Talk:Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Revised Request 5/9

Good morning. I am resubmitting my request to have my employer's talk page updated with more recent information that better tells our story. I apologize if this request is redundant, as I know the text has been pasted on three different occasions throughout this talk page but I was advised by another editor to just create a brand new edit request. The below rendition includes references that were previously marked as missing, and has been revised to be as neutral and non-promotional as possible. Additionally, I am aware of the occurrence of University-supplied sources, but as previously mentioned, there are some claims that can only be supported through information and historical documents located on our website. I hope that the additional citations have helped to address the ratio of primary to secondary sources. Best, Chantelcartercdu (talk) 19:06, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Extended content

Please update the text in the Introduction section with the below: Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science is a private, non-profit, historically black graduate institution (HBGI) and a minority-serving institution located in Willowbrook, unincorporated Los Angeles County, California, United States. It was founded in 1966 in response to inadequate medical access within the Watts region of Los Angeles, California, USA. The university is named in honor of Dr. Charles R. Drew, a pioneering African-American physician who produced seminal work on blood banking and blood plasma storage and transfusion. CDU is recognized as a minority-serving institution by the U.S. Office for Civil Rights, as well as a historically black graduate institution under the U.S. Department of Education's Strengthening Historically Black Graduate Institutions Program, also known as Title III B. CDU is also a member of the Hispanic Association of Colleges and Universities (HACU) and the Thurgood Marshall College Fund. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Done The second paragraph was placed under the Accreditation section.  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) EDIT: Please rename “Academic Programs” to “History” and replace with the below text: Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School was incorporated in the State of California as a private, nonprofit educational institution in 1966 in response to the McCone Commission's recommendations to improve access to healthcare in South Los Angeles following the Watts Riots in 1965. In 1973, Governor Ronald Reagan signed Senate Bill 1026 authored by State Senator Mervyn Dymally to allocate funding and support for the institution from the General Fund to the University of California. In January 1970, the offices of the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School and the Watts-Willowbrook Regional Medical program formally opened at 12012 Compton Avenue, and would serve as the central center for CDU’s operations until the W.M. Cobb Building’s construction in 1984. The building was named for W.M. Montague Cobb, a dear friend of the University's namesake, Dr. Drew, and instructor of many of the school's formative faculty: ""I find it interesting that the proposal (for the building's name) came from colleagues that I have taught," Cobb told about 150 people attending the ceremony in front of the new structure." — Los Angeles Sentinel (December 6, 1984) The Physician Assistant profession began in California as MEDEX at the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School (now "CDU") in 1971. At the time of the program's launch, the CDU campus was not yet a reality and MEDEX students received their instruction from physician faculty at UCLA until March 1973. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Partly-done  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) Please add a level three heading under the History section and name it “Presidents” with the below text: (Please note that the University's presidents were referred to as "deans" prior to the 1980s.) Mitchell Spellman, MD, PhD began his tenure as the founding Executive Dean of the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate School in 1968. He would hold this post until December 1977, when future U.S. Surgeon General David Satcher, MD, PhD, MPH, succeeded him and served from 1977-1979. In 1979, M. Alfred Haynes, MD, MPH, was formally inaugurated as dean of the University. He retired in 1986 and was replaced by Walter F. Leavell, MD, in January 1987. Henry Williams, MD, served as interim president for a brief period before Reed V. Tuckson, MD, assumed leadership of the university in 1991. Following Dr. Tuckson's departure in 1997, W. Benton Boone, MD, served as interim president for that year before Charles K. Francis, MD, assumed the post in 1998. Dr. Francis would hold this post until his eventual ouster in 2004. Harry E. Douglas, III, MD served as interim president during this time until the appointment of Thomas Yoshikawa, MD, in July 2005. Susan Kelly, MD, assumed leadership of the University in 2006. Following her departure in 2008, Keith C. Norris, MD, PhD, served as interim president for a time, as did M. Roy Wilson, MD, MS. Since 2011, the University has been under the leadership of David M. Carlisle, MD, PhD. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Not done This section, which contains mostly names and dates, should be placed as an embedded list.  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) Update 28-MAY-2019 An embedded list containing this information has been created for you and placed at the bottom of this talk page for you to look over.  Spintendo  08:33, 28 May 2019 (UTC) EDIT: Please rename the "School of Nursing" section to "Academic Programs" and replace text with the below: Three schools and colleges are housed on CDU’s 11-acre campus: College of Science and Health, College of Medicine and the Mervyn M. Dymally School Nursing (MMDSON). In May 1978, a proposed agreement between the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School and the UCLA School of Medicine to jointly establish an undergraduate medical program at Drew was formally approved and initially signed to last for twenty years. The partnership was viewed to be beneficial for both the UCLA and Drew communities: "The regents voted unianimously in favor of the agreement following the recommendation of the regent's Educational Policy Committee. It was adopted without amendment." — Los Angeles Sentinel (May 25, 1978) The relationship between the two institutions is still ongoing, as students complete their first two years at UCLA and their third and fourth years, the clinical years, at CDU. The Mervyn M. Dymally School of Nursing opened in 2010 under founding dean Dr. Gloria J. McNeal in direct response to the critical nurse shortage in California, as the state still ranks near the bottom of all states in the number of RNs per capita. The school was the first comprehensive nursing program to open in Southern California in decades, and the first ever of its kind in South Los Angeles. