Talk:Bahmani invasion of Orissa

Recent removal

@Sudsahab, please read the article body before removing informations. The infobox and the lead need not to cite if it is covered in the article body. Read WP:LEAD. Imperial^[AFCND] 17:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Number of men

The sources clearly state there was 700,000 men in the first encounter [1].

You keep adding Purushottama having 18k men only, but this isn't in the first encounter and this is even recognized by the source you used.

See your source that you added: "According to Firishfa, Sultan Muhammad III sent twenty thousand horse in pursuit of Purushottama, ravaged the districts as far as the capital in 1477 and intended to send for Mahmud Gawan in order to occupy the country permanently. Purushottama was compelled to sue for peace, sent repeated embassies and purchased peace by delivering twenty-five elephants belonging to his father."

We know this is the second encounter because of the gift of elephants; see Nizami, and the article itself.

"Muhammad Shah III demanded 25 elephants, the finest from his father's stable, as a condition for withdrawal. The Gajapati had to concede to this demand, and Muhammad withdrew his forces after securing the elephants." (the second encounter) [2] Page 38-39.

Heres Nizami: [3] "Ferishta writes that in 882/l477 Muhammad invaded Orissa to punish the Rai for helping the rebels of Kondavidu (Kondnir), The Rai negotiated for peace and gave 25 elephants..."

This should be divided in the infobox for encounters (as I was doing), and we can work from there. But there is no doubt that in the first encounter there was over 700,000 men. The second encounter (which your source even recognizes), may have had less men such as the 18,000. Noorullah (talk) 18:37, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I've added the figures for the second encounter into the infobox. Noorullah (talk) 18:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Also just noticed this, your source also mentions the 700,000 men on page 310 at the bottom in the ending sentences: - [4]. "When they arrived in the neighbourhood of the fortress, they saw an immense city, on the further side of which the infidel Narasimha Raya with 7,00,000 accursed infantry and 500 elephants like mountains of iron had taken his stand." Noorullah (talk) 18:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Also the mention of Fathullah Darya Khan's detachment is alongside the first encounter and the mention of 7,00,000 Soldiers wherein he also clearly states that Purushottama has a 18,000 man strong army when he took Rajahmuhdry from Nizam.

"Purushottama arrived with ten thousand horse and eight thousand foot and drove out Nizam-ul-mulk Hasan Bahri from Rajamahendrl. Sultan Muhammad III Bahmani was compelled to march in person accom¬ panied by Khwajah-i-Jahln Mahmud GawSn Gilani and the heir-apparent prince Mahmud. Bhimaraja shut himself up in the fort of Kondapalle and Purushottama re-crossed the Godavari. According to Firishfa, Sultan Muhammad III sent twenty thousand horse in pursuit of Purushottama, ravaged the districts as far as the capital in 1477 and intended to send for Mahmud Gawan in order to occupy the country permanently."

This was the description of the first encounter. Also the text that you are constantly quoting is from Burhan-I-Masir being quoted by the author in his book himself "Let us now return to the comparatively sober account of the Burhan-i-Ma asir ,—" on page 310.

At this point you just seem to put words in my mouth, I never declined that the fort did not have 7,00,000 sources all I am saying is that they were unengaged. Purushottam left the fort:- "Yet notwithstanding all these army and pomp and pride and preparation, when Narasiihha Raya heard of the arrival of the Sultan's army, thinking it advisable to avoid meeting their attack, he elected to take to flight.

"When the Sultan became aware of the flight of the enemy, he appointed Malik Fathullah Darya Khan with several other ’amirs of his conquering army to go in pursuit and in slaughtering and plundering to strive their utmost."

This is all first encounter. Normstahlie (talk) 19:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The sources clearly say that Purushottama took flight notwithstanding his army in the Kovilkonda, this was the first encounter this is acknowledged by the source you mentioned "The king sent Darya Khan to the rear of the enemy’s forces which was put to flight pursued by a part of the Bahmani army."this is taken from the Briggs Translation of Ferista's text.

