Talk:Geordie/Archive 3

Article Intro, Geordie offensive to some Wearsiders

Anonymous IP 82.39.195.204 who keeps reverting my edit, would you like to discuss why you are reverting what i write? Gazh 07:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Gazh, the origin of where Geordie comes from is not known

26th July 2007

Hello Gazh, Gazh, you said “Outside this region, the term Geordie is the popular choice in referring to anyone from the North East, although this may be offensive to some people from Sunderland and some County Durham regions as the origin of the term 'Geordie' is said to derive from Newcastle's support of George II during the Jacobite rebellion, which neighbouring areas opposed, this would prove that indeed the people of Sunderland and County Durham are not Geordies.”

Gazh, The origin of the term Geordie is not proven, we can claim it comes from an old north eastern prouncement of the name George, we can claim it comes from villages in County Durham and it spread to the Tweed, Tyne, Wear and Tees, we can claim it comes from the south side of the Tyne and spread again. But these are just claims.

The one thing we can say is that Geordie has been used to describe the north east of England for about 180years, by using documents, where people from north and south of the region have been called Geordies and call themselves Geordies. And there are many various sources of documents from TV footage, to newspapers, to books.

Gazh, you are also using this one event coming from the Jacobite rebellion. I think you should be more real, and understand how the people would have lived and been like sociologically.

The people who fought in this rebellion, would have been bribed with food and water and the chance to feed their family, over certain death, and if they could have escaped and went to the other side they would have fought for the other side by being bribed with water, food and the chance to feed their family over death. Their bias was to their clan, their bias was towards survival.

The breadline people who fought in this rebellion had no time or thought to loyalty to any nationality, they had no time or thought to loyalty to Newcastle or Sunderland. And lets say if the people of Sunderland in a collective perceived Newcastle, Durham, Berwick, Middlesbrough had the wealth -which is very doubtful there was a collective like that at this time in the north east of England- then if they did so they would have just moved from their basic dwellings to perceived better basic dwellings and migrated instead of fighting them.

Simply their loyalty was to their immediate clan they happened to belong to at that moment in time and those clans their clans connected with in a radius of no more than a couple of miles, and that is the only thing that makes sociological sense.

These people were illiterate for gods sake. These people had no media to give them symbols of who is bad, so they took in hearsay from neighbors to neighbors. These people would have behaved similarly to tribes in Africa that are illiterate and don’t have media programming their brains. And when the battle was over they would have been relieved that they could live in peace and be free to move.

Also when this rebellion was over, the rebellion was forgotten by humans over generations, who were getting on by trading and socialising and not being influenced to take sides by forces from the north and south of the region. It is only when it was read about 400year later in 2007 by literate drama students, that some keyboard warrior has made a drama out of it.

Cheers,

All the best.

List of famous geordies

For god sake South shields, Northumbria and county Durham are not geordie places! So I removed anyone from these places from the list, make exceptions for people from Newcastle upon Tyne, Gateshead, North shields, and Wallsend nowhere else though. Because adding non-geordies onto that damn list is very disrespectful. The sunder king 14:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed the list of famous geordies until it can be verifyed. The sunder king 14:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you will find that there are many documents over many, many years that state that you are a geordie if you come from anywhere in the north east.

Please stop your vandalism.

--77.97.69.42 18:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, geordie is a term refering to of newcastle. Mackem is sunderland, pitmatic is durham, smoggie is teeside. The sunder king 10:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There is document after document from old TV footage, to newspapers to books, saying you are a geordie if you come from the north east. Please stop your vandalism.

Thank you.

--77.97.69.42 22:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi I have removed the section which has found its way back into the article, simply because people who aren't geordies are keep being placed in as "geordies" such as Steve Cram and Eric Idle who are big supporters of sunderland. Blueanode (talk) 17:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This list wasn't like any other list gone before, those lists didn't have citations and that was the reason it was took down.

On this new list I think there were over 70 notable Geordies and everyone had was cited which is fair game, which is what wiki asks. By the way 'Eric Idle' wasn't on the list. But I'll research him.

I can understand you taking people in the list down if there was no citations. But what was up was adding to the article.--Gregs the baker (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well that is wrong, see Mackem, it is not by any way vandalism. The sunder king 11:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Sunder King here. The article clearly states that the geogreaphical area that "Geordies" come from is ambiguous, and can mean all sorts to different people. We can't therefore have this extensive list because to have such a list is making such a geographical definition. Clearly in some cases nobody has a problem - namely those born and raised in Newcastle itself. However, any further afield and then the list starts to make definitions about geographical area, contradicting what is written above it about the ambiguity of it. I think they should only be added if there are strong sources that show that a person is considered a geordie. Logoistic 21:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

As a Geordie myself, I have to back Sunder King. Please stop accusing him of vandalism.

Thank you.

Procrustean (talk) 02:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

6th October 2007, Reference Point For Those Concerned With Geordie Dialect and Vocabulary : Look at 'Dorfy’ articles

‘Dorfy’ articles, South Shields Gazette.

