Talk:Beatty, Nevada/GA1

GA Review

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Hi, I'll be reviewing this article. I have some comments before I decide to pass or fail its nomination:

Some help with pronunciation would be helpful.
The first sentence is quite a mouthful. I'm not sure how I would reword it, but it does need to be done. It's also a bit confusing; are the CDP and town two separate places?
Anything more recent for the "as of 2009" bit?
The history section – though interesting and thoroughly well-written – appears as an unattractive wall of text. Maybe you could play around with the images' placement?
Where does the ample water come from?
the CDP has a total area of 175.6 square miles (454.9 km²), all of it land. The Amargosa River [...] flows on the surface through Beatty. - Seems rather contradictory.
The image in the Demographics section doesn't seem very relevant to the adjacent content, nor is it a particularly high-quality or informative illustration (no offense intended toward the uploader). Personally I would remove it or look for a replacement.
There's another outdated reference to 2009 in the Government section.
The Education system seems needlessly stubby; why not merge it with Infrastructure?
In 2009, the Chamber of Commerce web site described the town as the Gateway to Death Valley, a small rural community that has "everything the desert visitor needs", including more than 340 rooms and 108 recreational vehicle (RV) sites. - Which Chamber of Commerce? Do we really need the date? Also, the whole sentence seems a bit travel guide-ish.

Otherwise it's a very nice article. I'm placing it on-hold for now to allow these issues to be addressed; you thus have around 7 days to implement any necessary changes. Let me know if you have any questions and thanks for your efforts so far. Juliancolton (talk) 12:46, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a member of WP:NV I was bold, and fixed these issues, except for 5th one, the one about thew river. However, I clarified that the Armogsoa River is a dry river. Thanks for the review JC. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home

Comment One thing I would add in regards to the history section is make sure it focuses on the history of the settlement and not the general area around it. The section about the various mines and facilities since 1962 could be incorporated into an Economy section, but none of the facilities are actually in Beatty, at least according to the article. In either case, it seems there's a bit too much detail about the companies; how they affect/affected Beatty is certainly appropriate for the history section, but a lot of it seems to be more details on the companies themselves. The waste disposal site was 17 miles from Beatty and doesn't really say anything about how it affected the town. My understanding of city articles (or CDPs) is that they are about the settlement itself rather than the general vicinity. Also not a fan of using the quote "provides a steady source of employment for a dozen or so families in the area." If there are no exact employment numbers, leave it out or say it employs "approximately a dozen workers". --JonRidinger (talk) 17:13, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the water sources, the water district site says they use three wells. I have yet to find a mention of the aquifer used. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the tip. I have now added a sentence about the three wells and the water district to the Infrastructure section as well as a supporting citation. Finetooth (talk) 19:54, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is incorrect to say that the Amargosa River is dry; it is intermittent for most of its length, but it flows on the surface in Beatty and along much longer stretch near Tecopa. So much water flows on the surface near Tecopa that the United States Geological Survey operates a stream gauge there. See here. The photo File:Amargosa River in Beatty, Nevada.jpg shows water in the river in Beatty. The contradiction that Julian Colton noted between the claim that the river flows through Beatty and the Census Bureau claim that Beatty is all land is a real contradiction. The Census Bureau is wrong, but I don't know why. It may be that the bureau counts anything smaller than a certain fraction as zero or that it simply made a mistake; I just don't know. The fix here might be to add a note saying that two reliable sources say different things. (I think at least one of the wells mentioned by Vegaswikian is west of Beatty in the Amargosa Desert and that the drinking water source is not the river, but I have no source to back this up. I don't think the current source is the same as the mid-19th century source, but again I have no sources, just hunches.)

