Talk:Fourth out

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Page Title[edit]

Suggest 'Fourth out' be renamed to 'Fourth Out' to match title case conventions.

That goes against article naming policy. Feel free to add a redirect, though. --Locarno 15:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

A Real-Life Case[edit]

[Described here (text by yours truly) is an actual case of a possible fourth out. Feel free to add it to the article.]

A "fourth out" situation presented itself on July 1, 1989 in a game at Yankee Stadium. The New York Yankees led the Milwaukee Brewers by a score of 4-1. In the home half of the eighth inning, the Yankees had Mike Pagliarulo on third base and Bob Geren on first with one out. Attempting to "squeeze" the runner home with a bunt, Wayne Tolleson managed only a pop fly. Brewer pitcher Jay Aldrich caught the ball in the air and threw to first baseman Greg Brock, catching Geren before he could return for an inning-ending double play, after which the teams left the field as is customary.

However, Pagliarulo had already crossed home plate before the third out was recorded. Had a Milwaukee player promptly obtained the ball and touched third base, Pagliarulo would have been called out for leaving the base before the catch. The "fourth" out on Pagliarulo would have taken priority, erasing the out on Geren, and no run would have scored. Because the team had neglected to do so, plate umpire Larry Barnett had no choice but to signal to the official scorer that Pagliarulo had indeed scored a run.

The Brewers failed to score in the ninth, and the Yankees won. The scoreboard operator remained unaware of the situation, and thus hardly anyone in attendance knew that the final score had been 5-1 rather than 4-1. Had the Brewers scored three runs and still lost the game, their oversight would have assumed significance.

[Retrosheet game ID: ] WHPratt (talk) 15:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I would bet the scoreboard operator made a different mistake. Many people wrongly think that a runner has been "forced" out when s/he is put out trying to tag up after a caught fly ball. (Actually, a runner is forced only when s/he must *advance* to avoid having two runners on the same base.) Runs don't score when the third out of the inning is on a runner forced to advance (which may include the batter-runner, who is forced to advance to first base). SEppley (talk) 13:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't anyone know of a major league baseball game where the fourth out was made? The example above is only a game where the fourth out was not made. SEppley (talk) 13:18, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Uncaught third strike[edit]

Would this fit under any of the examples in this article, since, if a batter-runner is safe on the third strike, the pitcher is still credited with a strikeout, but the defense now has to record a fourth out to end the inning? It makes sense to me, and I want to add it, but I can't tell if it fits into any of the examples listed. Cubs Fan 01:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

No that's Strikeout#Four_strikeouts_in_an_inning. Both involve an out that is not an out (and therefore there are four outs), they are otherwise unrelated concepts. They aren't even in the same class, in that Fourth out is part of the rules of the game; it can affect the outcome. Four strikeouts in an inning is only a "scoring" rule; in only affects the stats.  Randall Bart   Talk  21:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Randall Bart erred above by writing "an out that is not an out." He should have written "a strikeout that is not an out." When the catcher drops strike three and either first base is unoccupied or there were already two outs, the batter is NOT OUT even though the pitcher is credited with a strikeout. The umpire calls "Strike Three!" but does not call the batter out. Just because the word "strikeout" contains the word "out" does not mean a strikeout is an out. SEppley (talk) 12:38, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

How's This For a Scenario?[edit]

(Offered free to any writer who wants to use it in sports fiction.) Bases loaded, none out. A triple steal is on, but the batter misses the sign. The runners take off and the batter hits a line drive to the first baseman. The first baseman steps on first for a second out, then trots over to second base for the third out, and celebrates an unassisted triple play. However, if the runner from third had touched home plate prior to the out at second, our man had better get his butt over to third base to record a fourth out, else the run will be counted. It won't be a quadruple play, as the original third out is voided. (I assume that the first baseman can take a leisurely stroll to third base, because the runner cannot very well race back there without voiding the run himself!) WHPratt (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
To make things worse, suppose that the above situation happened with one out, and let's assume that the firstbaseman took his time in tagging first for the third out, and by then the runner from third had touched home. Say that the firstbaseman, having lost count of the outs, runs over to touch second base before that runner can return. He thinks that he has completed a triple play, but in fact, it's just a superfluous fourth out that doesn't help matters. But, if he goes on to touch third base, he generates an important fifth out that negates the run . WHPratt (talk) 16:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

A non-appeal out[edit]

Is not it only appeal outs to have replacement in third outs?--JSBB (talk) 06:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The "apparent" fourth out (and nullification of the previous third out) do not require an appeal play. In the official baseball rulebook, underneath rule 7.10(d) is a comment that refers to the recognition of an "apparent" fourth out in the case of an appeal play. But an apparent fourth out can also happen without an appeal play. Example: Runners on 2nd and 3rd, two out. Batter hits ground ball to shortstop, who tags R2 for the third out after R3 has scored. But batter failed to advance to first base, so shortstop throws to 1B for the apparent fourth out, nullifying the run and the previous third out. Officially, R2 and R3 are left on base and the batter is out. SEppley (talk) 14:25, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Oversight, over-looked, lost count, unrecognized 4th out[edit]

Perhaps it was a decade ago, but I seem to remember it because, it was reported by Aaron Brown - a news anchor and baseball fan - noteworthy news story because it was a major league game, played before a filled stadium, and broadcast widely. Apparently the officials, the scorekeepers, the fans and even the players just sort of lost count of the number of outs. They played four outs in a somewhat boring half inning as clearly counted in the video clips the next day. It was meaningless to the outcome of the game, but rather showed how it is possible for mass delusion to occur. (Although it could be my memory) Need more information about this most obscure event... rpauli—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 18:17, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Another Fourth Out[edit]

I noted an example of the Fourth Out in the article on Pete Daley: The runner who scored the stealth run (which didn't appear on the scoreboard until the umps ruled on it) was future manager Gene Mauch. Maybe he was the only one out there who knew the rule. WHPratt (talk) 13:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Proper scorekeeping?[edit]

I know that when a fourth out is made, the prior out is officially nullified and the runner whose out is nullified is officially left on base. What I want to learn is whether the nullification also reduces a quadruple play to a triple play, or reduces a triple play to a double play, or reduces a double play to a single play, in the official scorekeeping. The Wikipedia article on Triple play discusses a quadruple play but doesn't make clear whether it would be officially recorded as a quadruple play, or only as a triple play due to the nullification. Have there been any major league baseball games where a fourth out was made as part of a "continuous action?" (Continuous action is required in the definitions of double play and triple play, and would presumably be required in the official definition of quadruple play if that definition existed. For example, it would be continuous action if, after the third out is made, the ball is immediately thrown to third base to put out runner R3 who hadn't tagged up after the caught fly ball, in order to nullify the scored run.) If an "apparent" fourth out actually occurred in a continuous action in a major league game, we could see how the play was officially recorded. SEppley (talk) 13:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

If I were scoring such an inning, I'd erase all of the affected entries and rewrite them to reflect the ultimate situation, accounting for the correct three outs and no run scored on the last play. In the "comments" section, I'd note how the play originally developed, just for posterity. (If it were all too complicated to erase, then I'd record the changes elsewhere, maybe in the 10th inning column or on a separate sheet I'd attach, and draw a line through the replaced at-bats.) However, there'd only be three putouts in the team totals from that inning, no assist on a third out that ultimately didn't happen, and any washed-out run wouldn't tally as an R or an RBI. And no double- or triple play play that implied four outs (and no quadruple play ever). But I would do some creative writing in the "comments" section. WHPratt (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)