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Partly-done  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) Please add a level three heading under the History section and name it “Return of Residency Training” with the below text: The Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, acting on a motion by Board Chairman Mark Ridley-Thomas and Supervisor Janice Hahn, approved $800,000 in funds to develop two new residency programs at CDU in Psychiatry and Family Medicine in August 2017. Residents began their programs in July 2018. The program approvals marked the return of residency training to the University and, by extension, the wider South Los Angeles community, for the first time since 2007. A Medical School Affiliation Agreement between the County Health Agency and CDU will provide the programs with ongoing support. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Not done The source for the first sentence only references the names of the board chairman and supervisor. The second sentence "marked the return to residency training" is redundant and only referenced by the university. The third sentence is referenced by Youtube. The fourth sentence concerns WP:FUTURE events (i.e., "Agreement between the County Health Agency and CDU will provide the programs with ongoing support.")  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) Please update the Research section with the below text: CDU’s Department of Research and Health Affairs conducts ongoing research on conditions such as hypertension, cancer and HIV/AIDs. The department was initially established as the Office of Research in 1973 to organize the assignment of research activities at the institution and provide a focus for encouraging faculty participation in laboratory activities. In 1979, comedian Richard Pryor gifted the University $100,000 to further its muscular dystrophy research in the Watts area.  At the time, the gift was the largest ever given to CDU by a Black donor and was vital to the continued growth of basic biomedical research at CDU, which was still in early stages of development at the time. Additionally, it enabled CDU to become the first institution in Los Angeles to develop an epidemiological study of muscular dystrophy and related diseases in Los Angeles County – particularly how the crippling disease affected Black and other minority populations, and thus be able to render more effective treatment and services. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Partly-done  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) EDIT: Please update the HIV section with the below text: The university has on-campus clinics, including the SPECTRUM and OASIS Clinics, which offer HIV medical care and testing services, as well as case management, substance abuse counseling, support groups and treatment advocate services to members of L.A. County. All programs and services are located on the southeastern corner of the CDU campus, and are provided regardless of a patient’s ability to pay. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Done  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) Please update the Accreditation section with the below text: In July 2007, the university passed a curriculum review by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges and retaining its accreditation, announcing plans for a new four-year medical school and nursing school in partnership with the University of California. At its meeting on June 17–19, 2009 the Accrediting Commission for Senior Colleges and Universities acted to place the university on Probation due to it having been found to have serious issues of noncompliance with the Commission Standards. The university maintained its accreditation throughout this process and was removed from probation in 2011. In July 2018, the University’s accreditation was officially reaffirmed by WSCUC for a full ten years – the longest time period permitted by the review process – following a visit to the University in March 2018. The School of Nursing was granted initial approval by the California Board of Registered Nursing in June 2009. The Western Association of Schools and Colleges granted its approval in March 2009. In 2011, the School of Nursing was granted initial full accreditation by both the National League for Nursing Accrediting Commission and the Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education. In 2017, the nursing school’s master’s degree and post-graduate APRN certificate programs received accreditation from the Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education (CCNE) for ten years, extending to December 31, 2027. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Not done This information consists mostly of dates and accreditation bodies which should be placed in a list format. The accreditation bodies should also be WikiLinked.  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) EDIT: Please update the Pipeline Programs section with the below text: CDU currently offers pathways to education in medicine, science, research and health to Pre-K to 12th grade students via its pipeline programs, which include Saturday Science Academy-II, Project STRIDE, Opportunity Scholars Public Health Academy, Research Medical Careers Program and CDU Mobile STEM labs. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Not done Per: WP:NOTACATALOG, the listing of these course pathways is similar to what you would find in a college's course catalog.  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) Please update the Association with Martin Luther King, Jr. Hospital section with the below text: Main article: Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital From 1972 to 2006, CDU was associated with the defunct Martin Luther King Jr./Charles R. Drew Medical Center, which closed in 2007. Both the university and associated public hospital fell into serious trouble at the outset of the 21st century. By 2006, several residency programs had to be terminated because they lost accreditation for not meeting the necessary amount of oversight, and the hospital itself was forced into a radical restructuring plan in late 2006. The restructuring caused hospital to sever its ties to the neighboring medical school and terminate support to 248 medical residents. The restructuring caused hospital to sever its ties to the neighboring medical school and terminate support to 248 medical residents. In October 2006, the national Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education informed school officials that it planned to revoke the university's accreditation because of the hospital's upcoming loss of Medicare money; as a result the university voluntarily withdrew its accreditation. On March 6, 2007, officials from the university announced that they would sue Los Angeles County for $125 million for breach of contract, claiming that the restructuring of the hospital gutted the adjacent university. In September 2009, the lawsuit was settled with an agreement under which the county would rent space to the university on favorable terms and the county and university would work together toward the reopening of MLK Hospital. Since the opening in 2015 of the replacement medical center, the Martin Luther King, Jr. Community Hospital, CDU has maintained a close relationship with the facility due to geographical proximity but no longer holds a formal affiliation with the hospital. Reply 18-MAY-2019 Not done This section contained a reference which was not formatted according to CS1.  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC) References