The figure that R.D Banerji states is again referring to the first encounter and not the second encounter, he clearly clarifies that the sultan sends Darya Khan to pursue the fleeing king. Also let me reiterate all the figures that I mentioned were relevant to only the first encounter and events that happened before this encounter i.e Purushottam defeating Nizam to take Rajahmundry back.

Also the claim that 25 Elephants were gifted on the second encounter is again incorrect since [5] Haroon Khan Sherwani does not mention any such exchange during the second battle. "When the Raya heard this he was greatly alarmed and communicated his willingness to pay homage to the king, oflfering to lay down his arms and sending him costly presents and a large number of elephants. The king accepted the homage offered by the Raya and confirmed him as the ruler of his patrimony.." Normstahlie (talk) 18:56, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

"The king sent Darya Khan to the rear of the enemy’s forces which was put to flight pursued by a part of the Bahmani army." -- Yes this is the first encounter, but Purushottama's army here was 700,000 strong as aforementioned.

You're saying the figure that Banerji is referring to the first encounter (for the 18,000), but this isn't the case. See what he mentions:

"According to Firishfa, Sultan Muhammad III sent twenty thousand horse in pursuit of Purushottama, ravaged the districts as far as the capital in 1477 and intended to send for Mahmud Gawan in order to occupy the country permanently. Purushottama was compelled to sue for peace, sent repeated embassies and purchased peace by delivering twenty-five elephants belonging to his father." This was in 1477. (the second encounter) [6]

On page 310-311 he mentions the 700,000 men and Darya Khan, check it. [7] and [8]

Also one source not mentioning the exchange of elephants doesn't mean anything -- two other sources we just went over mentioned it unless you're discrediting your own source you cited..? Noorullah (talk) 19:01, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

@Normstahlie Noorullah (talk) 19:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

"Purushoftama lost more than one half of his ancestral dominions within five or six years of his accession. The loss of the southern provinces of the empire was followed by a reaction. An Oriya officer of Sultan Muhammad III Bahmani named BhimarUja returned to the allegiance of his own king and, capturing Kondapalle in 1474, invited"

"Purushottama to come and recover his ancestral dominions in Telingana. Purushottama arrived with ten thousand horse and eight thousand foot and drove out Nizam-ul-mulk Hasan Bahri from Rajamahendrl. Sultan Muhammad III Bahmani was compelled to march in person accom¬ panied by Khwajah-i-Jahln Mahmud GawSn Gilani and the heir-apparent prince Mahmud. Bhimaraja shut himself up in the fort of Kondapalle and Purushottama re-crossed the Godavari. According to Firishfa, Sultan Muhammad III sent twenty thousand horse in pursuit of Purushottama, ravaged the districts as far as the capital in 1477 and intended to send for Mahmud Gawan in order to occupy the country permanently. Purushottama was compelled to sue for peace, sent repeated embassies and purchased peace by delivering twenty-five elephants belong¬ ing to his father."

Page 308-309, He is clearly talking about the first encounter. Normstahlie (talk) 19:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It literally says in 1477, that is the second encounter, please look at your quote. "ravaged the districts as far as the capital in 1477". @Normstahlie Noorullah (talk) 19:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, but the army at Konvilkonda was still unengaged considering the King fleed and was chased down by Dary kHAN. Normstahlie (talk) 19:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

@Normstahlie The King fled but he was chased down by Darya Khan, who attacked the rear of the Gajapati army. Meaning he was still caught by the pursuing Bahmanis, so it would be incorrect to say he was unengaged. Noorullah (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The army in kolikonda was unengaged. He was caught while fleeing it would be incorrect to say that the whole army of 7,00,000 men went along with him considering he did not stand with his army. that is why I also mentioned an army of 18,000 men but you insist that the second encounter happened on 1477, while the author seems to refer the opposite. Normstahlie (talk) 19:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Also Haroon Sherwani does not mention an exchange of 25 elephants in the second encounter. Normstahlie (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes but the other sources do mention the exchange of elephants.

