Talk:Abseiling/Archive 1

Archive 1

Request for historical elaboration

Disclaimer: I have done little to no editing of Wikipedia. Please excuse me if this is not the proper way of approaching this.

I wonder if those who maintain this article might be persuaded to expand it a bit (assuming that they are more educated in the matter, as I am quite the novice). I came to Wiki to see if I might find more information on the history of rappelling (abseiling) and there is really not much to this article in the way of history.

For instance, I found this rather interesting page (which, by the way, I believe could be incorprated into Wiki): http://www2.uiuc.edu/unit/armyrotc/program/rappelling.html

Moreso than the current Wiki page, this leads to even more historical questions like, how did the term swiss seat catch on (other than the obvious geographical origin) & how about the Australian Rappel (same vein)?

Anyway, if anyone has more information pertaining to this topic, I encourage you to share it, as there is at least one person quite interested in finding out more...

--65.103.143.2 03:17, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) [crimson30]

Tried to put the history up the best I could.

Geosal 05:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

possibly defaced?

"Abseilen is also used as a slang expression in German, meaning "to avoid doing something" or even sometimes "to defecate". First one is a common expression among Bundeswehr soldiers."

I'm interested in rock climbing, not supposed ways of nazi swearing. If, by rare chance, this definition is true, it's still not relevant to this subject of Rock climbing. Also, the phrase I am most familiar with is "Rappeling." Perhaps "Rapelling" should be a page of its own, dedicated solely to rock climbing.

I just removed the whole paragraph, since it contributed essentially nothing to the topic of descending via a rope. However, it turns out that the definition appears to actually be correct; to see this, Google on "scheißen abseilen". Scheißen is a more common German swear expression for defecating. Also, I personally find your equating of "German" and "Nazi" to be much more offensive than the word "defecate". MrRedact 23:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

How to

I moved the howto paragraph here : Talk:Abseiling/Howto -Flubeca^Talk 00:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No explanation of technique

Probably because the "how-to" element wasn't appropriate to an encyclopedia, a discussion of technique is missing completely! I came to the page to understand what rappelling is, and I still don't know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.103.208.72 (talk) 21:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No mention of military applications

Isn't this a widely used technique in the military and by law enforcement officers? Acceptable (talk) 01:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've changed rapelling from a redirect into an article to expand on this technique. bahamut0013♠♣ 17:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Image

Can this image be added to article ?

File:Abseiling types.JPG

• Wiki is not an instructional manual. This diagram is appropriate for that, perhaps, but not for the Wiki (in my humble opinion). Ratagonia (talk) 20:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Abseiling → Rapelling — Relisting at WP:RM.--Aervanath (talk) 04:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Abseiling → Rapelling — I suggest this page be moved to Rappelling. This is the most common term for this activity and thus the page should be there. TJ Spyke 04:45, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• Abseiling is the name for it in the UK (yes?) and therefore is acceptable. The English Language Wiki covers both American and British usages, and really, whoever gets to it first gets to name the article. (Consider that a VOTE OF NO on renaming the page) Ratagonia (talk) 20:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment. Actually that just refers to who gets to choose the language of the article, not the name of the article. The name is determined by WP:NAME. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 03:39, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
    • WP:NAME says:

      "National varieties of English

      Convention: All national varieties of English spelling are acceptable in article names. American spellings need not be respelled to British standards, and vice versa; for example, both color and colour are acceptable and both spellings are found in article titles (such as color gel and colour state). However an article title on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the variety of English appropriate for that nation.

      See also Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English" Ratagonia (talk) 06:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

    • Google gives 529,000 for "rappelling" and 861,000 for abseiling. I think over the english-speaking world, abseiling is the more common usage. Ratagonia (talk) 06:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
• Unsubstantiated claim doesn't match my experience. No proof, no move. Knepflerle (talk) 17:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons given by Ratagonia above Narj (talk) 17:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
• Here in Britain it is called abseiling. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:03, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Style

This article is not written as an encyclopedia article but instead as a guide for how to abseil.

