Talk:Greek Operation

• This page was mistakenly moved to Deportations of Greeks in the USSR, which took place in 1942, 1944 and 1949. But Greek Operation of NKVD took short period in 1937-1938. --Erud (talk) 11:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
• They should not be confused. See uk:Грецька операція НКВС and uk:Депортація понтійських греків. --Erud (talk) 11:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Why "so-called"?

"So-called" is often abused. The lead sentence says "the so-called Greek Operation." The adjective "so-called" implies that it wasn't really a Greek Operation, but called that for less than honest purposes. That's not the case: the name Greek Operation is uncontested and used by everyone, and there's no deceitful intent in it. Naturally the operation was so called, but that doesn't make it a "so-called" operation. I'm deleting "so-called". —Wegesrand (talk) 13:47, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

More information

More information is available in "The Nation Killers" by Robert Conquest, in 1970. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.66.76 (talk) 13:14, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Bad Sources

Too much of the article is based on a single Greek newspaper article source: http://www.kathimerini.gr/307219/article/epikairothta/ellada/to-pogkrom-kata-twn-ellhnwn-ths-essd Since the newspaper in question is in fact a center-right paper, I call in question its usefulness. Yes, the article was written by a historian, but the politics and history of the USSR are often used to attack or support left wing parties, movements and groups in Greek politics, the topic is never a calm one in Greece. I suggest we actually find proper works by historians, such as books and academic articles, not necessarily Greek as there is quite a large amount of research on the USSR, especially ince the archives opened in 1991. Statements such as "Stalin considered that everyone who was born of a "capitalist" ethnicity was an enemy of his regime, no matter their personal political beliefs" are quite questionable, and should not be based on such poor sources. This Wiki entry remains quite low quality at this point. --Tco03displays (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

The best way to deal with it is to remove opinions and keep only facts referenced in the source. The statement about Stalin is either completely wrong or misinterpreted (I will not go into detail). - üser:Altenmann >t 03:10, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

P.S. I did add references to good Russian sources earlier, but I have no patience to write detailed articles now. - üser:Altenmann >t 03:18, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

This all matter is a just aresearch work from only one minor historian (no academic) of Greece who writes in newspapers and speaks to right-wings radio stations. The same person has said(!) that No one Greek has ever participate in Vlasov army or ever fight(!) against the Ussr while in Greece the security battalions allies to Nazi were equal to numbers to ressistance forces.

Also the first lieutenant of Vlasov was a Greekpontiac: Constantine Kromiadi.

unfortunately we cannot fight this operation. The Press media for polital reasons give access to whoever says whatever he wants. So in wikipedia rules we can also add the phrase of the same historian No one Greek fight against Ussr(!!!!!!) and also speak about Greek operation.--Istoria1944 (talk) 12:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC) --Istoria1944 (talk) 12:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Brave new world!

Now we have another claim. That Greek operation was made in 1937, because...Greek Communists lost the Civil War in 1949!!! Stalin was the one who saved Greek Communists refugees and relocate them in Tashkent in 1950. Greeks in Ussr during nazist era were among them nazi collaborator like 2nd in command in Vlasov Army like Constantine Kromiadi but lets leave the claims of Agztidis a totally unknown historian in science who says among the others that 1)Noone Greek was fighting against USSR during NAZI era. Ok we the Greeks have in our blood one special element and thats why we can be killed by stalinsts about 1/3(!!!!!!!!!!!!!) as the claims of Agtzidis but the same time noone will choose to fight against this regime! 2) That the kings and head of Greek army (like the Grandgrand father of prince of U.K during Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) were traitors(!!) who collaborate with Kemal ! Ok nobody cares about Balkans and their history but lets use a little of LOGIC. OK Stalin was a great criminal and he killed a lot of men and women. He made Catyn, gulags, etc but if anyone who says anything that is against logic has a page in Wikipedia, we will have a great promblem --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:28, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

No. You should read the article once again, carefully. The Greek operation started in 1937, yes. But the deportation of 1949 was explained by the possibility that it was a "punishment" because of the failed Greek civil war that ended in 1949 (though it already started in 1946). It does not say that this was the only reason. As for what triggered the 1937 operation, four years before WWII in the USSR, remains a matter of debate. Though Greeks were not the only ethnic group that was mistreated, not by far.

"Stalin was the one who saved Greek Communists refugees and relocate them in Tashkent in 1950." Saved from what? What was the need to transport them over a thousand miles away? Why not leave them near the Black Sea coast? Who claims that anybody was saved by this?

"Greeks in Ussr during nazist era were among them nazi collaborator like 2nd in command in Vlasov Army like Constantine Kromiadi." There was also such a thing as the Russian Liberation Army. Should Stalin have deported every Russian as well? The logic here is flawed. Individual responsibility should not be submerged into collective punishment.

