Talk:Heritage languages in Toronto

This article was nominated for deletion on 24 August 2016. The result of the discussion was redirect to Demographics of Toronto#Languages.

I think the trick to fix the error message may be to remove the attribute "name=1" and "name=0" from the "<ref>" tags. Maybe a more experienced editor will let us know.

@Naomi TBB199: If you are still watching this; the name attributes are used when a certain citation is referred to multiple times. It keeps the reference list clean, without them citation duplicates. However, for this to work, the citation between the ref tags should be exactly the same for each attribute with the same name. Apparently, the article contains several ref tags with the same name, but different citations, hence the errors. Your proposed solution is indeed an easy way around this problem. - HyperGaruda (talk) 20:38, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!Naomi TBB199 (talk) 19:20, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish institutional support

Your nice list of institution's that support the Spanish language in Toronto should be formatted as a subset of the "Institutional Support" section. You might also make links to it from some of your other sections, if relevant. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 16:40, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide links and/or contact information for these institutions when you mention them in the section called "Institutional Support": " Centre for Spanish Speaking Peoples, the Hispanic Development Council, the Bloor Information and Life Skills Centre, and the North York Community House, TCDSB... You mention many institutions more in this section that also need links and/or contact info.

Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish, Japanese, Korean and Russian section ordering

These 4 languages don't have sections organized in the same order as all the others. Better consistency would make the page easier to navigate.Naomi TBB199 (talk) 16:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian history

This section seems to be more "where do/did they live?" Can you provide some History about when and from where Ukrainians came to settle in Toronto?Naomi TBB199 (talk) 16:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian status - missing link

Please add a link to " Heritage Language Variation and Change Project in Toronto" (as well as the citation you have at the end of the paragraph). What do you mean by "their other foreign counterparts"? Ukrainians in what other countries? Please add a link to the "Russian" section of our wiki page when you mention that language.

Next work on this heritage language overall! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naomi TBB199 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Canotonese "main article" note?

Why does it say there's a different "main article"? If you still have some info that's relevant to this page, please move it onto the main page and remove that note.

Naomi TBB199 (talk) 17:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cantonese history

Please confirm that you mean "There are around 65 million people around the world that speaks this heritage language." People who speak Cantonese in Hong Kong and Guongdong are not "heritage" speakers.

I'm also curious if it's true that " The later Cantonese Chinese immigrants chose to live in other northern areas in Toronto as well as Markham and Richmond Hill." I had understood that Markham and Richmond Hill were settled by (earlier) immigrants who had already been in Toronto for a while.

Most of the information that you have listed in "History" is actually demographics. Please revise. Can you provide other interesting history about the settlement of Toronto by Cantonese-speakers? What about before the transfer of sovereignty? What about in the almost 20 years since then? Naomi TBB199 (talk) 17:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cantonese demographics

You have the same information in the paragraph and in the table. Both are nice, but you only need one. Can you provide some interpretation of the data -- something about the proportion of people who have CAN as mother tongue vs. those that use CAN at home? What about CAN at work? What about # of people who study Cantonese? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naomi TBB199 (talk • contribs) 17:36, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cantonese institutional support

You make a powerful statement about the role of the Canadian gov't in supporting Cantonese language/culture, but you don't explain it, back it up, or provide any details. Please explain. (Be careful about the distinction between Canadian, provincial and city government services/support.)

Provide an in-line link to "The University of Toronto School of Continuing Studies" when you mention it. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 17:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cantonese status

Please clarify this sentence: "The research population of this study was the undergraduate students in the years of 1981-1982 and 1982-1983 where 64% of those students were from Hong Kong, where the primary language is Cantonese" It sounds like 64% of ALL the undergrad students at UofT in the early 1980's came from Hong Kong.

I don't understand this sentence: "Furthermore, four out of five people in the population were in the labour force despite how long they have been in Canada." What is the relationship between how long they have been in Canada and their position in the labour force?

What is "language inefficiency"? Is that what you mean?

Can you provide something in the caption for the photo of MacLennan labs to explain why it is in this section? or refer to it in the text?

Please revise the last sentence in this section so it is grammatical and makes sense.

As a whole, nicely written. I would like to see more about institutional support/resources available to Cantonese speakers and learners in Toronto. Besides schools, what is there? media? entertainment? museums? libraries (at UofT!!) ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naomi TBB199 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mandarin "main article" note ?

Why does it say there's a different "main article"? If you still have some info that's relevant to this page, please move it onto the main page and remove that note at the top of your section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naomi TBB199 (talk • contribs) 17:52, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mandarin Demographics, but no History

Please provide a source for this fact " 5% of them spoke Mandarin as their mother tongue." I don't see that information in the "language_2011_backgrounder.pdf" from the census that you cite in the first paragraph. If the number is wrong, please fix.

Also, revise your first 2 sentences so that the focus is directly on Mandarin, rather than Heritage Language in Toronto as a whole.Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What does this sentence mean? " Mainland China is one of the most common countries of children of immigrants in Toronto." ?