Maelgwn 01:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Evidently, I am clouded by my approach to climbing articles. Please feel free to make these more encyclopediac and less instructional. 59.92.193.198 (talk) 07:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)Unslung Hex

Absail or Abseil

It is abseiling as opposed to absailing, so would someone plan to absail or abseil. Alexsanderson83 (talk) 23:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

it is abseiling. From the german word "seil" = rope; climing down a rope = "abseilen" = to abseil; (sailing in german: "segeln" --> using a wind-driven boat) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.157.17.217 (talk) 13:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

One way to make the article apolitical

Just a suggestion, but since some people are obviously still fighting World War II (ended circa 1945, aye) and this is the English language Wikipedia, why don't we eliminate words that sound like German words (I can't believe a human skill-set went political so quickly - the article is only about 10% complete). And, as "Acceptable" noted, suggest we add some info on military air assault, and law enforcement SWAT, schools - since many people pick up rappelling how-to from professional schools such as these. SK (talk) 07:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

If you want to remove words of German origin, it will no longer be English. A good half of the words in the English language are of German origin, including the word 'English' itself. A couple of silly, unsigned comment over four years is not a reason to censor the terms used in the article.60.161.248.217 (talk) 01:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

English and German were essentially the same language a thousand years ago, but they are not the same language today, so we're back to my suggestion to use words that don't sound "German," aye. I would also term it editing, rather than censoring, since the two are different concepts. SK (talk) 15:12, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Move II

Abseiling → Rappelling – Not trying to rehash an old move which was denied, but noticed that there the rationale for it being denied was no longer valid. 11,000,000 google hits for Rappelling, 2,800,000 for Abseiling. Stealthound (talk) 19:39, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Also noting that on google.co.uk it is 2,830,000 for Abseiling, 3,440,000 for Rappelling. Stealthound (talk) 19:46, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. WP:NAME states "The title of an article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the variety of English appropriate for that nation. [...] Otherwise, all national varieties of English are acceptable in article titles; Wikipedia does not prefer any national variety over any other. American spellings should not be respelled to British standards, and vice versa [...]". The article is already at "Abseiling", which is the most common term for the activity in Britain. Thelb⁴ 20:49, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that the argument can be made that Abseiling/Rappelling has "strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation". Stealthound (talk) 23:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment: By the way, 'rappelling' is spelled with two 'p's. Heaven forfend that we end up with this article at the incorrect Rapelling. Thelb4^(talk) 20:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Clear WP:ENGVAR case. Abseiling is definitely the most common term in British English, see this ngram for evidence. Jenks24 (talk) 08:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

However, when one looks at this ngram which uses both British and American English, there are many more books which currently use Rappelling. Stealthound (talk) 23:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I withdraw this move request as it looks like this is farly well defined in WP:ENGVAR. Stealthound (talk) 23:10, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I hereby declare this argument officially "nutso" (har) :-) SK (talk) 12:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

derivation

"is derived from the French language: French, recall, return, rappel, from Old French, recall, from rappeler, to recall: re-, re- + appeler, to summon."

How does this derive? French rappeler means to remember so. of sth., or "to reprove so.". And what should "to summon" or "to recall" have to do with "abseiling" ? --129.13.72.198 (talk) 14:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Meanings in Germany

1) abseilen means "to climb down a rope ("seil" = rope;) ("ab" has many different meanings, but it is often used at the beginning of words, which are telling the direction "down", like "abwärts" = downwards)

2a) it is also used (in a not gentile way) to tell someone (often between boys in the age 15-25) a storry about going to the toilet.

Its somehow like the term "having a shit". In a normal conversation it is used like this: "Ich geh dann mal einen abseilen" (word-by-word: I willgo anotherone abseiling).

The meaning is: "I'm goning to abseil a peace of shit", like "I will let one p-o-s out and downward into the toilet". In english it could sound like: "Well boys, I think I'll have a shit, lets talk later".

2b) it is also often used in a other way - to tell someone to leave a place, a meeting, a party. One is saying this to a good friend, when you try to leave a party before time, or if you dont like the party and cant tell this the host. ("Ich werd mich dann mal abseilen" - word-by-word: "I willgo me than abseil". Meaning: "Well my friend, I think I will leave within the next time, its quite late and I have to ....(work tomorrow, 'm tired, or something else.)