I think Yellow Evan, in changes made over the weekend, was working toward an Economy section (which I later reverted) built from fragments of the History material. Jon Ridinger has suggested an Economy section too, and I'm inclined to agree that I stuffed too much into the History section and that creating an Economy section is a good idea. Some of the History material could be moved into an Economy section and perhaps a bit more added from elsewhere. I think that's what Yellow Even was aiming for. I own a copy of the McCracken book, A History of Beatty Nevada, and I can check it for support for specific economic claims prior to the 1990s, if necessary and if McCracken covered the topic(s) in question. I own a copy of the Lingenfelter book as well. I believe everything else has an online source or sources. Moving some of the History material into an Economy section might help reduce the "unattractive wall of text" noted by Julian.

I think that some of the climate claims added by User:Sallyrob are not supported by the cited sources. I became aware of that while looking at changes made by Yellow Evan. For example, "This was exceeded slightly in January 2005, when a total of 13.6 inches (35 cm) fell" is a claim not supported by either of the cited sources, as far as I can tell. I don't think an article should be promoted to GA if the sources do not support the claims, so I am eager to fix this section either by finding supporting sources or deleting the unsupported claims. That means going through all of the statistical claims and making sure that they match what the source(s) say.

I think I can do this in seven days or less, but I don't want to work at cross-purposes with other editors. I really don't like reverting other peoples' work. Does anyone object if I try to re-work the material along the lines discussed above; i.e., add an Economy section, fix the Climate section? Finetooth (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objections. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home

Likewise. I would suggest adding a list here of the questionable citations/material and we can strike out the ones that have been addressed. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, and thanks to Julian for his reviewer's comments and suggestions. I'll tackle the Economy section problem first since that seems to be the biggest single thing and since I have the two books and some ideas about how to proceed. If someone has time to check the facts in the Climate section, that would be great. Sallyrob might know where some of the data lives; the two cited weather sources might have the missing data on other pages of their complex sites. Finetooth (talk) 20:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be more specific, the only claims in the Climate section that may not be supported by the two cited sources are the claims about records in the third paragraph: "The highest recorded temperature was 115 °F (46 °C) on June 11, 1961, and the lowest was 1 °F (−17 °C) on February 13, 1924. The wettest year was 1998 with 12.62 inches (321 mm) and driest years was 2002 with .46 inches (12 mm). The greatest rainfall was 3.25 inches (83 mm) on August 2, 1922. The record cold spell in January 1949 brought 13.1 inches (33 cm) of snow to Beatty. This was exceeded slightly in January 2005, when a total of 13.6 inches (35 cm) fell." I'd be inclined to track down the source for each claim and to add an in-line citation right after the punctuation at the end of the claim since the claims aren't all supported by a single source. I think the other climate paragraphs are fine and that the table is fine. Finetooth (talk) 20:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll tackle the climate info (might end up with a COI, but we can always recruit somebody else to finish up the review). Juliancolton (talk) 20:43, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. Finetooth (talk) 21:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to do work to the history section, writing a brief mention info about the open pit mine, but the stupid ref made it stressful to do. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home

<outdent>I'm making headway. I've added an Economy section and removed a lot of material from the History section, most of which went into the Economy section. This led to re-arranging the images and finding one that better fits the Economy section. In the process, I removed another image, the weak one Julian mentioned above. I provided a citation for the Census Bureau data about land and water; the raw data takes a while to figure out, but it supports the claim. I added a note saying the the bureau's water data does not count the river as water. This is a bit of a weasel, but I couldn't think of anything better. I'm having a hard time making the "town" and "CDP" business clear because I can't find a reliable source to support what I see to be the case: Beatty, the town, is the part of the CDP with stores, houses, streets arranged in blocks, and so on, whereas the CDP is much bigger and covers a lot of unpopulated or extremely thinly populated land outside of town. Do any of you who live in Nevada know how to explain this neatly and source it to something reliable. Here is a non-RS page with a map of the CDP with the town in the middle. I hope I didn't step on any toes with my changes. Any suggestions are welcome. Finetooth (talk) 03:51, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am a Nevada resident, and have been to the town itself. I can solve you issued. Beatty is an unincorporated township and a CDP in Nevada. Last week, I proposed deletion for the towns in Nevada category, and had a heated discussion with another user. In Nevada, there not just thing as being a town under law. However, Beatty is an unincorporated township because it has a town advisory board. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home