It would be great if you could add a section on History? When did Mandarin speakers come to Toronto? Why? from where? Check this section in the other languages for ideas. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:03, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide live links (or contact information) for the schools, institutions, and clubs that you mention? That would make this more useful to interested people.

What does "UTFUN" stand for?

Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to see more about institutional support/resources available to Mandarin speakers and learners in Toronto. Besides schools, what is there? media? entertainment? museums? ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naomi TBB199 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 20 March 2016 (UTC) Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mandarin status

These are great examples:

"The use of Mandarin in Toronto is easily spotted. There is often a Mandarin translation under advertisements of various products and services, such as cosmetics, auto industries, insurance companies, etc. A lot of companies also offer a Mandarin version of their official webpage, a new shift from the English/French language option."

Please provide links or images to illustrate each claim.

In your picture caption, explain what "CUA" is. Be sure that either the caption or your section explains how/why the picture is relevant to your topic. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:11, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish history

Can you find any information about the history of Spanish-speakers coming to Toronto specifically? From where? when? why? If you can't find it through the usual channels, please email my colleague, Prof. Michol Hoffman (mhoffman@yorku.ca) and see if she can give you some pointers. She is a linguist who has worked on Spanish as a heritage language in Toronto.

I moved some of your information from this section to the top of the whole article, because it is about heritage languages more generally than Spanish. Thanks for preparing it.

Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish status

I think something is missing in this sentence: " It is estimated that Spanish-speaking/Hispanic people migrated to Toronto during the 1960-70's." Do you mean "most people" or "first migrated"? or something else?

I've moved several sentences from this section to others where they are more relevant. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:30, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Italian "main article" note?

Why does it say there's a different "main article"? If you still have some info that's relevant to this page, please move it onto the main page and remove that note. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:39, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Italian history

Please clarify this sentence: "In particular, the Italians, who had been restricted on national and ethnic grounds" Is it related to specifically to WWII? Who restricted? How is it connected to migration to TORONTO?

What else can you say about the history of Italians in Toronto? They have been here for over 100 years, so WWII is not the whole story. What parts of Italy did they come from? When? Why? Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:45, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Italian Demographics and Status

Please make a link to the "Spanish" and "Tagalog" sections of our page when you mention them.

Can you provide live links to, or contact information for these institutions that you mention: Creating Italians in Canada" Gabaccia, the Columbus Centre in Toronto, the Canadian Center for Italian Culture and Education? What about other sorts of institutional support like media, entertainment, museums? Also "Siegel," who you mention later.

I don't quite understand this sentence: " Certain dialects in every culture including Italian, do not hold power but according to Vizmueller-Zocco, the dialect used in Toronto which is named Italo-Canadian gives it more dignity." Maybe it should be several separate sentences? Also check spelling of author's name.

or this one: " Whatever dialect a person is using from the new dialect does not hold inferiority but instead assists in creating a new, unique identity."

Please revise and expand this section to better connect the many interesting ideas mentioned. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 18:56, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Korean History and Demographics

I think your picture and caption of City Hall would fit better at the very top of our page, as it mentions nothing specific about Korean. Please move it.

Your first paragraph is not about Korean in Toronto. It would be better to just provide a link to a page about Korean history as you begin to discuss the relevant topic for this page.

Similarly, your second paragraph is not about Korean in Toronto and repeats information that is better provided in the intro to the whole page. See whether you provide any key information here that should be added at the top of the page, and then remove these 2 paragraphs so that our page remains focused on our topic. Then your section will begin with a good, strong, well-focused intro to your topic.

Does your sentence about the % of Koreans who are Christians refer to Korea? Toronto? world-wide? Please focus on relevant info to our topic. If you keep your reference to the "Korean Ministry of Culture and Tourism," please provide an in-line link to it. Same for "Federation of Korean-Canadian Associations."

This is not true: "There are no accurate statistics pertaining to the population of Korean immigrants in Toronto". Please provide relevant information from: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/dp-pd/dt-td/Rp-eng.cfm?TABID=2&LANG=E&APATH=3&DETAIL=0&DIM=0&FL=A&FREE=0&GC=0&GK=0&GRP=0&PID=105396&PRID=0&PTYPE=105277&S=0&SHOWALL=0&SUB=0&Temporal=2013&THEME=95&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF= Naomi TBB199 (talk) 19:09, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Korean Institutional Support

Please provide in-line links and/or contact information for institutions when you mention them in the section called. That will be more useful to readers seeking this kind of information. Also for "Korean Speech Competition" and the "Korean Writing Competition", UofT library, etc.

