Talk:Holden HD

This could use at least one picture of the back of the car. Several of these mid 60's holden are most easily distinguished at the back.Eregli bob (talk) 05:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ZA cars

I have a period owners' survey from South African CAR magazine, in which it is clearly stated that the 194 onlybecame available for 1967, partway into the HR's existence. Any comments? Mr.choppers | ✎ 01:46, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is unlikely that anybody else here has a copy of that magazine. Could you scan the relevant pages so that others can check them. Thanks. Stepho talk 10:33, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

there is no supporting data for this claim, there was no HD 194. <ref> https://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/holden_6_cylinder_engine_identification<\ref> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:4A14:2800:648F:1BDD:AFA4:1F18 (talk) 11:40, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your unique cars and parts link is for Australian production - which always had Holden red motors. The original question was about South African production with a Chevy 194 6-cylinder engine. I found this reference: https://www.automobile-catalog.com/performance/1967/1037255/holden_special_sedan_194.html Stepho talk 22:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Stepho. I also see the South African 194 HR listed for 1966, but it may be a glitch or it could be that the HR was introduced four-five months later than the Aussie HR and it is called the 1967 model year. Here, though, on page 9 there is a 1966 194cid HR listed. Sorry btw, I somehow missed your response from 7 years ago and will see if I can once again unearth this copy.

In any case, automobile-catalog does not list any South African variants of the HD at all, but that does not prove that it didn't exist. Best, Mr.choppers | ✎ 01:23, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This 2017 post also states that the 194 was introduced in 1967, replacing the Holden engines used earlier. I am beginning to feel reasonably confident that the HD was never fitted with the 194 in South Africa (or anywhere else). Mr.choppers | ✎ 02:16, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's always hard to tell when they only give model years but it looks like the 194 engine was in the HR, not the HD. Stepho talk 11:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here is some interesting text from a knowledgeable sounding chap on a message board:

Holden was introduced to South Africa in 1960 to give the Pontiac-Opel dealers a bigger, six-cylinder saloon that was cheaper and more rugged than the Opel Kapitan. South African-assembled Holdens began using the locally-made engines during the HR's run, though one of my data books suggests that all HR Premiers used Holden engines. There were even Holdens with the 2,5-litre Chevy four-cylinder, but they sold poorly and were quickly dropped. HK-HT-HG Kingswoods and Premiers used 3200, 3800, and 4100 versions of the Chevy engine. The Belmont Utility, however, was a commercial vehicle, subject to only nominal local-content requirements, and used the 3,3-litre Holden engine. All South African Monaros were Holden 308s.

Many Australians hold the belief that the Holden-bodied South African Chevrolets replaced local Holdens but that generally wasn't the case. GM South Africa had two different sales channels at that time, much like the set-up in Canada, with one channel selling Chevrolet and Vauxhall, the other selling Pontiac and Opel. 1967 looked like this:

1. Chevrolet Caprice, Chevrolet Chevelle, Chevrolet Chevy II, Vauxhall Viscount, Vauxhall Cresta, Vauxhall Victor, Vauxhall Viva

2. Pontiac Parisienne, Acadian Beaumont, Acadian Canso, Holden Premier, Holden Special, Opel Rekord, Opel Kadett

Rationalisation was in short order, and the bigger Vauxhalls and the Canadian models were gone by late 1969, leaving just the Viva, Kadett, Ranger/Rekord, and Chevrolet/Holden. The lineups were more or less tit-for-tat, but Chevrolet got the long-boot Constantia while Holden got the Monaro GTS! Nevertheless, GM was losing market share and it was decided to merge all the dealers and concentrate on one brand. So in early 1971, the remaining Rekords and Holdens were dismissed and all GM dealers became "Chevrolet" outlets, though the Kadett continued until 1974 and the low-volume Manta was always on offer as an Opel. So, the Holden Ute and Monaro then became, respectively, the Chevrolet El Camino and Chevrolet SS Coupe.

Trivia: GMSA did not produce the bodies for the local Holden-derived Chevrolets. Holden pressed the Chevrolet-style front panels, grilles, and bumpers and included them in CKD kits. The discontinuation of the Holden brand obviated the need for separate Chevrolet and Holden styling, which is why the South African HQs and HJs (known locally as AQ and AJ!) used Holden's front styling, but with Chevrolet-style grille patterns.