SEE Sherwani: Darya Khan still engaged the army (which fled). [9] See more sources on the army. [10] -- The king fled but HE was still pursued with his army, which compelled him to sue for peace. @Normstahlie Noorullah (talk) 19:40, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

notwithstanding doesn't mean he wasn't with his army, he fled with his army. So I'm not sure what this edit was. [11] Noorullah (talk) 19:40, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I think you're confused by the statement "notwithstanding", it has no relation to being with his army. Noorullah (talk) 19:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

You quoted the same source the first time then my source, eitherways my source is confusing as it's chronology does not make sense.

Bhimraya seems to have invited Purushottama in 1474, and the sultan retaliated in 1477. It seems that he talking about the first encounter, but the accounts of both Burhan-I-masir and Ferishta differ. in 1474 Purushottama seems to have mobilized 18,000 forces against the Nizam, sieging the city then crossing godvari back having heard that Sultan had retaliated. Normstahlie (talk) 19:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Hes talking about the first encounter.

But I'm talking about you now confusing "notwithstanding" for the King not being with his army, the King fled yes but with his army, however he was pursued with Darya Khan as sourced above. @Normstahlie Noorullah (talk) 20:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Done Normstahlie (talk) 20:17, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay fair enough, but they were still not engaged it fair to say they were routed to Rajahmundry fortress then isolated they had to give up arms. Normstahlie (talk) 20:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

They didn't engage initially, they fled which you are correct on. BUT Darya Khan pursued them and fought with them, engaging them then. He fled and then surrendered.

As shown here: "The king sent Darya Khan to the rear of the enemy’s forces which was put to flight pursued by a part of the Bahmani army. Purushotam now seems to have laid down his arms and sued for peace which was granted to him." [12]

"'*When the Sultan became aware of the flight of the enemy, he appointed Malik Fathullah Darya Khan with several other * amirs of his conquering army to go in pursuit and in slaughtering and plundering to strive their utmost. Darya Khan accordingly, with his division, pursued the infidels as far as the fortress of Rajamundri, and laid siege to it." [13]

--

Concluding remark is that they still fought, the King tried to flee but he was chased down by Darya Khan and then forced to engage before sheltering in a fortress, where they then had to give up.

Can you revert your edit on the unengaged part? I would do so but I can't anymore because of 3RR. Noorullah (talk) 20:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay fair enough. Normstahlie (talk) 20:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Done. Normstahlie (talk) 20:17, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I've went through the mentioned sources again, it doesn't seem that they engaged, your quotations also seems to imply the same. Normstahlie (talk) 08:21, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Also please let me know your thoughts on this: Krishna Panigrahi claims that the first encounter happened somewhere in 1476-1477, same in R.D Banerji's case which is supported by Sherwani's book wherein he clearly states that the second encounter happens in the later part of 1477 and not presumably the start of the year which is as implied by the author. During the second encounter there was no resistance by Purushottama, also to bring to your notice R.D Banerji is talking about the first encounter only when he says this: "Purushottama to come and recover his ancestral dominions in Telingana. Purushottama arrived with ten thousand horse and eight thousand foot and drove out Nizam-ul-mulk Hasan Bahri from Rajamahendrl. Sultan Muhammad III Bahmani was compelled to march in person accom¬ panied by Khwajah-i-Jahln Mahmud GawSn Gilani and the heir-apparent prince Mahmud. Bhimaraja shut himself up in the fort of Kondapalle and Purushottama re-crossed the Godavari. According to Firishfa, Sultan Muhammad III sent twenty thousand horse in pursuit of Purushottama, ravaged the districts as far as the capital in 1477"

This is a comparison made between ferishta's account and burhan-i-masir. Normstahlie (talk) 13:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Another point to note:-Haque clearly mentions that the gifting of the 25 elephants is not mentioned in Tabaqat-I-Nasiri and Burhan-I-Masir, which is further corrborated by Haroon's book. Also according to R.D Banerji purushottama mobilized 18,000 men on 1474 and then crossed godvari with the same amount the event which happened subsequently were him taking flight to rajahmundry in the early part of 1477 . Normstahlie (talk) 14:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I've edited it all again, my concluding remark is these events happened simultaneously rather than as seperate instances as inferred from the book of panigrahi, R.D Banerji and Haroon all of these people say that the second encounter happened in the same year as the first encounter, and as I've previously mentioned R.D banerji makes a comparative account between burhan-i-masir and feristah.