Are you sure that it is "the Korean Y.M.C.A." that is "an organization that is aimed at educating Korean youth, adults, and elders through various Korean Heritage Schools located in the major cities of Canada."?? The references that you provide for this paragraph and many previous ones are incorrect -- they refer to Ukrainian information. Please provide accurate references for your facts. You will need to work out how to refer to the Korean-relevant portion of those sites and use a different link than the Ukrainian one. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 19:18, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Korean Status

Please clarify what the study by Young Gon Kim found. Is it in the paragraph before you mention the study? or the paragraph after? Provide appropriate references for the other facts you mention here. I've tried to help reorganize your sentences to be grouped by topic a little better, but I'm not ffamiliar with the study you cite and I don't know where the other info came from, so please check carefully and fix so that you provide well-organized, well-referenced facts. In particular, it's not clear where you get info about the two students you describe. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 19:26, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese history

Please clarify this run-on sentence: " The wave of immigration from Japan grew with the fishing industry as they were heavily practiced in their homeland, by 1901, a number of 4,738 Japanese[1] settlers have arrived in Canada and seeking for occupations. "

What does "heavily practices" mean here?

Please consolidate your information about the number of Japanese speakers in Toronto.

You provided very helpful definitions of the 3 parts of ELV. I moved them to the top of the whole page, as they are not specific to Japanese but are useful for understanding the page as a whole. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 19:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese institutional support

Please provide links and/or contact information for all institutions when you mention them. This will be useful to readers.

You have info about the number of speakers scattered in different sections. Figure out where it goes best and avoid repetition.

Is this what you mean? "The institutional language support for third-generation Japanese speakers decreases dramatically compare to the second generation." That is, do you mean there is less institutional support for 3rd generation? or that there are fewer 3rd generatiaon Japanese who speak Japanese? I think it's the 2nd, but it sounds like you said the first.

I don't understand what Aoi said third-generation identify depends on. Please clarify.

Provide links to:

University of Toronto, St. George Campus, East Asian language and culture courses, faculty of Arts & Science, department of East Asian Studies, etc. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 20:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Filipino vs. Tagalog

Please clarify the topic of your page. As I understand it, Filipino refers to a culture. The goal of this page is to report on a heritage language. Earlier, your plan was to report on Tagalog. Can you tease apart information related to Tagalog-speakers and resources vs. the Filipino culture more broadly? If not, explain the problem to justify providing stats about "Filipinos". (You say something farther down about this.)

Your section called "History" is, in fact, only demographics. Can you provide a little history? When did Tagalog-speakers come to Toronto? From where? why? Where did they settle, etc. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 20:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tagalog institutional support & Status

Be sure that you are providing COMPLETE citations for the works you cite and that you are paraphrasing and reorganizing, not just copying.

You have lots of "demographic" and "Background" info buried in your "Libary" paragraph. Reorganize that. You also have demographic information in the section called "Status." You need to interpret it to show how it reflects status and/or move it to the Demographics section.

The information you provide in a section called " Greater Toronto Area" is also Demographics and should be in that section -- since the whole page is just about the Greater Toronto Area.

Revisit your last section, " Relations with Canada." What parts of it are relevant to the issue of Ethnolinguistic Vitality of Tagalog? Put those bits in appropriate sections and remove the rest. It's interesting, but it's not what this page is about.Naomi TBB199 (talk) 20:29, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Heritage Russian

This section would benefit from a brief Background or History paragraph saying when and where Russian speakers came from to Toronto, and, if possible, why. What kinds of Russian? You have some of this information listed under Status.

You MUST provide citations for the facts your report, such as from Statistics Canada.

Provide links to the institutions you mention.

This is (finally) a good start, but it needs to be filled out, better organized, and supported by citations. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 20:36, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References - everyone should check in here

Many references (nearly all) need to be completed/fixed.

If you are just linking to another institution/organization's website, put an in-line link to it rather than a bibliographic citation. Bibliographic citations are for published works. So, for example, when you write a sentence that says, "Toronto has a Ukrainian festival," and you link to the website about the festival, just put that in like this: "Toronto has a Ukrainian festival"

MANY BIBLIOGRAPHIC CITATIONS ARE INCOMPLETE. Please refer back to both the information in Blackboard about citing articles (Readings from Week 2) and the instructions for inserting citations in Wikipedia articles (Handouts in Week 2: Citing Sources and Avoiding Plagiarism). Just starting from the top (which means it looks like I'm picking on Ukrainian - sorry), here are some incomplete citations that need to be fixed:

Chumak-Horbatsch citation is incomplete (journal volume, issue, pages), as well as repeated. Stvolodymyr.ca reference is incomplete Reitz & Ashton citation is incomplete (pages) Conanaru & Noels citation is incomplete (pages)

The Pak et al. citation is one example that looks good and complete.

Someone gave the number of heritage languages in Toronto from the 2006 census. Could it be replaced with a complete citation and updated information from the 2011 census? Naomi TBB199 (talk) 12:07, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish in Toronto

You discuss interesting findings from a study by Potowski. It's misleading to have that in a section called "Heritage Spanish in Toronto," since it's a study about Chicago. Please decide if it should be included, and, if so, clarify. Naomi TBB199 (talk) 12:07, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]