Talk:Cherry blossom/GA1

GA Review

Passed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:09, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 16:56, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Preliminary comments

Extended content

This article, while interesting and at first glance not too badly cited, seems to me to have a major structural problem: it consists of two completely different articles. The first is what might be called Sakura or Cherry blossom in Japan; the second, in chapter 6 "By country and region", is a list of some 19 countries (but apparently not regions?); it should probably be a separate list article List of countries celebrating cherry blossom, or something of that sort. The current composite is extremely uneven – massive textual detail on Japan, rapid summary on each of the other countries; it makes the article lengthy, awkward, and unbalanced; and it just doesn't "work" as a single article, so this will be a quick-fail (WP:UNDUE coverage of one or other of the 2 subjects) if the list is not removed.
(If this reply should be put below everything else, please move it or let me know - doing it this way just makes responses to specific comments clearer) I see the justification for splitting off the list of countries (List of countries that cultivate cherry blossoms?). I will propose it on the talk page, and there will be a sort of - placeholder to demonstrate what the resulting article will look like without the huge list of countries in that proposal. (As a note, the chapter did at one point have subheadings that distinguished regions and not just countries, but at some point that came to no longer be the case and it was never changed.) Recon rabbit 18:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Replying inline like this is much the best. There is no value to having part of a GAN discussion on the talk page, indeed it's undesirable as it starts multiple threads and different people may see different things. Suggest we just bring it back here.
Cherry blossom cultivation by country has been made, though I would like to get at least one other person's input before completing the split on this page. Recon rabbit 20:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks. I'm not sure what we might be waiting for: if you've done the split then we simply need to remove the material from the article here, as we obviously can't have the list both here and separately. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:01, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've finished it. Will start working on the citation needed tags now. Recon rabbit 21:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One might wonder why we should have a Sakura article as well as the existing Hanami (and why Hanami gets italics when Sakura does not?), and there is certainly some overlap, but I suppose that having an article on the blossomy trees, and an article on the viewing of them, is a defensible split.
It's probably appropriate to italicize Sakura. I'd say the split is more down to the difference between the practices surrounding the trees and the trees themselves (the ornamental varieties and cultivars of cherry trees). Cherry blossom is just the 'common name' for broad usage as far as I am aware. Recon rabbit 18:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's fine.

Rather than review all the text and images, I suggest we go ahead with splitting off the list article, and then we can review what is left. I note in passing (not a GA matter) that the list will need a brief paragraph on 'Japan', with a "main" link to this article.

Comments

Lead section contains fifteen refs, of which eleven, namely nos [5]–[15], are not repeated in the article body. The MOS states that the lead should only summarize the article body, not introduce "new" materials. I suggest we remove all fifteen from the lead, which will entail moving the eleven unrepeated ones into the article body, probably along with the text that they cite.

Most of the 'Gallery' will need to be removed or distributed over the list article; I note in passing that it is rather Canada-heavy but that won't be this article's problem either.
Done: Only saved the image from Sweden as it is a location where the ornamental cherry tree is not endemic. Recon rabbit 20:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~The article itself can have a "See also" link to the split-off list.~~

A more minor issue is the number of uncited claims, but since this is readily fixable I don't see it as grounds for a quick-fail in itself. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done: At least, all cn tags have been addressed. Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"the pistil changes like a leaf" - not sure what this means, please reword.
Done Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"cherry blossom seeds" -> "cherry seeds".
Done Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Cherry ... leaves are edible........ Since the leaves contain coumarin, which is toxic...": these statements are basically incompatible; perhaps we should say "edible in small quantities", or something of that sort.
Done Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yoshino cherry is written "Somei-Yoshino" in its article, but as Somei Yoshino and "Somei-yoshino" here. Let's go with the standard format, i.e. caps, hyphen, not italics.
Every permutation has been changed to 'Somei-yoshino'. Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The section 'Blooming season' mentions "cherry-blossom viewing" (i.e. Hanami), so it would be best to move the section after "Flower viewing in Japan".
Done Recon rabbit 16:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest renaming "Flower viewing in Japan" to the more explicit "Hanami: Flower viewing in Japan" to match the section's text.
Done Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"where many of the game's trees bloom with cherry blossoms." -> "where many of the game's trees are flowering cherries."
Done Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"embodied in the concept of mono no aware.[32]" Please add a gloss "(the pathos of things)" after the Japanese term here. I do wonder whether a somewhat more detailed discussion of the concept would not be appropriate here, as it seems to have driven the whole of sakura and perhaps hanami as well?
Gloss added, considering a more detailed discussion after the section is split into headings as described below. Recon rabbit 16:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, why not create subsections of 'Symbolism in Japan', as there are separate and major topics covered here without distinction. I'd suggest:

4 Symbolism in Japan

4.1 Mono no aware: the pathos of things (first half of first paragraph, with additional material to be written)

4.2 Nationalism and militarism

4.3 Irezumi: Japanese tattoos (and the term needs to be in italics in the text)

4.4 Popular uses (unless you are sure these are all mono no aware: if so, merge)

Done though Mono no aware has not been expanded much as I do not have immediate access to most of these texts. Recon rabbit 20:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Images

Taking from the discussion that the article's subject is "Sakura" or "Japanese ornamental cherry blossom" or equivalent title, I'll assume that the "Gallery" will be removed and will not therefore review those images here (though the Osaka Castle image is fine if you want to put it somewhere in the text). It is a moot point whether images of Sakura in other parts of the world will be appropriate to the article, but given that these represent Japanese influence, I see no reason why they can't be used here and there.

