Talk:Hot hatch/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Hot hatch. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Hot hatchback is now a redirect

This now represents a compilation and reworking of Hot hatch and Hot hatchback. Hot hatchback is now a redirect to this page. I hope this version includes the best of both articles - if not, you know where the edit button is :) akaDruid 17:38, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sedan bodies in the hot hatch page

I've done a few clean-ups, including a larger number of vehicles versions. I've also added a pre-1980's listing, that includes a few sedan bodies car with a size rationale for doing so. --Pc13 08:33, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think the sedans should be moved to sports sedan page as they are not in hatchback configuration.120.140.128.1 (talk) 05:01, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Suzuki Baleno GTI

Stop adding this car because it does not exist. Anyone who claims to have a Baleno GTI was conned into buying a 1.6 GLX with tuning bits. The most powerful Baleno was the Baleno 1.8 GLX which had a 1.8L engine with 120hp. It was not available in the 3-door hatch, only in the sedan and the wagon, that's why Suzuki homologated the wagon for motor racing. The hatch had 1.3L and 1.6L engines. --Pc13 15:55, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Edit: The UK market was in fact treated to a limited run of Baleno GSR, which consisted of the hatchback body (in Blueish Black Pearl or Silver Metallic) and the 119bhp J18a engine. This is the model which folk mistakenly label as GTI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robgoldt (talk • contribs) 18:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Here are two sources that seem to corroborate that the Suzuki Baleno GTi hatchback does exist:

Chaheel Riens (talk) 07:56, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

AMC added to the list

No mention of AMC until now. Even though the manufacturer went defunct in the mid 1980s, it definitely made some cars worthy of meeting the hot hatch criteria. Gremlin X, a Gremlin with a V-8, Hurst transmission, and improved suspension deserves some merit. As does the Spirit AMX. Even variants of these models available with the slant 6 could be made to come quite alive with modest tweaks. Unfortunately the idea behind these cars, although popular to a niche audience, occured two decades too early gain acceptance in the North American mainstream.

Missing UK Hot Hatches

datsun /nissan cherry gti and zx turbo
alfa arna ti
rover 220gsi/ turbo
daihatsu charade turbo
mg maestro efi/turbo
volvo 360glt
colt 1600 turbo
colt mirage turbo
fiat tipo 2.0 sedicivolve
talbot sunbeam ti
vw polo g40
nissan sunny zx
proton persona sri 5dr
seat ibiza sxi
mitsubishi lancer gti
honda civic gt
fiat strada abarth
metro gti 16v/mpi gti 16v
vauxhall astra sr/sri /vxr

a volvo 480 was marketed as a coupe not a hatch , likewise megane coupe -they are not hot hatches, also datsun did not have hot hatches until 1984 and not previous to this (user) tali 09/11/06

I've added a few more of these into the appropriate sections. Warren (talk) 21:53, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Also missing is any reference to Lancia Delta GT, GTie, HF Turbo, HFie, HF 4x4, HF Integrale, etc... No mention of Lancia Y10 Turbo, GTie either. SteveGTI (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Merge

The term "hot hatch" and "sport compact" appear to mean the same thing. But, they are used in different parts of the world. There's a merge discussion over at Talk:Sport compact##Merge_with_Hot_hatch. Several people have opposed, but the arguments given don't make much sense to me. Friday (talk) 19:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

hot hatch vs compact

Seems this article is growing over its original idea about hot hatches, now it includes also some hot small sedans (not all) etc... something needs to be done with article, we cant inlcude all small cars here... --Typ932 ^T·C 11:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. But if you look through the editing history, time and again, editors have tried to trim away the 'sport compacts', and just make the article purely for hot hatches, but they keep on getting reverted or re-inserted. So that is why I am now creating separate sub-headings to differentiate the 'true European' hot hatches - and then adding other non- hot hatch sub-headings so the reader can make up their own mind. But this article has been a real mess for ages now. What do you think to my edits of today? 78.32.143.113 (talk) 11:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Its better now, but I think we should trim down those cars which arent hot hatches, otherwise the article will grow and grow until we have all small power cars here... --Typ932 ^T·C 13:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Do you want to trim away some models which don't fit? 78.32.143.113 (talk) 15:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Saab

The lack of mention of the Saab 900/9-3 (pre-2003) hatchbacks seems to be a glaring omission. Was there ever a hotter hatchback than the Saab 900/9-3SE, especially in the Viggen configuration? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwikisan (talk • contribs) 16:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Might be hot, but too large to be a true hot hatch. Never seen the Saab being referred to as a hot hatch in the press, same as the hotter versions of the related Vauxhall Cavalier. Warren (talk) 17:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Australian market -Pre 1980 hot hatches

Have removed the following as neither are hatches (as noted by the original authors) and it's not a term in use in Australia.