• @Chantelcartercdu: Hi Chantel, I want to thank you for all your time spent on making the improvements that I've suggested. These improvements, such as providing references where there previously were none, as well as re-editing portions of the request (as well as navigating what some have described as my confusing color coding) are all efforts which are most appreciated. Looking at the request which was just submitted, I can plainly see these improvements, so thank you again.
• One aspect of my review of edit requests always includes checking to make sure that the phrasing used in edit requests is properly paraphrased. It is important that the phrasing used is placed in an editor's own words. As you can see here, there are some very minor touch-ups which will need to be done to the first part of your edit request (the text which comes before the list of deans). In an effort to expedite your edit request, I'm going to go ahead and leave that part of the text for you to rephrase while I go on to review and implement the remainder of your request, which as you can see from the copyvio report, is clear of these rephrasing issues.
• Another minor issue would be the 7 sources which you've provided which originate from ProQuest. For these sources I would respectfully ask that you active activate the |quote= parameter of the citation template and insert the quoted text from the source which verifies the claim. This would be most helpful.
• So if you could agree to take care of those two issues, we'll meet back here, and anything which you've re-written and I've yet to review by that time, we can take care of. In the meantime, I'll start the review of everything after the listing of the deans here in just a moment. Thank you for your help!  Spintendo  21:07, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Notes

@Spintendo: Thank you, as always, for your prompt feedback and your encouraging words. I've done my best to address the paraphrasing issue mentioned above by switching up my word choice. Re: the Proquest citations, I counted 11 of those, the bulk of which (9, to be exact) are there to support the President's sub-section. I am unsure of how to insert quoted text into this section without drastically expanding it to be much more than just a list of individuals. To be clear, you would like to me to insert a quote from each source that verifies each individual has been a president/dean of the University? The other two Proquest citations which were a bit more obvious have been supplemented with quotations, per your suggestion. Those can be found in the "History" and "Academic Programs" sections. Thanks so much and have a great weekend. Chantelcartercdu (talk) 23:22, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

@Spintendo: Hello, hoping you're well. Just following up to ensure you received my note last week, and have updated my article even more to address the occurrence of ProQuest citations. I went ahead and completely updated the President's section, and the citations that support that section should now include links that are accessible by the general public. I did, however, leave the two paraphrased sentences that included Proquest references located in the "History" and "Academic Programs" sections. Thanks very much, and have a great weekend. Chantelcartercdu (talk) 22:44, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

@Chantelcartercdu: Hi Chantal, if you could convert the paragraph containing the list of deans/presidents into an embedded list, that would be helpful. The credentials and all incidents where "Dr." is used in the text needs to be removed, per MOS:DOCTOR. You may use the following format for the list:

John Doe	1975–1989
Jane Doe	1989–1991

Also, the information which I had asked to be placed in quotes was not supposed to be entered into the article. Citation Style 1 templates contain a |quote= parameter which is used to enter the quote into the reference itself, like this:

• Juergens, Norbert (29 March 2013). "The Biological Underpinnings of Namib Desert Fairy Circles". Science. 339 (6127): 1618–1621. doi:10.1126/science.1222999. ISSN 0036-8075. The sand termite Psammotermes allocerus generates local ecosystems, so-called fairy circles, through removal of short-lived vegetation that appears after rain, leaving circular barren patches.

The quotes are only necessary in references from ProQuest, which I cannot access. Finally, the large number of references from the university will be limited in what's approved (I've mentioned this earlier, just reminding you). The review should be done shortly. Thank You!  Spintendo  19:33, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

The review has now been completed. Individual sections of the proposal in the extended text section above were addressed using inserted review boxes (please refer to those boxes in the extended text section above). In summary, the sections which were not implemented because changes needed to be made were the following:

1. Two sections one section which would be better placed using embedded lists. (The other section I did for you. It's placed below this post.)
2. One section which needed quotes to be converted to regular prose whose references made use of the |quote= parameter, because the reviewer could not otherwise access their ProQuest-related contents for verification. In two of these cases the claims were entered into the article while the ProQuest references were removed. In place of these references, Citation needed inline templates were appended to the text. (Please note that references using a ProQuest proxy URL will not be accepted by Wikipedia's parser.)
3. One section which contained a reference which was not formatted according to WP:CS1.