All true. But this isn't an article about the German word "abseilen", it's an article about the English (loan) word "abseiling", which means climbing down a rope, without the 2a) and 2b) meanings, so they don't belong in the article. -- DevSolar (talk) 17:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

:Well, not so true, german "abseilen" means "to lower sth. using a rope", yourself, someone else, a packet, and by not actively climbing down.

Is "abseiling" (in english) also used outside of climbing, for example for lowering a sandag (or whatever) from a helicopter? --129.13.72.198 (talk) 14:31, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Primary Image

The caption for that image should not say proper technique, the woman fails to extend her belay device, has no back up brake. Misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.98.162.208 (talk) 06:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

GA Nom

Giving it a nom for good article. New at this and keen for feedback. SpaceInnovader (talk) 12:21, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Abseiling/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: David Eppstein (talk · contribs) 05:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Most of the information in this article is in its image captions and embedded lists. The actual text of the article consists only of the three paragraphs of the lead (much of it saying things that do not summarize later parts of the article), one paragraph of history, and a short paragraph about safety. One could read the whole article and still not have any idea what an anchor is, why it is necessary, or how abseiling protects anchors; how to go about a multi-pitch descent; what the differences are between single-person double-rope abseiling and belayed abseiling (or even that there is such a thing as belayed abseiling), etc. There are many images but they are not well-integrated into the text; many of them appear decorative rather than having any relation to the text they appear next to. As such I think it is very far from meeting MOS:LEAD and WP:USEPROSE (Good article criterion 1b), broadness of its coverage (criterion 3), and appropriate use of images (criterion 6b). Additionally, although most of the sources appear reliable, I am skeptical of the reliability of the 3D Rope Access one, and the Sydney and Moab sources are about very specific situations but are used as sources for a more general point that they do not really support (WP:SYN and criterion 2c). It looks more like class C than GA to me. Because this is very far from passing, I think it falls under the "immediate fail" option of WP:GACR. Incidentally, Earwig's copyvio detector found a likely violation (very similar looking text in a Youtube video description) but I think the copying went the other way. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

As mentioned in the edit summary, the undue weight template was added because the controversey of redirecting a term to a page of a term that is used 3 to 4 times less frequently worldwide, and squelching all debate in the talk page and declaring anyone who would dare say otherwise as "nutso" would be bad enough. But it didn't stop there. In the text of article itself, the word "abseil" is used far more often than is necessary, even appearing in the same sentence as an American subject almost like a bully pulpit and rubbing it in the face of the "losers". How is any of this the least bit consistent with WP:ENGVAR? All else being equal, regional variants should be used somewhat interchangably but with some effort to match a given locale's preferred term with its usage in context. Even though all else is not equal, the aforementioned edit attempted to do this somewhat by removing a few of the more "in your face" appearances of "abseil" while leaving most mentions as is. But as I stated in the edit summary, the article, as it is currently written, exemplifies an anglish bias and explains why so many 'muricans complain about how there should be an en-us.wikipedia.org, and why most teachers forbid students from referencing Wikipedia in research projects. Regardless of its stated policies, systemic bias has always caused en.wikipedia.org to lean more heavily towards being en-gb.wikipedia.org than the other way around, but regardless of which way a particular article leans, such biases are an unnecessary distraction from the article's content, especially when they are given undue weight as this article does. 161.149.63.239 (talk) 08:54, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Burj Khalifa window cleaning.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:06, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Rapelling vs Abseiling

This article must be retitled "Rappelling."

A Google search reveals 13,000,000 hits for "abseiling" vs. 104,000,000 for "rappelling."

Really, guys, should it be "Abseiling, also known as rappelling..." or "Rappelling, also known as abseiling..."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesdoyle12 (talk • contribs) 02:25, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

No. This article has been well established with this title since establishment, and google searches are no real reason to move/rename a well established article. --2001:8003:59B9:9800:1D45:6EA1:26F2:E3C5 (talk) 07:20, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. There is a redirect from Rapelling, so no reason to change. (Weirdly, and as an aside, by my Google search, I get 17,600,000 for abseiling, and 5,900,000 for rapelling). Nick Moyes (talk) 10:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)