Jump to content

Talk:Conquest of Majorca

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Copyedit

[edit]

Alright, this is going to take some more time than the last two articles I copyedited as part of the blitz going on right now. As I go, I'm going to throw in some questions about things I didn't fix just to make sure I am not presumptuous in doing so. I'll add to this list as I go, so it'll start really short and get longer.

Lead
  • The Latin motto is, in my view, unnecessary, especially if not provided with a translation. Per WP:LEAD, the lead paragraph should only summarize the article's content and in general should not contain new citations. If the quotation is important, I would suggest moving it below the lead paragraph and also providing a translation. Noting that the pact would allow for anyone to share in the spoils of war is sufficient for the purposes of the lead paragraph.
  • Is it important to say, "An annual capitation tax was levied"? That feels like it would fit somewhere below the lead, and isn't really important here.

LazyBastardGuy 19:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't able to locate a cited translation of the latin quote that's why I left it as is. The basic message is contained in the previous line "It was open and promised conditions of parity for all who wished to participate". So I imagine it's not necessary in the lead.
Relocating "An annual capitation tax was levied"? - The line doesn't seem to be fully in context in the lead so go ahead and remove. I'm also noticing that not much is said about tax further down in the body so it's not relevant enough to be in the lead in any case.EagerToddler39 (talk) 10:05, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again per WP:LEAD, the lead section doesn't need citations. I will admit I don't usually read history articles here on Wikipedia, but my impression is that the lead should summarize the event for which the article is named, as generally as possible, from start to finish and then reviewing the impact that event had on world history (only if deemed necessary). Consequently, I think the existing citations should be moved, but the problem here is that the facts to which they are appended do not necessarily appear below; specifically, the very last sentence of the lead section has a citation that appears in the rest of the article, but I did not see that specific fact appear elsewhere. I suggest removing all citations from the lead and integrating what they were attached to into the article as best you can; the lead should not present new information and so, especially in a case like this, does not need new citations up there. LazyBastardGuy 16:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Background
  • When we say "Jews, Christians and Muslim merchants" do we mean that only the Muslims specifically were merchants? That didn't seem likely to me so I changed it to reflect merchants belonging to all three religious categories.
  • "Governor" --> "governor" (it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me to capitalize right there)
  • "...then still having traces of the presence of the Roman Empire..." What is this even trying to say? I feel like there's a way to boil it down but I just can't find it, and at best it doesn't seem relevant to me.
Almoravid and Almohad Empire
  • "three walled enclosures" Is this trying to say "three enclosures that were walled" or "three-walled enclosures [implying enclosures created using three walls apiece]"?
  • When you say "Medina" here, you mean "Medina Mayurqa", right? The only other Medina I know of is a quarter of a world away on the Arabian Peninsula...

LazyBastardGuy 16:54, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Background - 1). It means merchants from all three groups. 3) I believe that it's important to indicate that the Romans once controlled the city of Palma, Majorca's major town, and that they still held some amount of control up to that point.
Almoravid and Almohad Empire - 1) The meaning is "three enclosures that were walled". 2) Yes the reference made is to Medina Mayurga. EagerToddler39 (talk) 03:25, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Preparations
  • I checked the word "corsair" in my dictionary, and it says it can refer to either a pirate or a pirate ship. More of a minor point, but if we're trying to say something to the effect of neutralizing Barbary pirates who used Majorca as a safe haven then I would recommend we use a word with a more clear meaning.
    • Corsairs can be replaced with pirates. (ET)
Catalan Courts assembly
  • "Their economic interests were connected to any future conquests of the monarch." I'm having a hard time figuring this one out, and I'm not sure our readers would have an easier time of it either.
    • Means they were set to profit financial from any subsequent conquests on which the monarch embarked. (ET)
  • In the same paragraph, it says these families "formed the minority leadership of the city" and then goes on to state that they were "also the leaders of the city government". At the least, this sounds redundant to me.
    • This is the Spanish phrase I was translating from page 58 of the source "un grupo de familias de la alta burguesía que configuraron la minoría rectora de la ciudad a partir del siglo XIII ... fueron también los dirigentes del gobierno ciudadano." Basically it indicates that, though the upper class made up the city's minority, they were the leaders of the city government. (ET)
  • "...chosen the option of Majorca." So these councils were called to decide where to lead a conquest and Majorca was one of the options? That's what I'm getting here, and if that's the case I would like to make this a bit more clear in the article.
    • Actually the beginning of the section under Preparations makes this clear. The two options were Valencia and the Balearic Islands. This statement is also specific to that "discussed the desirability of carrying out a military campaign against the Balearic Islands or Valencia". What you could perhaps change the wording from Majorca → Balearic Islands. (ET)
  • "...a fact which may have encouraged the young king..." I know I'm just sprucing-up the article to make it more readable, but I couldn't help but notice this bit, which comes-off to me as a bit... of a stretch. I could be wrong, but just wanted to make sure.
    • I believe this is perfectly in line with the source and within the context of the paragraph. The intent is to establish that his religious affiliations may have influenced his choice of the Balearics. However if you don't think that argument is warranted you could go ahead and delete. (ET)