Australian-market pre-1980 hot hatches

Holden Torana SS (LX model, could be considered more a liftback)
Datsun/Nissan Sunny B110 1200 SSS (technically not a hot hatch, due to its four-door saloon design)

Large car

Should high performance version of the large hatchbacks are called hot hatches?120.140.128.1 (talk) 04:50, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

No - cars like the Ford Sierra XR4 and Vauxhall Insignia VXR are large cars and I can't find any reference to these being called hot hatches. Feel free to add back in if references can be found. Warren (talk) 15:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In the list there are now some cars which I would no say as hot hatch like Škoda Octavia vRS, Saab 9.3 even the Renault 19 is on the limit, I have tough hot hacthes are usually small hatchbacks, not cars rivalling

medium size cars in Europe -->Typ932 ^T·C 17:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd agree the Octavia and Saab not really hot hatches due to being a class above a small family hatchback, but would argue that the Renault 19 16v is a good example of a hot hatch (being a similar size to an Escort/Focus). Warren (talk) 17:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Origin of the name 'hot hatch'

In looking for some references for the article, I have yet to find any reference to the term 'hot hatch' prior to 1984. Anyone out there have an earlier reference? Warren (talk) 16:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure you will, or if you do it won't be before 1981. While the VW Golf GTI pre-dates most of the hot hatches, it wasn't until the Fiesta XR2 in 1981, MG Metro in 1982, Peugot 205 in 1984 etc. that the market really exploded for this class of car. I suspect (OR alert!) that the "hot hatch" as a name for a class of cars wouldn't have emerged until their were more than a couple of cars in that class - hence 1984 being the earliest reference you can find. --Biker Biker (talk) 16:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Motor magazine in the UK used the phrase "Hot hatchback" in a review in April 1983 and again in June 1983 (see first page), and by April 1984 it was in use by other magazines e.g. this test in What Car --Biker Biker (talk) 17:03, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Excellent articles. Keep them coming! Warren (talk) 17:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Oxford English Dictionary lists a quote from the October 20 1983 Financial Times Motor Industry Survey "It (VW) hopes that when all versions are introduced including a 130 mph GTi version which should cement VW's position at the top of the ‘*hot’ hatchback league." Aside from above, all I can find before 1983 is "sporting hatchback" Mighty Antar (talk) 00:34, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything else. Other magazines in 1981/1982/1983 used the term "performance hatchback". As for the cars, none of them were a patch on the Opel Manta GTE that I had back then, which replaced my Capri 3.0 V6, and the Manta in turn got replaced with a final edition Capri 280 Brooklands. Hot hatches were for boy racers, real men had real cars :) --Biker Biker (talk) 01:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Ferrari FF

The Ferrari FF page clearly notes that the design of the vehicle is a shooting brake or hatchback. I would presume any V12 powered hatchback to qualify as "hot". FlyingOtter (talk) 23:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Lovely idea, but you've misunderstood the concept of a hot hatch; a normal family hatchback made a bit spicy. As there isn't a 1600cc FF (alas) then the V12 may be a hatchback in design, but isn't a hot hatch as per the definition in this article, which is why some cars like the 1970s and 1980s Reliant Scimitar GTE, the Lotus Eclat and indeed the similar in concept Jensen FF are not included. Warren (talk) 08:17, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The Ferrari FF is definitely NOT a hot hatch, because it's too large for small hatchback class. It's in grand tourer or large hatchback class, instead.120.140.72.135 (talk) 07:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

POV, OR and long lists

This article has become a magnet for people like the now-blocked Barnstarbob to add their favourite car. Can I suggest that the long lists of examples be deleted / heavily pruned? Furthermore I think the whole concept of generations of hot hatch is pure original research. This article should be a prose piece on how the hot hatch originated and has progressed over the years, without false structures such as generations and with only a few well-chosen examples. --Biker Biker (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Prose