The comparison he made is clearly visible on page 310 [14], he switched from ferishta's account to burhan i masiri, he is not talking about a different event altogether, haroon seems to be implicating that the event were simultaneous and not two seperate accounts he mistakenly writes it as 1478 when the hijri date he mentions is 882 which translates to 1477 and not 1478. Normstahlie (talk) 14:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Also before making any edits please first discuss about it here, because it becomes hard to edit with as it all delves into a pandemonium. Normstahlie (talk) 14:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Also another note to be made here even if R.D Banerji is talking about the later part of 1477 wherein, we need to consider that purushottama had mobilized forces to invade rajahmundry in 1474 the event following that year was that off the retaliation of muhammad shah in 1476-77 which is attributed to the 7,00,000 infantary in the fortress of kolikonda Normstahlie (talk) 14:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

"Also before making any edits please first discuss about it here, because it becomes hard to edit with as it all delves into a pandemonium." -- I have been discussing and then you keep re-editing the page immediately afterward.

We've already went through this and you agreed, if you're going to keep arguing this get a WP:3PO because there is a plethora of sources I've shown. Noorullah (talk) 02:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Again -- they fought: [15]

"When the Sultan became aware of the flight of the enemy, he appointed Malik Fathullah Darya Khan with several other * amirs of his conquering army to go in pursuit and in slaughtering and plundering to strive their utmost. Darya Khan accordingly, with his division, pursued the infidels as far as the fortress of Rajamundri, and laid siege to it."

[16]

"Accompanied by Shah Muhibhu’l-lah, he went in pursuit of Purushotam who was now encamped with seven lacs of foot soldiers and five hundred elephants on the banks of the Godavari. He had dug a huge defensive trench filled with water and built a wall on ihc further side with pieces of ordnance mounted on it.'®® The king sent Darya iT/tan to the rear of the enemy’s forces which was pat to flight pursued by a part of the Bahmani army. Purushotam now seems to have laid down his arms and sued for peace which was granted to him."

His army was routed and then he surrendered after being pursued into a fort. Noorullah (talk) 02:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The second encounter did not happen in the same time as the first year, that is completely contrarian to what all the sources say. See Nizami as I've cited for example. Noorullah (talk) 02:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I have already replied to all of this, none of the sources you mention seem to imply that they engaged head on. Purushottama had surrendered before fighting.

"When the Sultan became aware of the flight of the enemy, he appointed Malik Fathullah Darya Khan with several other * amirs of his conquering army to go in pursuit and in slaughtering and plundering to strive their utmost. Darya Khan accordingly, with his division, pursued the infidels as far as the fortress of Rajamundri, and laid siege to it."

Reading this passage it is clear that the king is giving darya fathullah khan instructions to pursue them and slaughtering and plundering to strive their utmost, nowhere does this say that they fought purushottama. Rather as we can infer from other sources such as, R.D Banerji and Krishna Panigrahi they were chased down to rajahmundry fortress wherein they surrendered after the sultan arrived simultaneously and isolated purushottama in the fortress. They never engaged head on. Normstahlie (talk) 07:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Every source including Haroon Khan Sherwani, Haque, R.D Banerji, and Krishna Panigrahi clearly say that the peace did not last very long and in the later part of 1477 Sultan invaded Orissa yet again but let go with 25 Elephants according to Firishta, which is also doubted by most scholars because of the ridiculousness such an incident and that is why it is not accepted by R.D Banerji and Haroon Khan who clearly omits the exchange of 25 elephants from his book. Even so, referring to Krishhna Panigrahi's book he mentions inscriptions dated 1476-1477 A.D commerate Purushottama's victory over the territories of Rajahmundry and Kondaveedu, this event instigated the first encounter. Normstahlie (talk) 07:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, Purushottama mobilized the force of 18,000 men in 1474 and the subsequent events that happened were of the first encounter and not the second. R.D Banerji in his book creates a comparative account between Ferishta and Burhan-I-Masir (which is referred to as the more sober source). So we can either omit these numbers, or put them in the first encounter when he was invading Rajahmundry and Kondaveedu which instigated this war. Normstahlie (talk) 07:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