--Kirkpatrick9 18:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed section about Sunderland

The part was riddled with 'Citation Needed' tags, and Sunderland is quite irrelevant to 'Geordie'. Gazh 19:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

New List Of Notable Geordies, Accidently Taken Down When The Page Was Frozen

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&oldid=184287131

Blueanode,

1. This list wasn't like any other list gone before, those lists didn't have citations and that was the reason they were took down.

2. Citations, on this new list I think there were over 70 notable Geordies and everyone had was cited which is fair game, which is what wiki asks.

3. I can understand people removing people in the list, if there is no citations to back up a claim.

4. What was up was adding to the article. There was 132 citations

Lets keep the list referenced as a rule, like everyone on wiki wants.

--Gregs the baker (talk) 19:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Blueanode, on the list there is only two Sunderland fans I can see. Your statement on the history page on the 20:17, 14 January 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Geordie&action=history has no factual consistency. Also does two people mean removing a list of 70 people?--Gregs the baker (talk) 20:12, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope, because many of those people aren't even from newcastle, the list is annoying and WP:POV pushing, because it appears to be built around the term everyone from the northeast is a geordie, and it doesn't work. Gateshead, North Tyneside, and Newcastle are the only acceptable geordie places, DURHAM, is pitmatic, and northumbria has its own dialect too. Blueanode (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It has 132 citations, which is all you can ask.--Gregs the baker (talk) 20:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

those citations are usless and can't help, if you aren't from newcastle you aren't a geordie. Blueanode (talk) 20:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

steve cram

is a mackem [1]. 86.153.34.190 (talk) 20:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

phil collingwood, is a mackem [2]. 86.153.34.190 (talk) 20:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Heather mills is a mackem. [3]. 86.153.34.190 (talk) 20:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

They have citations on them that say Geordie, and you clearly haven't read the citations.

those above are citations to prove they aren't geordies!!! 86.153.34.190 (talk) 20:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

From NUFC

I've removed the following from the NUFC article as it belongs here, and is probably duplicated here.

---

It is not known for sure where exactly the term Geordie comes from. However it has also been claimed that in 1745, George II recruited many troops from around the Newcastle area. They were known as "George's men", which became "Geordies men" in the local dialect, hence Geordies. However it seems to originate from the North East coal mining industry with miners being called Geordies (As referenced in Camden Hotten, John (1869). The Slang Dictionary, Or Vulgar Words, Street Phrases And Fast Expressions of High and Low Society. John Camden Hotten. p. 142. "Geordie, general term in Northumberland and Durham for a pitman, or coal-miner. Origin not known; the term has been in use more than a century." {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help). Which compliments the fact that North Eastern miners used Geordie lamps, which were miner's lamps developed by George Stephenson in 1815; that George was the most popular eldest boys name in the North East of England.

---

MickMacNee (talk) 19:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Disputed editing

Let's put this right.

1) Gregs the baker makes the claims that a number of people from the region of North East England are geordies, with references, however what he fails to understand is that these "references" are not valid or accurate because they are from tabloid newspapers and there has been a mis-understanding by the creators who presume a geordie is from northeast england "which is wrong".

2) Many of these people claimed as "notable geordies" are from the wearside region, which is covered by a dialect and term named "mackem" and hence they have found their way into this article because of a mis-understanding. The mackem dialect is not always reconised, hence forth people mistake them for "geordies", hence sources like this and what has happened here.

3) since a mackem is a completely different thing and has been mistook on this article, the Ip wishes to remove these "mackems" or "wearsiders" because it is causing confusion. Yet Gregs the baker refuses to listen.

thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zogonthetyne (talk • contribs) 18:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• Your definitions of a geordie and a mackem are WP:POV. The sources stand, unless you provide an official definition of a geordie (there isn't one, that is the whole point, these are not just 'mistakes, it is normal evolution of language), or a source from the person themselves disclaiming their geordieness. Other than that, I don't understand why you needed 3 bullet points to say the same thing. MickMacNee (talk) 19:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

-Heh, heh, heh, there is no official documentation as to what a Geordie is, and PS read Jack Commons quote. Also read all the references in the document.

Heh, heh, heh. --Gregs the baker (talk) 19:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That is a pathetic response, since there is no definition of a geordie, you can't accuse people of being them. You've just proved the references are invalid. Zogonthetyne (talk) 19:05, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• ? It's not an accusation, it's reporting a source. As I say, feel free to add sources disclaiming it, otherwise you are just POV pushing. MickMacNee (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

My edits are not POV, I am stating basic facts. I think we should come to the concensus that geordie is a misunderstood term, hence why the sources are invalid. Due to this point and due to being no actually definition we can't really point out who is a geordie and who isn't, etc we might not know these people, and hence they might just not speak the dialect, they might speak standard english, it can't be decided unless we met them, not with rubbish news sources which just take anyone from North East England as a geordie, I say to get rid of the section to prevent confusion, the same on Mackem. Zogonthetyne (talk) 19:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Questions and comments from a confused bystander

• This section starts with Zogonthetyne putting up three numbered paragraphs. In the first I read these "references" are not valid or accurate because they are from tabloid newspapers. I have a number of problems with that.
  • Why are they "references"? (As distinct from references.) Independent of its quality, reliability, source, or anything else for that matter, a reference is a reference.
  • I do not understand how a reference can not be valid. It might be irrelevant. It might reference false information. But a reference is a reference. I suppose it could be "not valid" if it referenced something that did not exist, but that is not the case here. So how can a reference be "not valid"?