LazyBastardGuy 17:15, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Participants
  • "King James took the cross in Lleida in April 1229." What does this mean? Is this figurative or literal?
    • This means that I translated poorly. I've double-checked and the source indicates that he "brought the crusade to LLeida". However the statement doesn't seem relevant enough to remain so you could remove it. (ET)
  • "...or Italian cities such as Genoa." Does this mean historians are uncertain as to whether the Catalans collaborated with Provençal cities or Italian ones? Did they alternately collaborate and then not collaborate at times?
    • Get your point. Should read 'and'. (ET)
  • I removed the link to the Spanish Wikipedia article on the mesnaderos. In article space, we should avoid links to other-language editions of Wikipedia because they will be of no use to general English readers. However, the word is now undefined; could you provide a definition that we can insert parenthetically?
    • Actually that is a matter of preference as there is no strict policy on it. Some of us think it's helpful to direct persons to the Spanish version of an article not available in English because readers can always use Google inline translate to decipher some amount of meaning. Purists, like you, are against it. Strictly a matter of choice I believe. My understanding of this Spanish military term is that mesnaderos were a group of men who fought directly under the command of the king. In more general terms I believe it's simply the king's army. (ET)
  • There are a lot of names in this article. Some specifically refer to people who provided means by which to carry out the conquest, but others (like the list of nobles in the last paragraph of this section) do not appear to be as relevant. If you want I can go through the article again and show you places where there seem to be too many names of people whose importance for being identified by name isn't explained.
    • I've gone through and remove some. Delete any that I've left that you don't think should be included. (ET)
Papal bull and final preparations
  • Sometimes in the article, it's spelled with an accent, other times it's not, but either way, which is correct: "Aragon" or "Aragón"?
    • I've attempted to normalize this spelling. However it's still accented in the books titles or file names in which it is used. (ET)
  • I'm guessing "the Conqueror" is James I, but it's too informal in its use here, so I would simply replace that with the name of whomever it refers to.
  • What is a tárida? It may be defined in the words immediately following, but even if so, I recommend simply replacing this with an English-language synonym or explaining this one parenthetically. It could be a specific type of ship developed by this culture for all I know, so it may need to remain in its native language. But I don't know for certain, so it needs to be explained.
Tárida is a ship to transport troops and goods, very used in the Mediterranean. You are missing an article for it. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...even before the Castillian,..." the Castillian what?
  • What day was the "day of Our Lady of August" and why is it identified as such in the article?
  • What does it mean to "lead" a ship, as Nicholas Bonet is said to have led a ship that was also intended to lead the fleet itself?
  • Actually, looking at the entire sentence is confusing to me. I'll put it here in full: "The ship, on which Guillermo de Montcada travelled, was led by Nicholas Bonet and was ordered to be at the forefront, with captain Carroz to the rear, while the galleys were arranged in a circle surrounding the transport ships to safeguard them."
    • Here's my copyedited version: "The ship on which Guillermo de Montcada travelled was captained by Nicholas Bonet and was ordered to be at the forefront of the fleet, with Captain Carroz's ship to the rear, and the galleys [whatever those are, I assumed they were just parts of a ship but they may also be more than that, I don't know] arranged in a circle surrounding hte transport ships to safeguard them."
Galleys are ships to transport warfare stuff. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I've noticed throughout the whole article is sentences that end in claims that need to be cited but aren't. You may have already provided citations for them, in which case it is merely indicative of poor citation placement. In general, when placing citations, do your best to put them in places where they verify the most possible material at once, and use the same citation more than once in a paragraph if necessary. That's not really pertinent to a copyedit, but I feel all the feedback I have to offer would be useful. ;)

LazyBastardGuy 20:18, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Armies
  • Fat Allâh (in Fautil•la) What's with the dot here?
  • Who had the army with the figures listed at the end of the paragraph? It's not clear here.
  • "...whose bands were tied to a wooden stick." Is this trying to tell us how the weapon differed from the basic design of a slingshot? If so, I would replace "whose" with "except its".
It's a similar weapon called fustíbalo in Spanish, you are missing an article for it. Roblefuerte (talk) 18:41, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I put "several enemy tents at once" because I'm assuming that's what it meant.
Conquest
  • "...between 800 and 1,500 men and 15,000 soldiers." What's the difference between men & soldiers here?
Men were men without militar training, soldiers were men trained. There is a big difference. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The part beginning at "...and received no military support," and lasting to the end of that paragraph makes no sense. If they received no military support from those places, then there was no "as much as possible" about it. I think whoever wrote this was trying to say, "...but tried to halt the Christian offensive as much as possible anyway."
  • Is Peter Martell the name given in the source? That doesn't sound like a name that would have been around at the time, and the wikilink provided (which I have since removed) leads to an article about a guy who lived long after all this was said and done.
The original name was Pere Martell (Pere means Peter in Catalan) and he was an expert sailor that new the Balearic Islands, so he was one of the participants at the assembly celebrated in Barcelona and one of the leaders of the campaign due to the knowledge he had of the Balearic Islands. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