The choice of the first lead image as the Oshima Cherry in Jardin des Plantes is a bit of a test case; my view is that the lead should contain exactly one image, and I'd suggest one from Japan, such as "Yachounomori Garden, Tatebayashi, Gunma, Japan"; the other images should be moved into the article body.
Done Recon rabbit 20:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All the images are from Commons and are plausibly licensed there.

"Cherry blossoms in Seattle" does not appear to be of any distinctive variety and does not seem to be associated in any way with the text, so I suggest we delete it.
Done Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Hiroshige print should have its date, 1858, at the end of the image caption.
Done Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please repeat the ref from the text in the caption for "Jindai-zakura [ja], a 2,000-year-old Prunus itosakura".
Done Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A citation is needed for the caption "The Japan national rugby union team is nicknamed the "Brave Blossoms", and have sakura embroidered on their chests"; the claim needs to be repeated in the section text.
Done Recon rabbit 16:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll note in passing that the rugby image is a very small detail of a much larger image, so the quality is poor. It seems surprising that this is the best photo of a rugby shirt that can be found, but if so, it would be an idea to place a photo request for someone to take a photo for the article on the talk page (not a GA requirement).

An image to support the militarism symbolism would be very helpful (not a GA requirement).

Sources

[6] "Are cherry trees" needs a date.
Done: Only access date is possible here. Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[7] "Basic knowledge" - needs date, |language=Japanese tag, |title= in Japanese and |trans-title= in English.
Done Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[28] needs date and author (14 July 2023; Skidmore, Maya).
Done: Reference is now [22] Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[58]: "Brandow Samuels, Gayle." - what is that?
Done: Now it's "Brandow Samuels, Gayle (3 January 2005). Enduring Roots: Encounters with Trees, History, and the American Landscape. Rutgers University Press. p. 75." Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[59] needs a date.
Done: Only access date is possible here. Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[61] Huxley needs page number or subsection/entry name.
I removed the Huxley source and replaced it with a more current one that I could find (Cherries 2017). The other location was already sourced to Trees of Britain and Europe. Recon rabbit 20:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cultivars list: this has 5 citations at top, but 7 of the items are cited to 2 more sources. What does this mean, that all the other items are cited to all 5 of the top sources? It looks piecemeal, and is very hard to verify. Suggest you do as for [68] Katsuki 2017 and repeat each source for each variety in the list that it verifies. We only need one (or perhaps two) sources per variety.
Done: [59] provides reference on all of these cultivars and [58] indicates the existence of a database of same. I added more specific references on each name when they were indicated in the sources. Recon rabbit 20:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Refs used repeatedly with different page numbers, like Katsuki 2015 (e.g. [15] [17] [22] [30] etc) - will be better to list the book citation once in 'Sources' (after 'References') and then reference this with {{sfn|Katsuki|2015|pp=40–56}}, etc, rather than repeating the citation over and over (or worse, displaying page numbers in the text with the rp tag). And by the way, the book is in Japanese, so it needs tags as for [7] above.
I already screwed this one up. Will correct it to sfn; I'm just too used to Rp. Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide Japanese title and language tag for all items written in Japanese. You might consider providing a transliteration of the Japanese title, too.
Should be Done Recon rabbit 16:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reference style: we have some authors like "Bandini, Rosemary" and and some like "Ivan Morris". Suggest we use "Last, First" throughout, which will be automatic if you use |last= and |first= parameters as standard.
Working on this now. Recon rabbit 17:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that Japanese names are given in different ways in the text. At the top of 'Flower viewing in Japan' we have parentheses in two different forms: "sakura (桜 or 櫻; さくら or サクラ) or ume (plum) trees." Why is the Japanese script not given for ume?
Text has been standardized in that location. Recon rabbit 18:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Further down the section we have "Usuzumi-zakura [ja]" very properly in an inter-language link (ill) tag, without the Japanese name being displayed in the main text. Is this a deliberate choice not to trouble the reader when names are less commonly used, as for individual trees? If so it's reasonable.
The individual trees don't have script names written out because it's not particularly useful to the reader to have them in-text, especially when they can just go to the ill. Better to use the text for generic terms such as "weeping cherry" or "ume" Recon rabbit 20:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Summary

This article is almost ready for GA, most of the items noted being very minor and I hope speedily fixed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to think I've addressed everything that needs addressing here, other than maybe expanding upon Mono no aware? Recon rabbit 20:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great work. I think the article now clearly covers "the main points". There is scope for expanding the Mono no aware aspect later (on the rocky road to FAC). It's a GA. If you have time to pick an article from the GAN list to review, that'll be much appreciated. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.