Talk:Kid Rock/Archive 3

I must be blind.

Because his son is not mentioned in this article. He was born somewhere in 1990-1991. Georgia Peachez (talk) 19:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Genres

As another user and a friend of mine, Greg D. Barnes recently pointed out on my talk page, there are even more sources listing him as nu metal and I believe with that comment from him we have a consensus of users in favor of the label and a total of six sources now all citing him as nu metal, so under WP:RS and WP:CON it's going in the box. RG (talk)20:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm taking this off my watchlist and I'll let you guys continue to edit war over this, because I know this isn't the end of this. You really need to get others involved on this discussion rather than the constant back and forth. While you're at it, see WP:LAME. Good luck. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 20:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey Jauerback, that comment made absolutely NO SENSE! LOL! "I'll let you guys continue to edit war over this." Yeah right! I NEVER have had an edit war over this topic. I was merely an observer; watching the constant bickering between users--so I did my own research, and found sources saying "Kid Rock is Nu Metal" or "Kid Rock is a Nu Metal Act." And the constant back and forth comment doesn't make sense either! LOL--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Greg, maybe, just maybe the comment wasn't directed at you. Did that occur to you? Thanks. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 00:46, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe not directly, but your comment was indirectly towards me.--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 15:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• There was no consensus. And stop adding sources that do not back up what you were trying to cite. (Sugar Bear (talk) 00:31, 19 March 2010 (UTC))

You have eyes, read the sources it's that simple and with Greg's contribution to this page we have consensus as well. RG (talk) 19:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

LOL! My eyes see a very funny argument here...--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 02:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

The guidelines state to aim for generality and not to include terms not backed up by reliable sources. The consensus was to abide by the guidelines, not to start another account and claim that you are a "friend" of yourself to back up your own argument. The fact that neither of you are able to make the distinction between stating an opinion because you think it is true, and writing based on the overall consensus of reliable sources leads me to question this "new user" who is suddenly chiming into an argument that was put to rest ages ago. The article isn't trying to say that this individual does or does not perform a specific genre. We're not supposed to do that. We're supposed to abide by the guidelines, not streamline our own perspective. (Sugar Bear (talk) 18:00, 21 March 2010 (UTC))

If Sugar Bear wasn't such an IDIOT, he would know that I'm a SEPARATE user and not "Rock Genre." Hey, so I'm his friend backing him up on a source--does that make me a sockpuppet of Rock Genre? LMFAO! What a fucking moron!! If you learn to READ, that source I provided says quote: "Ozzfest embraced the so-called Nu Metal acts: Korn, Kid Rock, Limp Bizkit, Incubus, Godsmack, System Of A Down, etc (there's many more). All these bands distinguished themselves from traditional heavy metal by mixing metal with rap, etc." So yeah, try reading some of those sources before writing stupid comments down.--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 20:36, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that doesn't add any strength to your argument, particularly considering that Godsmack and System of a Down did not fuse hip hop with heavy metal, and Incubus and SOAD are not generally considered nu metal. In fact, there's quite a few sources stating that Incubus and SOAD are not nu metal. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:41, 21 March 2010 (UTC))

I PARTIALLY quoted the source. read the WHOLE thing.--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 03:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to use checkuser if you think Greg's a puppet of mine, you'll be proven wrong. Your only argument against the inclusion of nu metal are the guidelines, which may I remine you are just that and second, you hardly ever follow them yourself. I've seen you add "Westcoast hip hop" or whatever in infoboxes on several ocasions. RG (talk) 03:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Album infoboxes do not have the same guidelines as artist infoboxes. (Sugar Bear (talk) 18:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC))

WP:CON, law. WP:RS, ditto. Look I'm really tried of repeating myself and these conflicts have been going on for months now. If the consensus and sources say stay, than nu metal stays. RG (talk) 19:25, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The consensus and sources do not say stay. Guidelines, consensus and sources clearly disagree with the "both" of you. (Sugar Bear (talk) 16:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC))