For clarity, kindly propose any asked for revisions in a new edit request below. Thank you!  Spintendo  05:54, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I went ahead and created a dean's embedded list for you. A few of the dates still need to be filled in. When ready to proceed, please remember to activate a new edit request to signal that you're ready. Thank you!  Spintendo  08:21, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Mitchell Spellman	1968–1977
David Satcher	1977–1979
M. Alfred Haynes	1979–1986
Walter F. Leavell	1986–1987
Henry Williams	1987–1991
Reed V. Tuckson	1991–1997
W. Benton Boone	1997–1998
Charles K. Francis	1998–2004
Harry E. Douglas	2004–2005
Thomas Yoshikawa	2005–2006
Susan Kelly	2006–2008
Keith C. Norris	2008–?
M. Roy Wilson	?–?
David M. Carlisle	2011–present

References

Edit Request (August 6)

Good afternoon, please implement the following edits into our existing article - I have updated references where necessary. I did receive a piece of feedback that one of my references was not in the proper CS1 style, but could not identify which - if that is still the case for this review round, kindly highlight it so that I may update it as soon as possible. Thanks very much. Best, Chantelcartercdu (talk) 23:54, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Extended content

Please add the below text into the History section : The Physician Assistant profession began in California as MEDEX at the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School (now "CDU") in 1971. At the time of the program's launch, the CDU campus was not yet a reality and MEDEX students received their instruction from physician faculty at UCLA until March 1973. In May 1978, a proposed agreement between the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School and the UCLA School of Medicine to jointly establish an undergraduate medical program at Drew was formally approved and initially signed to last for twenty years. The relationship between the two institutions is still ongoing, as students complete their first two years at UCLA and their third and fourth years, the clinical years, at CDU. Please add a level three heading under the History section and name it “Return of Residency Training” with the below text: The Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, acting on a motion by Board Chairman Mark Ridley-Thomas and Supervisor Janice Hahn, approved $800,000 in funds to develop two new residency programs at CDU in Psychiatry and Family Medicine in August 2017. Residents began their programs in July 2018. The program approvals marked the return of residency training to the University and, by extension, the surrounding South Los Angeles community, for the first time since the closure of the neighboring King-Drew Medical Center in 2007. A Medical School Affiliation Agreement between the County Health Agency and CDU provides the programs with ongoing support. Please add a level three heading under the History section and name it “Presidents” with the below text: Mitchell Spellman 1968–1977 David Satcher 1977–1979 M. Alfred Haynes 1979–1986 Walter F. Leavell 1986–1987 Henry Williams 1987–1991 Reed V. Tuckson 1991–1997 W. Benton Boone 1997–1998 Charles K. Francis 1998–2004 Harry E. Douglas 2004–2005 Thomas Yoshikawa 2005–2006 Susan Kelly 2006–2008 Keith C. Norris 2008–2010 M. Roy Wilson 2010–2011 David M. Carlisle 2011–present Please update the Accreditation section with the below text: At its meeting on June 17–19, 2009 the Accrediting Commission for Senior Colleges and Universities acted to place the university on Probation due to it having been found to have serious issues of noncompliance with the Commission Standards. In July 2011, the university was removed from WASC Probation. In July 2018, the University’s accreditation was officially reaffirmed by WSCUC for a full ten years – the longest time period permitted by the review process – following a visit to the University in March 2018. Please update the Association with Martin Luther King, Jr. Hospital section with the below text: Main article: Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital From 1972 to 2006, CDU was associated with the defunct Martin Luther King Jr./Charles R. Drew Medical Center, which closed in 2007. Both the university and associated public hospital fell into serious trouble at the outset of the 21st century. By 2006, several residency programs had to be terminated because they lost accreditation for not meeting the necessary amount of oversight, and the hospital itself was forced into a radical restructuring plan in late 2006. The restructuring caused hospital to sever its ties to the neighboring medical school and terminate support to 248 medical residents. The restructuring caused hospital to sever its ties to the neighboring medical school and terminate support to 248 medical residents. In October 2006, the national Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education informed school officials that it planned to revoke the university's accreditation because of the hospital's upcoming loss of Medicare money; as a result the university voluntarily withdrew its accreditation. On March 6, 2007, officials from the university announced that they would sue Los Angeles County for $125 million for breach of contract, claiming that the restructuring of the hospital gutted the adjacent university. In September 2009, the lawsuit was settled with an agreement under which the county would rent space to the university on favorable terms and the county and university would work together toward the reopening of MLK Hospital. Since the opening in 2015 of the replacement medical center, the Martin Luther King, Jr. Community Hospital, CDU has maintained a close relationship with the facility due to geographical proximity but no longer holds a formal affiliation with the hospital. References