I do not understand the rest of your comments. What exactly are you trying to say? What exactly are you rebelling against in this article? Please, try to be articulate. If a sentence is sourced, then adding "citation needed" is contradictory. You are welcome to help improve the article and find (preferably English) reliable sources. Agztidis wrote a scientific journal publication which doesn't seem problematic and should thus stay in the article. If you have any other comments, try to explain them.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 07:52, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

First of all 3E1I5S8B9RF7, thank you for your comments, and i apologize for my bad english. You have confused some things. The Civil war of Greece ends with the defeat of Greek guerillas as Wikipedia correct says "After this defeat, the DSE fighters crossed the border into Albania and scattered to camps all over the newly founded so-called Socialist Republics, with the main body of the fighters camped in Taskent, the capital of Uzbekistan in the USSR." Stalin saved them cause, Greece with the help of USA was threatening Albania with war. Albania had then two options. To make war with Greece, or to give back the refugees. So Stalin rescued them.

"Individual responsibility should not be submerged into collective punishment." Dear friend in every country during WW2 minorities had serious promblem. In USA, they sent all the people of Japanese origin to American "Gulags". The same were in every country for Germans for example U.K. Collective punishment in that era was the common logic as it was for the U.K to starve to death India people for the purposes of win the war. Today it is -correctly- a crime, but for that time it was the thing that every country did. OF course in USSR -the most violent country of the era- minorieties had a more violent and criminal treatment.

According of the extreme exaggerations of Agztidis, Greeks were about 220.000 but the same time they had 1/4 of them dead and the same time but not one of them was collaborate or was antisoviet agent(of course this was easily mythbusted cause Cromiadi was a Greek person, and if the 2nd in command is Greek maybe we can conclude that his troops were also Greeks as others -minor- Greeks historians says). This is a ridiculus opinions from a minor historian with only self publications.

in his article in 1991 in a Journal his suggests that "According to recent declarations by Soviet officials, 50,000 Greeks died under the Stalinist persecutions . Their reaction to the suppression of human rights for their community was to try to go to Greece (Agtzidis 1988)". So this is the so called source for the victims of Greek operation(which one?) is 50.000 cause someone (who?) from the Soviet officials claims that. OK if you want i can contribute to wikipedia, with what historians of Greece said before 40 years about the ressistance against Hitler in Greece. In Athens in 1941-2 we had about ~30.000 death from starvation, but Greek officials -and now- says that were about 300.000 people. Should i write it as Agtzidis did?

Please my friend think, that Tatars of Crimea, who collabarote with nazis with a percentage of ~90%, their death toll were about 25%. The same time Agzidis suggests that noone Greek was a NAZI collabarator (it is a lie, Cromiadi was, also a great leader of them) had the same percentage of deaths. It is totally ridicilus.

What i suggest?

Ι suggest the Greek operpation of NKVD to be only for the years of the Greek operation of 1937-39 as Greek and Russian Wikipedia do with a death toll as archive of KGB says, about ~3.000 people/219.000 people. Cause it was a crime like Katyn massacre, for Stalinists to prepare the War2. The presecution of Greeks during the WW2 or after the war, is a totally different thing.

We dont need in 2018 lies about the Greeks who were totally innoncent and every family had one killing(!), but noone had fought against USSR. That are lies for children and for propaganda reasons. Also we need for this matter, sources from serious historians, not from selfpubliced historians with one or two publication shortly after the collapse of USSR. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

So what are you saying, that we should split the article into two? One that covers the 1937-1939 period, and the second one that covers the 1944 and 1949 deportations?

You also need to present some reliable sources (books, journal articles, reports) about your claims. For instance, where do you get the 3,000 death toll from? I don't mind someone rewriting the article, just do it the way it conforms with the Wikipedia standards. Since you speak Greek, maybe you can translate some useful information from the Greek version of this article. --3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 18:47, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes that is extactly what i suggest. To analyze the situation before axis invasion. And after to analyze what happened after the axis situation. And after to analyze what happened after Soviet win against Nazis. I dont mind to split the article we can have only two or three paragraphs with these different distincts history phases. If we still have one article, then it will be weird as the claim that the Greek Operation of 1937-39 happened because ...Greek communist lost the battle ten years after. The ~3.000 death toll is from archives of KGB against Greek shootings during 1937-39. Unfortunelly there is very little in Greek literature about Stalinist era for various reasons. I will contribute in this article, but if Agtzidis and Dzhuka is considered as reliable source when they say that during axis occupation Greek were Saints and Martyrs, i cannot be part of this so i will write just one paragraph with the other opinion. Thank you a lot for your time. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:00, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

As i check it again, Greek and Russian Wikipedia is totally based on claims of [[Ivan Dzhukha]. I cant fight it. I am alone to fight it. I give up. I cannot fight this Greek Operation of Bad Stalin and Good Greeks. This is a black and white pattern that we form Balkans are addict to. I give up. If anyone has the guts to stand against these ridiuculus lies then i will contribute. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:26, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

No reliable sources

http://www.kathimerini.gr/307219/article/epikairothta/ellada/to-pogkrom-kata-twn-ellhnwn-ths-essd

Kathimerini is a just right-wing newspaper. Vlasis Agzidis is a minor historian without publications at all. In his phd thesis about Greek newspaper in Ussr area https://www.didaktorika.gr/eadd/handle/10442/9040 He nowhere says such things. Perhaps he found more during his research, but with what method?In which reliable publications he made his new research?