• Online ticket websites and other commercial sources (sources intended to promote a product) are not reliable sources. This comprises every source RG has submitted under his "Greg D. Barnes" account. A sockpuppetry investigation has been opened, as well as a report for incivility for the comment in which you referred to me as a "fucking moron". (Sugar Bear (talk) 16:51, 24 March 2010 (UTC))

Yep, continue with the ignorant comments!--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 17:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

And here's insult number two. Calling another "fucking moron", and then "ignorant" is not a good way to state your case. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2010 (UTC))

Let's review the new sources:

• • http://www.onlinetickets.com/events/concert_tours/kid_rock/tickets.html
• Not a reliable source. This is a concert ticket website.
  • Somebody Scream!: Rap Music's Rise to Prominence in the Aftershock of Black Power by Marcus Reeves
• Is Marcus Reeves a music expert, or a journalist? I'm thinking latter, so no go, at least in regards to this being in the Infobox.

And, the whole point being that a genre being sourced does not mean that it absolutely has to be in the Infobox. Look at how they have things set up in the article Frank Zappa. That's clean. Endless lists of genres is not helpful in an educational context. This is an encyclopedia, not fan site #369. Write in the context of music history, not in the context of a Kid Rock fan. (Sugar Bear (talk) 21:17, 24 March 2010 (UTC))

I'm not going to wade on this particular dispute, and I don't know what the exact quote is from Somebody Scream! is that backs up this claim, but I find this an unusual comment: "Is Marcus Reeves a music expert, or a journalist? I'm thinking latter, so no go, at least in regards to this being in the Infobox." Music (and other) journalists are exactly the kind of reliable sources we need for sourcing music genres. I wasn't previously aware of Marcus Reeves, but it appears he, and his book are fairly eminent; this is a substantial New York Times review of the book here for instance; it easily passes WP:RS. However, as for the ongoing dispute, I'll leave you to it... Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:19, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Reeves' partial CV here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Wait why are you telling ME this? I don't edit genres alot on wikipedia. I was here originally to help out on a source, then stumbled into this useless argument!--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 22:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• Again, the guidelines and reliable sources are against you. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC))

WP:CON and WP:RS are both in favor of nu metal, it will stay for such reasons. I really don't want to repeat myself continuously here. This disagreement should have been ended quite some time ago. RG (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)~

WP:CON and WP:RS are both against nu metal, it will be removed for such reasons. I really don't want to repeat myself continuously here. This disagreement should have been ended quite some time ago. (Sugar Bear (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2010 (UTC))

I don't find the mocking very amusing. If you wish to comment on the genres please do such professionally. RG (talk) 16:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry if it appeared as mocking to you, but your posts appear as mockery to me when you state the opposite of what is actually true. (Sugar Bear (talk) 17:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC))

• I would like to suggest putting only one genre in the infobox that everyone would agree he clearly represents, I don't know what that would be but hip hop is listed first so let's start there. Then have a section within the article, that is fully sourced, that describes any other genres that he also represents. Text describing why he is x or y is much more informative than a list in the infobox anyway and for some reason doesn't become so controversial. Peace out my friends. J04n(talk page) 00:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Page protected

I have protected this page due to the persistent edit war. Note that I am not condoning Greg's edits, who I think needs to mature a little bit by his most recent contributions. However, further edit warring after the protection expires will probably result in editor blocks. Tan | 39 19:02, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Not that my edits were constructive, but I was trying to get the article back with it's proper sources. I was just trying to be funny.--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 19:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The "LOL someone's in love with us LOL" crap has to stop; this isn't middle school. Tan | 39 19:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

All right, it won't happen again. Sugar Bear just kept ACCUSING me and Rock Genre of being sockpuppets (after all the evidence says not), so I put that "love" comment to be funny. Hey, at least I didn't personally attack him!--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 19:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Plus, you should review Sugar Bear's entire edit history for some "mature" edits--especially the last month's or so. Then you will see why I make stupid posts (that will stop though).--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I still don't understand how something so small turned into such a major issue. RG (talk) 19:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Because SB has something against Nu-Metal.--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 19:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Because the regulations and guidelines are against needlessly expanding genre lists to fit your POV against the sources and editor consensus. As pointed above, one of the sources you added is a concert ticket site, and the other is not a music expert. (Sugar Bear (talk) 19:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC))