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Chantelcartercdu (talk • contribs) 23:54, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Reply 6-AUG-2019

  Edit request partially implemented  

1. Y The president list was implemented.
2. N The information concerning MEDEX and the postgraduate medical school was previously declined because of issues with its phrasing and dates. My concerns over phrasings refer to the following: "At the time of the program's launch, the CDU campus was not yet a reality". My concerns over the dates were noted then as: The text states that this agreement is renewable, but does not state whether it was renewed, leaving the reader to conclude that it must have elapsed in 1998.
3. N The information concerning residency training was previously declined because of issues with its phrasing and WP:INTEGRITY. My concerns over the phrasings include the following: "The program approvals marked the return of residency training to the University and, by extension, the surrounding South Los Angeles community, for the first time since the closure of the neighboring King-Drew Medical Center in 2007" which is longwinded; and the phrase "A Medical School Affiliation Agreement between the County Health Agency and CDU provides the programs with ongoing support does not delineate the nature of that support. My concerns over integrity involve the source for the first sentence, which only references the names of the board chairman and supervisor (i.e., The Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, acting on a motion by Board Chairman Mark Ridley-Thomas and Supervisor Janice Hahn[37]). This statement, having the ref tag placed after it, indicates only two things: (a) the names of the board chairman and supervisor, and (b) that the Board of Supervisors acted on their motion. That motion was for: "The Board of Supervisors (to) instruct the Director of the Health Agency or his designee to: 1. Negotiate and execute a readiness agreement by and between the County and Drew in order to provide Drew with needed start-up and/or planning funds" This language does not indicate that the $800K was provided at that time for these two residency programs. Please clarify the importance of this motion in terms of delivering the monies to the University, or whether it was merely a precursor motion by the Board.
4. N The information regarding the MLK hospital is declined because the proposed text omits details of importance from the proposed sources. These details include the nature of the shutdown, which according to the source, was due to years of repeated failures to provide adequate care, including errors involved in multiple deaths.
5. N The information regarding the accreditation bodies was previously not added because this information, which consists mostly of accreditation bodies, decisions, and dates, was not placed in a table format. Also, the accreditation bodies were not Wikilinked. A preferable alternative for how to display this information is shown below:

Example table
Date Accreditation body Status 2009 Western Association of Schools and Colleges Approval 2011 National League for Nursing Accrediting Commission Granted 2011 Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education Granted

Regards,  Spintendo  01:21, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Notes

Request + Question for the Editor (8/13)

@Spintendo: Thank you for your response. We've been working on this for quite some time now, and I just want to take a moment to reiterate my appreciation for your willingness to give precise feedback throughout this process. I'll start with the edit request first to clear up the accreditation and history sections:

Date	Accreditation body	Status
2018	Western Association of Schools and Colleges	Granted
2011	National League for Nursing Accrediting Commission	Granted
2011	Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education	Granted

Please also incorporate the following paragraph into the History section, they have been updated to hopefully address the phrasing conflicts:

The Physician Assistant profession began in California as MEDEX at the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School (now "CDU") in 1971. Following a brief closure of the program beginning in 2011, the physician assistant program returned to CDU in August 2016.

In May 1978, a proposed agreement between the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School (now "CDU") and the UCLA School of Medicine to jointly establish an undergraduate medical program at Drew was formally approved by the California Board of Regents, and the program graduated its first class of fifteen students in 1985. The relationship between the two institutions has continued to this day is still ongoing, as students complete their first two years at UCLA and their third and fourth years, the clinical years, at CDU.

Please add a level three heading under the History section and name it “Return of Residency Training” with the below text it has been updated :

In September 2017, the L.A. County Board of Supervisors voted to allocate $800,000 to CDU to fund two new residency training programs in Family Medicine and Psychiatry. The funds were made available through a Pre-Medical School Affiliation Agreement signed between L.A. County and CDU in October 2017. A Medical School Affiliation Agreement between L.A. County Health Agency and CDU currently provides the programs with support of up to $14.6 million until 2023. Residents began their programs in July 2018, marking the return of residency training to the University for the first time since the closure of the former King-Drew Medical Center in 2007.

Question for the editor

I apologize in advance for piecemealing future edit requests, but I want to ensure that I have a full understanding of how to pursue the next round. With that said, my intention in writing the below response is not to be argumentative, but to offer some additional perspective from my--the author's--standpoint, as well as my employer's.