Should we remove the list of vehicles? otherwise the article is in prose style, if its meant to concern the list, the tag should be replaced to right section -->Typ932 ^T·C 11:52, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

We should remove the list of vehicles. In my opinion a vehicle can only be called a hot hatch if it has been referred to as such by a reputable source. Delete all the lists and the prose tag isn't needed. --Biker Biker (talk) 12:04, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Yep, the list could be removed, it gives not much encyclopedic value -->Typ932 ^T·C 14:09, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I've made a start with the suggestion above. Will hopefully make an easier to read article in time. However I see there being an edit war if the lists are removed without replacement prose. Warren (talk) 15:28, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Mini Cooper?

Shouldn't be Mini Cooper and Mini Cooper S considered as the first hot hatches? In MY opinion their concepts is just a pure definition of "hot hatch" and thay are much older than Simca or Renault 5. But of course I can be wrong, so I'd like just to put them into discussion instead of changing the article.

The original Mini may have been a hot car but was not a hatchback SteveGTI (talk) 12:58, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Why no mention of Suburu WRX or Mazda 3 Speed?

These cars are currently top of the list for hot hatches currently available in U.S. market and have been as well for awhile. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian of SummaeStudios (talk • contribs) 18:21, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

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Please, help. I made a mistake moving this article (I wanted to move in my language)

Hello! I made a mistake trying to move this article. I wanted to move it in my language but I didn't realized and I made the movement in the English article tab. Sorry!! Please, could you revert my mistake? Thanks in advance! --Ryo567 (talk) 23:06, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Volkswagen Mark I GTI

The Volkswagen Mark I GTI is the main car that made the Hot Hatches popular; Volkswagen Mark I GTI has been in production since 1976 and is still being made today.

The MkI is the main reason why hot hatches were and are still popular today. The MkI GTI was also the first step into making affordable sports cars for the average person and that soon created the golden age of cars. Many JDM, euro, and American car companies made affordable sports cars to compete with the GTI and helped pave the road for the community of tuners and car enthusiast that we have today.[1] The original MkI GTI was made by a team of 7 engineers and had a top speed of 110 mph; they were looking to make a sportier version of the VW Golf and achieved that by putting a 1.6 liter in-line 4 inside of it gaining 110 HP.[2] The MkI was later beaten by the 2.0 16V inside of the MkII and now the GTI currently has a turbocharged 4 cylinder 2.0 liter inside the Mk7 which is the current model of the GTI.[3] The original GTI was popular around the 1970’s and was so popular that the limit to only 5,000 units had to be increased to 420,000 units because of demand.[4] Now the original GTI is still in production and has sold over 2 million units. The reasoning for such a high demand was because it was an affordable family hatchback that was built for performance and is the main reason why hot hatches are so popular. Volkswagen did not even want the GTI initially but they needed a show car for performance and they wanted a newer car to surpass the beetle.[5] The warm hatch was going to be the only version of the golf since Volkswagen didn’t want the GTI originally but the marketing genius Anton Conrad thought maybe the average person would like performance vehicles, especially with the younger customers. Conrad then took a small team and built the GTI even after the disapproval from his bosses which down the road became a huge success.[5]

Back in the 1950-60’s you could only have either an affordable family car or a sports car, there was no in-between until the GTI was manufactured. It created a car renaissance in the 1980’s and inspired many other car companies to make affordable fast cars like the Skyline GTR and Mazda MX-5 which gave speed to the average person.[5] It also inspired many of the hot hatches you see today like the Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Yaris, Bolt, Soul Turbo, Civic Type-R, Elantra GT, Mini Cooper, Veloster N, and BMW X1. [6]These Hot Hatches would not be here today if it were not for the creation of the GTI and was a very important car for the future of hatches. The GTI and most of the hot hatches received a lot of its fame from the UK since most euro cars companies came out with a hatchback body style.[7] Also America did not receive the original GTI that came with 40 more hp instead they got a different version named the GTI rabbit edition that did not contain the European engine so instead it received the same engine with only 1 more hp which hindered the popularity of the vehicle in the US.[3]