Obviously we can't cite directly from this, but I would love to find out more about Chevrolet four-banger Holdens! Also provides some minor underpinning for the HD not having been fitted with the 194. Mr.choppers | ✎ 01:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He's mostly correct but he got the dealer channels wrong. One franchise sold Chevrolet and Opel and the other sold Pontiac, Acadian, Beaumont, Holden, Vauxhall and Bedford. In 1966 it was possible to buy the Acadian Canso, Holden, and the big Vauxhalls off the same showroom floor. The Acadian was pointless, but the Holden was sold as a cheaper, more rugged alternative to the Vauxhall Cresta, and thus, through the HD, no Premiers were offered.

South Africa's local-content scheme began 31 December 1963. There were two categories: "assembled" cars, with 25% minimum content (by mass), and "manufactured" at 35%. The former were technically imports and subject to import restrictions. However, the latter had no such restrictions and assemblers could produce as many as they could sell. From 31 December 1966, the content was raised to 35% and 45% respectively, and most manufacturers began producing engines locally to meet the requirement. GMSA chose the Vauxhall Viva unit and the four- and six-cylinder Chevrolet engines, likely because of their hefty mass, and were fitted to some models from the middle of 1966. The "130" engine was based on the "153" and was fitted to the Opel Rekord and Vauxhall Victor, but their rough operation and awful Carter carburettor caused a precipitous decline in Rekord sales.

So the Holden HD would have been fitted with the Holden engine. If any HDs were made with the "194" it would have been towards the end of its production run. The "153" was not produced until 1968 and was not fitted to Holdens, though I've seen suggestions online that it was. The HR was introduced at the end of 1966, initially only offered as the Special and was powered by the Chevrolet "194". The Premier was added during 1967 and featured the Holden engine. This was because the Special was a higher-volume "manufactured" model, whilst the Premier was a lower-volume "assembled" model. Local-content applied to specific models, not across an entire range.

Chevrolet-powered HK and HT Holdens were offered and the Holden "308" was optional on later Premiers. The HG had a very short run, only a few months, as Holden and the Opel Rekord met their demises when GMSA was organised into a single franchise in early 1971.

Much of this is from memory, but some reference to:

"A Century of Cars" - Fred Schnetler

"Auto Data Digest 82/83" - published by Mead & McGrouther

and some scans I have of old price lists from "Car" magazine Yossarian67 (talk) 07:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Yossarian67: - thanks! So still inconclusive regarding the 194 and the HD. I purchased the Schnetler book; I don't expect it to help me any more than it did you but it does sound interesting. Mr.choppers | ✎ 13:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding comparison to Vauxhall Victor

I believe that the statement "Body styling exhibited strong similarities to Vauxhall's FC Victor of the previous year.." is an overstatement. Yes, there are some similarities between the two vehicles and that both Holden and Vauxhall were part of GM, but it also needs to be recognised that the styling of this time was moving to a simpler, more "boxier" appearance - you only need look at contemporaries such as the Ford Cortina mk2 (1966), Ford Falcon XR (1966) and Hillman Hunter (1966), which were all noticeably more squarer designs that their preceding models.

At best I believe the sentence should be amended to read "Body styling exhibited some similarities ..", but IMO would be more accurate if it was rephrased along the lines of the styling trend I described above. In the meantime, I have added a "citation needed" template to this comment, as it appears it is either referenced from elsewhere or is someone's personal opinion, and either way should be qualified.
Blammy1 (talk) 18:20, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Liver scoops"

No mention here of the adverse public reaction to the fairing alongside the headlights, which continued to the front bumper, nicknamed "liver scoops" though I doubt this model was any more dangerous to pedestrians than any other. Bullbars, which are far more dangerous, received no such publicity. Anyhow, as I remember, its replacement (the HR) was rolled out with almost unseemly haste. Doug butler (talk) 21:03, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have reliable sources for the nickname "liver scoops" being particularly relevant?

The HD was nicknamed "hard to drive" while the HR was nicknamed "hastily rectified".

I found this reference for comparing them: https://www.shannons.com.au/club/news/classic-garage/1965-67-holden-hdhr-x2-two-many-carbs/

The HR was a facelift, so it was relatively easy to bring out quickly. It fixed many suspension issues and brought in a bigger version of the red motor. It also made it more what Australians looked for rather than a scale-down American car. American bosses continuously thought that what sold best in the US would also sell best everywhere else. The HD reflected US trends and it correspondingly sold less than expected. The HR reflected Australian trends and it correspondingly sold better. Stepho talk 23:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]