• I'm not quite sure maturity is an option here. Rockgenre has repeatedly removed any comment regarding this issue from his talk page, except for comments from Greg. Because my request for an SPI on these users was denied, and the "Greg" account has not been blocked for this account's repeated insults and aggravation, I don't know where these users expect this thing to head. If these two accounts agree not to edit-war and let the revision that was agreed upon by consensus, which was to list the genres as "rock, hip hop, country", we would be fine. But, so far, these accounts have refused to admit that the sources and consensus do not agree with their actions, and have been unable to remain civil for any period of time. Neither account will agree to the valid compromise that was accepted by consensus, so this edit-war has continued. I find it ridiculously absurd that the only argument against the compromise is to claim that I am biased against the artist and the genre and that my actions were a result of an attempt to "ruin the article". What kind of "maturity" is that? (Sugar Bear (talk) 19:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC))

"I find it ridiculously absurd that the only argument against the compromise is to claim that I am biased against the artist", no the argument has been the numerous sources and consensus.RG (talk) 19:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The numerous sources and consensus are against nu metal. The newly-added sources doesn't change this fact - the first new source sells concert tickets. The other new source is a book by a journalist discussing race in hip hop, not an expert on music genres. And, furthermore, the argument for or against including specific subgenres has no basis here, being that it was agreed to include generalized genres. Why do you not understand that the inclusion of specific genres is not what this issue is about? (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC))

The overall consensus of the sources does not point to your POV. The guidelines state to generalize the genres to avoid edit-warring like this. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC))

I don't like the edit warring that has happened on this page recently. And I thought the one that I'm in currently was bad (an unrelated one, that is). I'm not going to point out any names, but I have seen at least one of these people in another edit war in the past; it may have been with genres as well, along with claiming consensus to be on the person's side. Oy vey. This sucks. I am sort of suspicious about the sources, so I think I would vote toward to the more concise version. I am also skeptical about Kid Rock being associated with Nu Metal; thus, I'm siding with Sugar Bear. I'm not going to participate in the edit war, though. I fnd the edit war ridiculous. Also, for a side reason, I don't usually deal with musicians who have the popularity of Kid Rock. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 03:27, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

"I am also skeptical about Kid Rock being associated with Nu Metal", why would you be skeptical of something so heavily sourced? RG (talk) 15:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not "heavily" sourced. There's about one or two sources stating that he performs nu metal, whereas rock, rap rock and hip hop are all better sourced. One source, a book on the subject of "nu metal" states that Kid Rock is not a part of the genre. I don't have an opinion on the matter, my concern is not that I feel or don't feel that this musician plays any specific genre, being that it does not affect my life what someone calls music that I don't listen to. But if you're going to follow Wikipedia's rules and guidelines, you can't put every genre every musician was ever associated with on the page. And, as stated above, the text in the actual article says more than anything in the Infobox. This is a minor issue that should not have escalated as it has. I have no idea why this is being argued. Most users agree that Kid Rock plays hip hop and rock music, so why the argument? Does this person's music really have that much of an affect on your life? "Bawitdaba" does not cure cancer, so it is not important that we dispute whether or not it or its artist is "nu metal" or whatever. This is silly. (Sugar Bear (talk) 23:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC))

"There's about one or two sources stating that he performs nu metal," Not true at all. "One source, a book on the subject of "nu metal" states that Kid Rock is not a part of the genre." Again false, I even showed you the page in the book awhile. RG (talk) 03:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

RG, what you have stated is false. Your POV-pushing attempts are astoundingly absurd. Does anyone take you seriously anymore, now that you're editing articles and repeatedly adding sources that do not back up what they are supposed to back up? (Sugar Bear (talk) 23:14, 5 April 2010 (UTC))