The information re: residency training may be "longwinded," but I would contend that it is certainly information that is relevant to our article, since residency training did leave the entire community for over 11 years following the closure of the neighboring hospital. That’s highly significant when you take into account there were no doctors training in a chronically medically under-resourced area populated by nearly two million people. To be on the safe side, I have amended the line in the above edit request to omit the impact of the programs' return on the surrounding community, but I'd like to ask that it be reconsidered given the additional context.

My intentions in updating this article, particularly the affiliation with MLK hospital, is certainly not to omit information or be misleading. However, I do believe it’s important that the update reflect how the relationship affected CDU as an institution, versus focusing on the chaos that happened across the street, which was previously the case. With that said, I'd respectfully contend that the information regarding the hospital's "errors involved in multiple deaths" is more appropriate to be listed in the Martin Luther King Jr. Outpatient Center article, or even the Martin Luther King, Jr. Community Hospital's. Simply put, it's their story to tell - not ours. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this point in particular, because I’m very interested in resolving this in a manner that will satisfy both Wiki’s editorial/verifiability standards as well as my employer’s. Above all else, we're interested in figuring out what it takes to have the following line implemented: Since the opening in 2015 of the replacement medical center, the Martin Luther King, Jr. Community Hospital, CDU has maintained a close relationship with the facility due to geographical proximity but no longer holds a formal affiliation with the hospital.

Ultimately, we'd like to be on par with other university articles on this platform (such as Howard University College of Medicine, Meharry Medical College, and Morehouse School of Medicine) that are able to share their history and impact on their respective communities, programs, facts (including the "ups and downs") in a compelling and informative way, but we seem to be limited to only table charts and dry, occasionally outdated data — for instance, the entire sentence and supporting citation about us being accredited in June 2018 for ten years was completely removed from our public-facing article for some reason, and it was not even an edit that was made or requested by me.

My question to you then is, citation errors aside, how do you suggest we present our information to be able to communicate the latest trajectory of our institution in a compelling manner? Am I taking the incorrect approach by trying to "tell a story"? Thank you for your help and guidance in advance. Best, Chantelcartercdu (talk) 23:54, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Reply 13-AUG-2019

@Chantelcartercdu: Allow me to say first that I appreciate wholeheartedly your approach to these edit requests, which up to and including now, has been and continues to be, professional and respectful in circumstances which can frankly seem difficult and confusing for COI editors, given the nature of the edit request review process. Thus, your approach is to be commended. Please know that your questions and concerns will always be warmly received by myself and my colleagues, as we recognize you as a vital partner in implementing changes which benefit the article. With respect to your individual requests presented today, let me take them in order.

1. The information about MEDEX @ Drew as presented is acceptable in whole except for this phrase: The relationship between the two institutions has [sic] continued to this day is [sic] still ongoing, as students complete their first two years at UCLA and their third and fourth years, the clinical years, at CDU. In Wikipedia, it's important for phrases to respect MOS:RELTIME, which is to say that any phrase which speaks of "today" will theoretically be accurate for one day only (i.e., this day, as mentioned in the proposed text) since "this day", like all days, lasts only 24 hours. To state that the relationship lasts to "this day" and therefore may be inaccurate tomorrow is incompatible with the sort of language which Wikipedia tries to use which is described in MOS:RELTIME. There is also the grammatical errors which exists in that statement, which I presume was meant to state "The relationship between the two institutions which has continued to this day is still ongoing..." but fixing this error still does not fix the RELTIME issue, so this sentence needs to be completely reworded.
2. Residents began their programs in July 2018, marking the return of residency training to the University for the first time since the closure of the former King-Drew Medical Center in 2007. The references used for this claim are problematic. The Rothman reference was written by what I'm assuming is an employee of the Los Angeles County Health Agency in a newsletter. That the information appears in a newsletter is not really the issue (although there are other issues with using newsletters in general). The main problem is that the newsletter was published on March 28, 2018, which is almost 2 months before the residents began their programs in July 2018. Sources cannot be used as references for things which they do not witness, which is why sources like newsletters are not the best ones to use — as in this case Dr. Rothman is essentially forecasting her newsletter submission. The other source for this claim was published in 2008, a full 10 years before the events described in the claim occur. This second source is ostensibly used to confirm that the residency program ended in 2007, but the entire claim as a whole is using these two disparate sources to arrive at one conclusion, which cannot be done according to WP:SYNTH.
3. Since the opening in 2015 of the replacement medical center, the Martin Luther King, Jr. Community Hospital, CDU has maintained a close relationship with the facility due to geographical proximity but no longer holds a formal affiliation with the hospital. The nature of this "close relationship" needs to be fleshed out because there will be readers who will not know what type of close relationship these facilities used to have, nor will there be those who understand what a "formal affiliation" normally entails between two facilities when reading that part of the text. If the nature of this closeness is purely geographical, then it makes sense to describe the MLK Jr. facility and CDU only as being geographicaly close rather than describing them as "maintaining a close relationship due to geographical proximity". I can see how describing the two facilities in the latter sense as opposed to the former does have a compelling narrative quality to it. In essense, a description of having a "close relationship" anthropomorphizes the two facilities as being somewhat like a close friendship as two friends might have. But this narrative is not one that is sustainable on Wikipedia, and good-faith attempts at making the text compelling need to be limited to using explanatory prose to tell readers why something is important.