In the article he says whatever he want based in only memoirs from two or three persons that were in prison. This is a false method. If we take the memoirs from a Greek ressistance fighter then we will conclude that he beat Hitler himself. It is a ridiculus method that can conclude anything.

He is also the historian that against any logic he says all the time baded again in memoirs that noone Greek person, fight against Ussr during 2nd war. Η συμμετοχή των Ελλήνων στην αντίσταση κατά των Ναζί είναι ακόμα ζωντανή στη μνήμη τους. Θυμούνται μέχρι σήμερα ότι στους Έλληνες της Κριμαίας δεν βρέθηκαν συνεργάτες των Γερμανών κατακτητών. Αντίθετα, κάθε δεύτερη ελληνική οικογένεια είχε έναν αντάρτη.[110] Ο συγγραφέας Pristavkin αναφέρει ότι μεταξύ των Ελλήνων δεν υπήρξαν προδότες αλλά μόνο ήρωες.[111]

So he suggests that Stalin was making a pogrom against the Greeks in 1937, but also no Greek was found to fight against Soviet authority. In the same time the -Turkish speakers- Greeks from Trabzon who fight against Kemal (and who Lenin support only for a while in 1920) and were fugitives in Greece, were 100% allies of NAZI (!!!).

All this operation is by a minor historian and his article to a newspaper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:16, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

References

The blood of the Greeks is antifascist?

According to Ivan Dzhukha a politician of Putin, engineer also a good friend of Agtzidis (he is a computer scientist and mathematician!) and -of cource what else?- historian. Stalin after WWII http://www.kathimerini.gr/255694/article/epikairothta/ellada/38000-ellhnes-sta-gkoylagk-ths-sivhrias "Με το ξέσπασμα του πολέμου και την επέλαση των Γερμανών στο σοβιετικό έδαφος ακολούθησαν νέοι διωγμοί εναντίον των μικρών εθνοτήτων. Το σταλινικό καθεστώς εξόρισε το 1942 στη Σιβηρία και το Καζακστάν 6.000 Ελληνες ως ύποπτους συνεργασίας με το εχθρό και όταν εκδιώχθηκαν τα γερμανικά στρατεύματα, το 1944, άλλα 15.040 άτομα ελληνικής καταγωγής εκτοπίστηκαν στη σιβηρική στέπα με την κατηγορία της συνεργασίας με τις κατοχικές δυνάμεις. «Βεβαίως όλα αυτά ήταν χαλκευμένα, οι Ελληνες όχι μόνο δεν συνεργάστηκαν με τους Γερμανούς, αλλά υπάρχουν στοιχεία που αποδεικνύουν την παρτιζάνικη δράση τους και συμμετοχή στον Κόκκινο Στρατό», λέει ο κ. Τζούχα."

Where it suggests, that Soviet authorities presecuted Greeks during and after WW2, but noone was a Nazi collaborator. (Cromiadis was a ghost, he had Censorship like Stalinist era photographs. If we dont like that th 2nd in Vlasov army was a GREEK person, we just dont care, we dont mention about him in our "publications", and nobody cares. We can say whatever we want against Stalin whatever ridiculus thing it is. Nobody will care about it). So Dzhukha suggests that Greeks from 1937-38 has been executed from Stalinist regime, but during the ww2 noone fought against the regime, as did all the minorieties in Baltic countries, Tatars etc.

I suppose that the blood of Greeks, is an antifascist one, and ok probably we had one dead per one family, but we prefer to die than to have relations with nazis. Afterall, we invented the democracy etc! (In the same hour in Greece, the Greeks refugees from USSR and Turkey were divided in two big parts. The first one was communist (from USSR), and the second one (from Turkey) was totally an axis power because Greeks from Turkey remembered that Lenin helped Turkey against them. But in USSR according to Dzhukha not even a simple guy fought against USSR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Ok. There are ridiculus jokes, but this is what wikipedia claims right now from guys like Dzhukha. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:57, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Greek Operation of the NKVD, years?

I think that when we talk about the Greek Operation of the NKVD, we talk about the anti-greek part of the NKVD Order No. 00485, which was in act during the years 1937-1938. Other anti-greek events the stalinist regime, were not belonging at this operation. The reason of this anti-greek operation during the years '37-'38, should not be confused with chronically posterior persecutions about pro-Axis' collaborationism (of some Greeks) and other situations. Inspirduser (talk) 22:31, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: HIS 347

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 27 April 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hfg2023 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Optfrost, Babieca51.

— Assignment last updated by Soviethistorian (talk) 02:43, 21 March 2023 (UTC)