may get around to rating this article based on those projects' guidelines. Ryt 007 (talk) 13:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Copy editing

One of the things I am planning on doing to work on this page. I am going to read through it and edit all spelling and grammar, to make sure everything is pristine (it looks pretty good so far!).

I will also be editing the current, flow, appearance, and such termed "pretty" things. One such example is I will probably move the history section above style, philosophy, and such. It makes more sense, and that is how all other articles on Wikipedia work. In general I will go through the Wikipedia article on "wikifying" as tagged at the top of the main article, and work on all those things, trying to make this page an amazing feat. Then maybe we can elect it for good page reviews, and up it's popularity or something. Open to advice and help! Ryt 007 (talk) 02:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

You can certainly go through it again. I will say we have repeatedly proofed and edited over the last several months for content and grammar before posting. English is my thing. Garra, the student who edited and rewrote it for content and grammar has a PhD in English. EDS4 (talk) 05:04, 13 June 2009 (UTC)