I hope this helps to revise the statements above so that their entire paragraphs may be added to the article. I have added the table you proposed to the Accreditation section since it is more relevant there. If you have any other concerns or questions please don't hesitate to ask. Thank you! Regards,  Spintendo  04:08, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Edit request (October 25)

Extended content

I have updated the phrasing re: our history with UCLA below. Please also note that your “concerns over the dates” are in regard to our MD program with UCLA, not the MEDEX/Physician Assistant program. With these clarifications in mind, please see below for the new proposed text, to be inserted into the “History” section: The Physician Assistant profession began in California as MEDEX at the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School (now "CDU") in 1971. CDU MEDEX students received their instruction from physician faculty at UCLA until March 1973, when they moved to what was then known as the Martin Luther King, Jr. General Hospital in Watts. Following a brief closure of the program beginning in 2011, the physician assistant program returned to CDU in August 2016. In May 1978, a proposed agreement between CDU and the UCLA School of Medicine to jointly establish an undergraduate medical program at Drew was formally approved by the California Board of Regents, and the program graduated its first class of fifteen students in 1985. The relationship between the two institutions is still ongoing - students complete their first two years at UCLA and their third and fourth years, the clinical years, at CDU. --- Re: residency training, I’d like to respectfully contest your assessment of the validity of the Dr. Rothman source. Though the article was published on March 28, 2018, the event she discussed was Match Day 2018, which took place on March 18 – she was not forecasting anything in that regard, only reporting. Within the article she discussed the effects that the closure of the MLK Hospital 11 years prior had on CDU’s ability to train physicians – she was not forecasting anything then, either. With that said, I have sought to be more mindful with the placement of my citations to better and more accurately support my claims. Please see below, and add a level three heading under the History section titled “Return of Residency Training”: In September 2017, the L.A. County Board of Supervisors voted to allocate $800,000 to CDU to fund two new residency training programs in Family Medicine and Psychiatry. The funds were made available through a Pre-Medical School Affiliation Agreement signed between L.A. County and CDU in October 2017. A Medical School Affiliation Agreement between L.A. County Health Agency and CDU currently provides the programs with support of up to $14.6 million until 2023. Residents began their programs in July 2018, marking the return of residency training to the University for the first time since the closure of the former King-Drew Medical Center in 2007. --- Please see below for my proposed updates for the 'Affiliation with Martin Luther King Hospital' section. Keeping your feedback from a few rounds ago in mind about maintaining details of importance regarding the closure, I have done my best to rewrite the section to be as informative and objective as possible in recalling the history of the two institutions' affiliation and subsequent disaffiliation. However, I stand firm on the belief that there are certain facts about the closure that would be more appropriately suited for the Martin Luther King Jr. Outpatient Center's article, or even the Martin Luther King, Jr. Community Hospital's. My intention in updating this section is to better communicate to readers how the relationship affected CDU as an institution, versus focusing on the chaos that happened across the street. I think that's a fair angle, seeing as how the University was in no way responsible for anyone's death. That responsibility lies with the negligence of the former hospital and its then-employees. I hope you can understand my perspective. Both Martin Luther King Jr Hospital and Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science sprang from the same social inequities that sparked the Watts Riot in 1965: a lack of accessible health care in South Los Angeles. Originally slated to be named the Los Angeles Southeast County Southeast General Hospital, it became the Martin Luther King Jr. Hospital following the civil rights leader's assassination in 1968. By a unanimous vote of the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, the hospital was renamed the “Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Medical Center” in May 1982, in recognition of the role the medical school played in training the hospital’s physicians. The relationship continued for the next two decades. However, the university and associated public hospital fell into serious trouble at the outset of the 21st century. The hospital itself was forced into a radical restructuring plan in 2006, which caused the hospital to sever its ties to CDU and terminate support to 248 medical residents. In October 2006, management of the hospital was transferred to another county hospital, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, and King/Drew became Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital. Also in October 2006, the national Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education informed CDU officials that it planned to revoke the university's accreditation because of the hospital's upcoming loss of Medicare money; as a result the university voluntarily withdrew its accreditation. With the closing of the physician-training programs, the assumption of hospital management by Harbor-UCLA and the formal change of the hospital’s name, the break between Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital and Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science was complete. On March 6, 2007, officials from CDU announced that they would sue Los Angeles County for $125 million for breach of contract, claiming that the restructuring of the hospital gutted the University. In June 2007, the school began an 18-month rebranding effort aimed at preventing people from associating the school with the continuing ordeals of King-Harbor. In September 2009, their 2007 lawsuit was settled with an agreement under which the county would rent space to the university on favorable terms and the county and university would work together toward the reopening of MLK Hospital. In 2015, a new and private nonprofit inpatient facility, Martin Luther King, Jr. Community Hospital, was opened on the county-owned site of the King-Harbor Hospital. Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science has no teaching or operational ties to the new hospital. References