The GTI is one of the most popular hatches in the UK and Germany and will most likely stay that way. GTI’s are so popular that they have a car meet every spring in Australia specifically for GTI’s where people can show off their mods on the car. These mods may consist of a new air intake, a tune up, engine swap, lowering springs, body kits, under glow, wheels, turbo swap, and many others. This meetup is called GTI meet at Wörthersee and it is a four day event that people from all across Europe come to see and meet fellow Hot Hatch lovers. This meet is mainly for GTI’s but people bring many different types of Hatches.[8] Meets like this help bring the culture of the hot hatch car community to light and brings the car communities together. Many hot hatches today average around 250-300 hp holding a 2.0 L 4 cylinder turbocharged engine and warm hatches average around 180-200 hp with a 1.8l turbocharged engine. [3]Volkswagen has a warm hatch version of the GTI which is the Golf TSI Mk7 which has 170 hp and is turbocharged as well as an electric golf named the e-golf which has 134 hp.[9]

1. Uccello, Angelo (2019-01-03). "The History of the Hot Hatchback". DriveTribe. Retrieved 2021-04-27.
2. "Volkswagen History: Golf GTI Generations Through the Years". MotorTrend. 2020-06-25. Retrieved 2021-04-27.
3. "History of the Volkswagen GTI: The story of eight generations of the original hot hatch". Motor Authority. Retrieved 2021-04-27.
4. Perkins, Chris (2017-08-03). "How the Volkswagen Golf GTI Changed The Automotive World". Road & Track. Retrieved 2021-04-27.
5. The GTI - Everything You Need To Know | Up To Speed, retrieved 2021-04-27
6. Hall-Geisler, Kristen (September 21, 2020). "13 Best Hot Hatchbacks for 2021". Retrieved April 26, 2021.
7. "Car buyer trends: Europeans prefer hatchbacks, Americans and Indians prefer saloons". Carquirks. 2016-11-17. Retrieved 2021-04-27.
8. Welle (www.dw.com), Deutsche, Cult: VW GTI Meet at Wörthersee | DW | 31.05.2018, retrieved 2021-04-27
9. "2017 Volkswagen Golf TSI Wolfsburg Edition 4-Door 4dr Front-wheel Drive Hatchback Specs and Prices". Autoblog. Retrieved 2021-04-27.

I've removed a variant of this section which was also added to the article. It overstates the role it played in the Hot Hatch evolution. Additionally, it's unencyclopedic in tone - reading more like a blog than an article - and contains several factual errors:

The Mk1 Golf is not still being manufactured
The article makes it clear that hot hatches - or their ancestors even if not a hatch - were available prior to the Golf GTi
The Peugeot 205 GTi, Fiesta XR2 and Escort XR3 all played equal parts in popularising the hot hatch.
The above version contains many statements that cannot be verified due to the lack of actual citations.

Chaheel Riens (talk) 16:45, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

US market - article reflects bias and a lot of ignorance

Every time I look at this article I see something that reflects ignorance of the US car market. Who says hatchbacks have historically been scarce in the US? That is patent nonsense. In the 70s the AMC Gremlin and Pacer, Chevy Chevette, Ford Pinto (Mercury Bobcat), and Dodge (Chrysler) Omni (Plymouth Horizon) were all massively successful, and those are just the top sellers from the four major US manufacturers. Popular imports included the Honda Civic, VW Rabbit (Golf), and many others. The market widened further in the 80s with models such as the Chevy Citation (used as a police car in many US jurisdictions - talk about a hot hatch!) and an even broader array of imports, such as the Renault Encore and a huge variety of Japanese models. Even the Yugo was sold here for a while, though it was a disastrous failure because it was such a crappy car with no parts supply network.

What is going on with this bias concerning the US market for hatchbacks? They were in HUGE demand, especially after the OPEC oil embargo. You couldn't cross a street without seeing one drive past. Everyone wanted one, either to be frugal or to be seen to be frugal. Whoever wrote these references to hatchbacks being scarce in the American market does not know what Americans were driving historically. The earliest car that fits this article's definition of a hot hatch is neither European nor Japanese. It's the AMC Gremlin, an American car released in model year 1970 (available in February 1970, possibly earlier). The US market was critical to the development and marketing of hatchbacks worldwide. This article must not dismiss hatchbacks in the US as a scarcity. Dcs002 (talk) 23:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)