After reading Census-designated place I'd say leave it as a CDP and don't mention town. In the Nye County, Nevada article it is listed under Settlements and unincorporated towns. So probably the Nye county article needs a wording change. I did find this link which lists it as an unincorporated town. Since its source is the Nevada State Demographer's Office, that may be a reliable source to not list Beatty as a town. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gotcha! Thanks. I replaced "town" with "CDP", "community" or "Beatty" throughout to avoid confusion between the generic meaning of "town" and the specific legal meaning attached to it in some geographic locales but not others. Finetooth (talk) 05:38, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I sourced most of the individual weather claims. I couldn't find sources for the biggest-ever rain and the biggest-ever snow and deleted them. If someone finds sources, they could be re-added at any time, but removing them solves the immediate problem. Finetooth (talk) 05:41, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to find the Beatty equivalent of this LV page. If it exists, it should have the local records. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Boy is that data elusive! What I have so far is far is highest daily rainfall in February between 1948 and 1972 was about 1.65in.[1] Snowfall in the same year range was 7in.[2]. I do have a source for 13.1 inches of snow in January of 1949 under the Monthly Snowfall Listings Monthly Totals link. Still nothing to use. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:50, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A great source is the US Census Bureau's 2010 Boundary and Annexation Survey maps. Nevada only uses maps for "Place" (incorporated municipality) and "County or County equivalent". The map for Nye County, Nevada has the CDP of Beatty clearly marked and includes an inset of the main settlment area (what most would probably refer to as "the town" in a more general use of "town"). It is also part of the CCD of Beatty. --JonRidinger (talk) 05:49, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic! I had never discovered that wing of the Census Bureau storehouse before. I've added a few words to the Geography section and citations to both maps. If you don't mind my asking, when you got to the parent directory here for Nye County, how did you know which of those many maps were the right maps? Finetooth (talk) 17:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When you look at any parent directory, the map with the number "000" is always the composite map of the entire county or place. The numbered parts are closeups of specific parts of that map, which can be identified on the composite map. As for the inset, you have to zoom in on the main Nye County map over Beatty and you'll see a small box with a red "D1" over it indicating an inset for "D1" so you find that on the directory page. --JonRidinger (talk) 20:58, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. Thank you. I'll certainly use this information for other articles as well as this one. Finetooth (talk) 01:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have now responded to all of the reviewer's suggestions (although the rain and snow extremes could still be added if Vegaswikian is successful). Have I missed anything? Have I added any new errors? Anybody see anything else that should be fixed, moved, or added? Finetooth (talk) 19:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What about transportation? Leave Message, Yellow Evan home

The highways are already included in the Geography section. Aside from private cars and trucks on highways, do you know of anything else that we should include? Finetooth (talk) 01:49, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to cleanup the hidden maintenance categories from the article. The only one left is Category:Infobox Settlement US maintenance and I don't see why it is included here. Anyone have an idea?

I don't know in general what they are. Where do they appear? Finetooth (talk) 20:57, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They appear with the other categories only if you go into your preferences and turn on displaying hidden categories, the default is off. Since I commonly work with categories I have changed my setting to display hidden categories. I think it is listed under the appearance tab. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I didn't know that, but I now see the setting you mean. Finetooth (talk) 01:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay, all. I wasn't editing much during the weekend. I'll look at that Climate section straight away. Juliancolton (talk) 00:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like other editors have already dealt with this issue. Now I feel guilty... Juliancolton (talk) 00:25, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thats ok JC. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home

Ditto. I posted a note to Julian's talk page to make sure he wouldn't miss it: "Please don't feel guilty. About four editors pitched in and made a lot of changes, which we hope are improvements. I think we've addressed all of your concerns. Please let me know if we've missed anything or need to do more." Finetooth (talk) 04:03, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it looks like the article is in shape now. Good work to all; the article is being passed. Thanks! Juliancolton (talk) 02:26, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]