Newspapers aren't sources, they're publishers - a source is an origin. Newspapers regurgitate, especially tabloids, so if you cite a newspaper as your source it should only be a newspaper that has itself stated its source, otherwise you're simply saying "It was published, that's good enough for me". You have to take into account the context, which is that the northeast of England is largely unknown and misunderstood in London. You should also be aware - and beware - that a lot of biographical data printed in newspapers is not verified by them, nor is it often obtained from the horse's mouth either. Heather Mills is a case in point: it was disputed whether she was born in the northeast, or in Aldershot. Newspapers were happy to print one or the other without bothering to check or verify. It can't be both. So, let's be clear: just because a newspaper thinks that 'Geordie' applies to everyone from the northeast does not make it so; it's possible to be misinformed, and to be misinformed is not to participate in 'evolution of the language', it is to be mistaken. So, check your facts before you cite and gloat over your dubious citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.77.130 (talk) 04:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

• • "not accurate". OK, a reference can be not accurate. But I read not ... accurate because they are from tabloid newspapers, and that doesn't follow at all! Yes, there is a lot of rubbish in tabloids, but not everything in tabloids is "not accurate"; such a statement is an inaccurate and unreliable generalisation.
  • Then we have the statement there has been a mis-understanding by the creators who presume a geordie is from northeast england "which is wrong". If a geordie doesn't come from northeast england, which quadrant of england do they come from? I assume Zogonthetyne means something like: there has been a mis-understanding by the creators who presume a geordie is anyone who comes from any part of northeast england "which is wrong"? In any case, the statement is not backed up with any supporting argument or supporting evidence, so as it is, its simply a statement of POV.
• In the second numbered paragraph, again we have a statement of POV.
• Similarly the third numbered paragraph.
• These are followed by a bullet from MickMacNee saying (in my POV) "Your statements are POV. You need to provide supporting evidence".
• This is followed by a non-helpful statement from Gregs the baker.
• Zogonthetyne responds That is a pathetic response. Although I'm inclined to agree, obviously both the response and my inclination are POV, and neither are helpful. Then follows the statement You've just proved the references are invalid. Well, I've already stated my opinion on whether references can be invalid, and, as-far-as-I-can-tell, nobody has proven anything yet.
• This is followed by a bullet from MickMacNee repeating his earlier bullet. i.e. "Your statements are POV. You need to provide supporting evidence".
• Zogonthetyne responds "My edits are not POV, I am stating basic facts."

Well Zogonthetyne, I don't know about your edits and hence can't comment on your edits, (all I've noticed is that you are reverting other people's edits), but your statements sound very much like POV to me.
Could I impose upon you to clarify for me which are the basic facts that you are stating, and why they are facts and not opinion? I'm afraid I'm a bit confused by your line of reasoning, and would appreciate you clarifying it for me. Thank you in anticipation, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, sorry to say this after that large summary, but ZogontheTyne is banned indefinitely [4] so you might have a wait on your hands. MickMacNee (talk) 15:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This whole mackem/geordie thing is quite annoying, as always I blaim football. A lot of people try to make it so geordie is a Newcastle fan which of course those of us of sound mind (joke, joke!....or is it...:p) aren't. To me though the whole of the north east is geordie. I suppose what we'd really need is a seperate term for Newcastle folk or a entirely new term for north east people in general. Such OR wouldn't be for here though of course.--Him and a dog 12:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Who or what is Dobson Tyne?

I removed this sentence from the geordies of note section:

“Plus Geordieland means Northumberland and Durham” Dobson Tyne 1973

Has anyone got any idea what it refers to? MickMacNee (talk) 14:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to put a response in here MickMacNee, I've found a reference, and put it in Derivation of the term, though being lazy I havent put much context with it and linked it with say example the Hotton bit etc. Is that were you were planning on putting it if you had a reference for it?

I probably should have put it here to see what you had planned with it.

Anyway there is a reference there if you need it...--Gregs the baker (talk) 17:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Split the page?

I would suggest that this page should be split into 2 if not more pages, at the very least:

1: A page for the Geordie dialect. Clearly as the most distinctive dialect in England it is deserving of its own page.
2: A page about the actual 'Geordie people'. Of course this wouldn't involve going down the silly route of Cornish people. It'd just be more this current page without the language stuff- the origin of the term and that sort of thing.
Support/oppose? Why?--Him and a dog 12:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

A good idea. The fact is that some articles in other wikipedias are about the dialect only and some are just about local people. Don't you mind splitting the article? Arxatiri (talk) 09:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)