You constantly refer to the plethora of sources you've mentioned but all I've seen are Nizami's book who does not disagree with me, and in exchange I've shown you sources who date the first encounter to 1477. Normstahlie (talk) 07:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Stop reverting the page, this is your last warning before I take this to ANI. It is up to you per WP:ONUS and your case certainly isn't proving itself here. Noorullah (talk) 02:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

You clearly won't accept the prior argument so take this to WP:3O, because this is starting to become WP:ICANTHEARYOU where you initially agreed then changed your mind out of nowhere. Incessantly Edit warring the page isn't proving your point which is why the intercession of another editor is important, see WP:CONSENSUS Noorullah (talk) 02:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

They engaged (when Darya Khan pursued and fought with them) while they were retreating. Please understand what the term engagement means. See Engagement (military). The force under Darya Khan engaged the withdrawing force.

I'm not sure what you're arguing about in 1474 and so on before, all WP:RS sources state the first encounter happened in 1476, and the second in 1477. Banerji doesn't omit the exchange of 25 elephants.. you keep claiming he does but he doesn't.

"Purushottama was compelled to sue for peace, sent repeated embassies and purchased peace by delivering twenty-five elephants belonging to his father." [17]

Haroon being the only source out of 5 others that omits the exchange of elephants means absolutely nothing and is clinging onto something WP:FRINGE.

The quotes I have cited numerous times show that Darya Khan pursued and fought with them so you claiming that they didn't clash makes absolutely no sense. Noorullah (talk) 03:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

They engaged (when Darya Khan pursued and fought with them) while they were retreating.

There is no mention of them fighting, all the WP:RS clearly state that they were pursued down to Fortress of Rajahmundry and then they surrendered. The mission assigned to them as mentioned "Slaughtering and Plundering" was incomplete.

I'm not sure what you're arguing about in 1474 and so on before, all WP:RS sources state the first encounter happened in 1476, and the second in 1477. Banerji doesn't omit the exchange of 25 elephants.. you keep claiming he does but he doesn't.

Can you show me such sources, I've shown you Krishna Panigrahi's source which clearly mentions that the first encounter happened between 1476-1477 C.E which he proved using the inscriptions at Narsimha Simachalam Temple you seem to ignore that in every argument you make. I've also quoted multiple times that R.D Banerji is not talking about the second encounter, he makes comparative notes on Burhan-I-Masir and Ferishta on the first encounter, which can be seen on page 310, when he switches from ferishta to a more sober account i.e Burhan-I-Masir.

You have used Nizami's source which uses Ferishta's accounts on the event as he does not mention the army of 7,00,000 rather highlights an exchange of 25 Elephants which occurred in the first encounter not the second, another point to note here is that during the second encounter Purushottama did not resist the invasion, he settled it with paying homage (Haroon's book) while in the first encounter the Sultan rallied his forces in retaliation to Purushottama annexing Rajahmudry and Kondaveedu, this is how we contextually concur that R.D Banerji is talking about the first encounter not the second.

Another way we can approach this is that Purushottama mobilized his forces which amounted to about 18,000 men in 1474 and the subsequent encounter which was recorded, happened in 1476-1477. So to say that Purushottama had a force of about 18,000 men during the second encounter would be incorrect according to the timeline and WP:RS. Also every WP:RS clearly states that the second encounter happened in the later part of 1477. Normstahlie (talk) 09:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I've shown you in numerous sources that the encounter happened in 1476. Go to WP:3PO because you are only repeating yourself here. This is near becoming Bludgeoning for both sides because you aren't able to realize the point. Noorullah (talk) 17:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

You haven't is my point, none of the sources mention the dates. Eitherways I will check out WP:3PO.Normstahlie (talk) 17:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)