LazyBastardGuy 04:44, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Portopí
  • I notice several times the use of the term "the medina", but does that just refer to Medina Mayurqa? If so, I would recommend simply replacing all instances of "the medina" with "Medina Mayurqa" (especially since the dictionary I have defines a "medina" as a type of North African town, but since this island is way north of Africa I'm guessing that's not applicable here).
Medina means city in Arab. In the article always refers to the City of Palma de Mallorca, aka Medina Mayurca. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Siege of Medina Mayurqa and the pacification of the island
  • I'm a little concerned that the spelling of Medina is not consistent, much like the use of "the medina" and "Medina Mayurqa" I noticed above. We need to stick to one spelling and one spelling alone; it doesn't do readers much good to jump between spellings in the article.
In Spanish it is spelled as medina in the article because we are aware of that due to all the different medinas in Spain, just to let you know. In English it could be good to use only one spelling. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ben Abed wanted to provide hostages? Is that literally what the source says?
  • "The Wali assured that from then on every Saracen would be worth twice as much." Twice as much what?
It means that every man would be worth two men. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Taking of Medina Mayurqa
  • Why does the main gate have so many names and why are they important enough to be mentioned in the article?
They are important so we know where the main gates of the city of Palma de Mallorca were. If we don't know where the gates are, we wouldn't know where the camp was set, and we wouldnt know where everything was. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the Diocesan Museum of Majorca, there is a medieval picture with a fight scene in the altarpiece of San Jorge developed by the Flemish painter, Peter Nisart." This sounds like it should be the caption of a picture, and otherwise not all that important.
  • "...literary information according to the epic atmosphere of the campaign..." Clarify?
Dispute over the division of the spoils
  • What is a pavorde?

LazyBastardGuy 23:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Muslim resistance
  • Really confusing sentence here: "A group of rebels were found there and they surrendered on condition that they agreed not to receive assistance from other Moorish groups who were in the mountains."
Muslim perspective
  • When you say it was found on a CD, you mean a literal compact disc, right? If so, I want to wikilink the term.
Yes, it was a Compact Disc. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the second translation effort was in 2009, when was the first one?
  • What do "medietas regis" and "medietas magnatis" mean?
You need articles for those terms, because it was the way they divided the loot between the nobles and the king. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Distribution of land and property

Just one nitpick: Gave them lesser "jurisdiction". I'm assuming this meant the law didn't apply to them as much as it did to common folk, but jurisdiction means "the official power to make legal decisions and judgments", "the extent of such power", "a system of law courts: a judicature" or "the territory or sphere of activity over which the legal authority of a court or other institution extends". I don't think any of those four definitions, all gathered from my handy dandy dictionary, are the intended meaning here, and they certainly don't seem relevant to me.

Medieta regis and medieta magnatis
  • "In turn the monarch divided this part among the military orders that supported the conquest, mainly the Knights Templar, the infants, officers and the men in their charge and the free men and the cities and towns." I'm assuming this refers to the 817 estates, and that the free men were of the "cities and towns", which themselves are ambiguous since we can't tell from this which ones are being referred to (I'm guessing Barcelona and the like), and I'm certain the estates would not have passed into the ownership of these towns so far away.
  • Is the "infant Alfonso" the first-born of James I? If not, whose?
Consequences
  • "regnum Maioricarum et insulae adyacentes" What does this translate to? I see it as important for being in the article but its inclusion warrants a translation.
Translates to: the kingdom of Mallorca and the surrounding islands. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same goes for "Universitat de la Ciutat i Regne de Mallorca", which I also put in quotes in the article (at least for the time being).
  • "...mechanisms were not provided for their conversion to Christianity..." What mechanisms? Does this mean they were not given instructions on how to convert to Christianity?
You need more than instructions to be a Christian. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • When we say the king's name was commemorated via naming streets, which king does it refer to, James I or II? I'm guessing the first so I specified him.
It is obviously the first, as he is the one treated in the article. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mythology
  • Who is "Pere Martell"?
It was questioned up here before and answered. Roblefuerte (talk) 07:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Art
  • Who painted the other winning picture and what was it called?

Alright, we're done, but I will still be here for any further feedback. The blitz ends soon, but my involvement with this article will not until it is escorted to an acceptable standard from which you can then proceed with general cleanup to the GA. Good luck! LazyBastardGuy 21:04, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Conquest of Majorca. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:42, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Conquest of Majorca. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:35, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Conquest_of_Majorca&oldid=1206776314"