@Spintendo:Happy Friday. Please see below above for my latest edit request. Thanks, Chantelcartercdu (talk) 19:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Reply 25-OCT-2019

1. The Physician Assistant profession began in California as MEDEX at the Charles R. Drew Postgraduate Medical School (now "CDU") in 1971.[1] CDU MEDEX students received their instruction from physician faculty at UCLA until March 1973, when they moved to what was then known as the Martin Luther King, Jr. General Hospital in Watts. The first sentence calls this program MEDEX. The second sentence clarifies that the program is now called CDU. The third sentence then refers to the students as CDU MEDEX students. Are these the students that went to the program when it was called MEDEX or when it was called CDU? The prose is referring to them using both old and new terms. Please clarify.
2. ...marking the return of residency training to the University for the first time since the closure of the former King-Drew Medical Center in 2007. The Rothman source states the following (I've bolded the problematic text): The programs are the first graduate medical programs to operate on the MLK Campus since the closure of King-Drew Medical Center more than a decade ago. The programs will start in July with an incoming class of 8 Family Medicine interns and 6 Psychiatry residents. Your proposed text words it as "the return of residency training was marked for the first time since 2007." My question asks marked by whom? It doesnt matter whether the Match Day event took place on March 18 or March 28 — the date for the event she was mentioning "the return of residency training" didn't take place until July - Rothman mentions that herself when she states "The programs will start in July". The Rothman source cannot be used for a claim that the university "marked" the return of students 4 months before the program officially began. Rothman should have worded it more like this: "In four months time, those classes will begin — and when they do, it will mark the return of residents for the first time since 2011." That is how she should have worded it, and its for that reason that it can't be stated using Wikipedia's voice, because when Rothman said that, it hadn't happened yet. Sources can only report on what they see. If I make a visit to the site of a new store which is being built in March, and I remark to reporters that "the store will open in 4 months", the reporters ought not use me as the source for the store as opening in July — especially if, for example, there had been delays in the opening and the store hadn't really opened until September. Using my remarks to a reporter as the source for the store opening would be folly for any reporter who got the date wrong, and they would know that a person making a remark about a future event is not a good source to use about the event happening — even if that event happened exactly as the person forcasted it would.
3. There are a few problems with the third section, I'll give you 6 for now:
   1. A page number is missing from the McCone commission report, which is 62 pages in length
   2. Generic terms such as "fell into serious trouble" are to be either avoided or described, when here you've added it and not described it. One person's idea of trouble is different from another
   3. "Sprang from the same social inequit(ies) that sparked the Watts Riot in 1965: a lack of accessible health care in South Los Angeles" you've worded it using the plural inequities — but you've listed only one inequity — access to health care. What was the other inequity?
   4. "The hospital itself was forced into a radical restructuring plan" - Forced by whom?
   5. "The hospital's upcoming loss of Medicare money" - Upcoming now or upcoming then, this is more use of RELTIME which needs to be avoided
   6. "As a result the university voluntarily withdrew its accreditation." Accreditations are bestowed upon an entity by the accreditation committee. That same committee can be said to both giveth and taketh. To "withdraw" from something means to pull away from it, and can only be done by the one doing the pulling. Someone who is fired loses access to their paycheck. It could be said that they are "withdrawing their employed services" because its those services that they supplied, and thus could pull away from their employer. But they could not state that they were "withdrawing their income" because the employer is the one who supplies that. If the term "income" is the focus of that sentence, It would be more accurate to state that they are "pushing" the income away. So the University withdrawing an acceditation that they received from someone else cannot be stated that way. A term which indicates the direction the "given up" accreditation is going would help to determine if it's being resigned, withdrawn, given up, taken away, etc., and who or what is performing those actions, be it the university or the committee. The original wording was that the university withdrew something, because the image of "withdrawing" — meaning to give it up of their own volition — that is seen as a more noble act for someone to perform than to have something "taken away". But I dont think that's the most correct analogy to use here.

Regards,  Spintendo  03:12, 26 October 2019 (UTC)