Talk:Killing of Michael Brown/Lede sandbox

I suggest that we get as many actual quotes from the sources we have into this page as possible as reminders of what we are drawing on. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 03:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Michael, I would be careful with quotes from sources, as that can be a dangerous road, since there is so much POV rhetoric out there. How can we (or you I'll likely be blocked) make this article purely objective? The point/counterpoint approach just gets confusing. As I learned here tonight, even in trying to be objective here this evening I failed and learned a lot from the discussion. I probably went to far, but maybe I got some discussion going. Have a nice evening. I know that everyone is trying to do what is right. --Kevin Murray (talk) 04:30, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not suggesting that we add quotes to the article. I'm suggesting that we be 100% lucid as to exactly what all of the witnesses and even the fuzzy hearsay repeaters who claim to be speaking for Wilson have said. If there is substantial disagreement between named witnesses, say for example, Johnson, and Belmar, I do not believe that we should be reporting a "fact" as though it is an undisputed "fact." Without actual quotes available to those of us working on this clean up, how can we have confidence that we're not just operating from false memory syndrome? Michael-Ridgway (talk) 05:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point Michael. It's a fine line to walk. What I have seen too frequently are WP writers quoting POV sources, to add their own POV. As it compounds it gets out of control with clutter and confusion. On the other hand, selectively including quotes is akin to primary research. When I try to get to an objective middle point in an article, I strip any adjectives and quotes; especially in the lede. Wp has problems when the article is either too prominent and draws too much attention, or when the article is too obscure and attracts no oversight. This is where the project loses credibility with the general public. --Kevin Murray (talk) 12:25, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would question whether any of us have the right to insert an "objective middle" into the narrative of what happened the day that Michael Brown died. If the police chief says a couple of bullets but the audio shows 11 and the autopsy says 6 hit, taking a middle path down those data points does a distinct disservice to your readers. The story of what happened is not a matter of POV at all. It is a matter of *what* the people who were there say happened. Those people would include, of course, Officer Wilson. If he says one thing, or if we have reason to believe that he has directed others to say what he would say for him, then his version of events should be presented. If all of the witnesses have something different to say, then their versions of events should also be presented. If there are reliable sources who are doing the synthesis and analysis and are concluding that there is similarity or lack of similarity in what the witnesses, including Officer Wilson, are saying, then such analysis and synthesis should be presented in proportion to its WP:WEIGHT. Where there is unanimity in the witness statements, I see little problem with treating the same as established fact. My preference was to break up the claims and group them as follows, an insertion which got immediately reverted:

I broke up the shooting incident reporting into four parts.

1) Police points which differ from the consensus of citizen witnesses

2) Citizen witness points which differ from the police version of events

3) Undisputed points

4) Other points of note

That way, Wikipedia stayed out of it altogether. We let the witnesses speak for themselves, unblurred and unhomogenized.

To insinuate that our blended version of events is superior to any and all of the versions of those who were there, how can that be ethically justified?

Hence the information below. You and the other editors can use it or ignore it. But you need to and have to know that criticism, if you omit the witnesses version of events and inject, instead, your own synthesis of events, if not preventable, will be, nonetheless, deserved.

Michael-Ridgway (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest looking at this (I believe,) impressive analysis of the audio held up against the testimony of Dorian Johnson and Tiffany Mitchell. National Review Online: "If the Michael Brown Audio Is Real, It May Corroborate Piaget Cranshaw’s Account" http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/386338/if-michael-brown-audio-real-it-may-corroborate-piaget-cranshaws-account-charles-c-w Michael-Ridgway (talk) 04:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Police: St. Louis County, Belmar, Jon: Transcript of some of what Belmar said in the 8/10 StL Co news conference

Yesterday, about noon, in the 2900 block of Canfield, a Ferguson police officer had an encounter with two individuals on the street.

In fact, one of those individuals, at the time, as the officer was exiting the police car, allegedly pushed the police officer back into the car where he physically assaulted the police officer.

It is our understanding at this point in the investigation that within the police car, there was a struggle over the officer's weapon.

There was at least one shot fired within the car.

After that, the officer came back out of the car.

He exited his vehicle.

And there was a shooting that occurred.

Where the officer, in fact, shot the subject.

They were fatal injuries. The entire scene -- from approximately the car door to the shooting is about 35 feet.

There were shall casings recovered.

The shell cases were all matched to one weapon.

There were more than a few shell casings recovered.

I cannot say at this time how many times the subject was struck by gunfire.

It's hard to know.

It was more than just a couple, but I don't think it was many more than that.

The medical examiner is conducting an investigation today to determine that.

Please keep in mind, it's going to take at least as long as six weeks for the toxicology reports to come back on this.

Chief Tom Jackson, who is sitting to my left,

Johnson, Dorian: Quasi-transcript of some or all of what Dorian Johnson which played on MSNBC

"I seen the barrel of the gun pointed at my friend,” he said. “He had it pointed at him and said ‘I’ll shoot,’ one more time.”

A second later Johnson said he heard the first shot go off.

“I seen the fire come out of the barrell,” he said. “I could see so vividly what was going on because I was so close.”

Johnson says he was within arm’s reach of both Brown and the officer. He looked over at Brown and saw blood pooling through his shirt on the right side of the body.

“The whole time [the officer] was holding my friend until the gun went off,” Johnson noted.

Brown and Johnson took off running together. There were three cars lined up along the side of the street. Johnson says he ducked behind the first car, whose two passengers were screaming. Crouching down a bit, he watched Brown run past.

“Keep running, bro!,” he said Brown yelled. Then Brown yelled it a second time. Those would be the last words Johnson’s friend, “Big Mike,” would ever say to him.

Brown made it past the third car. Then, “blam!” the officer took his second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, Johnson says Brown stopped, turned with his hands up and said “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!”

By that point, Johnson says the officer and Brown were face-to-face. The officer then fired several more shots. Johnson described watching Brown go from standing with his hands up to crumbling to the ground and curling into a fetal position.

Michael-Ridgway (talk) 05:10, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Crenshaw, Piaget: Quasi-transcript of one of Piaget Crenshaw's interview statements

It looked like the officer was trying to pull Brown into the car, [Crenshaw said.]

When that didn’t work, she said the officer chased after Brown and shot multiple times,

though none of those shots appeared to hit Brown.

In the end, Crenshaw said, Brown “turned around and then was shot multiple times.”

Mitchell, Tiffany

Tiffany Mitchell, who watched the shooting unfold, told CNN on Wednesday that the police’s version of events – that Brown assaulted the officer and tried to grab his gun – was not true.

Brown did not enter the police vehicle, as authorities have claimed, but there appeared to be a struggle at the window, Ms Mitchell said.

’It looked as if Michael was pushing off and the cop was trying to pull him in,’ she told CNN.

’The cop shot a fire through the window. Michael breaks away and starts running away but the officer continued shooting.’

Ms Mitchell had gone to the Ferguson, Missouri neighborhood on Saturday to pick up an employee, Piaget Crenshaw, for work. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 05:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of one of Piaget Crenshaw's statements

If 10 shots were fired, and only four shots were fired in the final fusillade, but Michael Brown got hit by at least six bullets, then two of the shots had to have been fired before he turned around.

The witnesses were quite convinced initially that Brown had been hit in the back. But it's possible that they ASSUMED that he had been hit in the back, not because of seeing a bullet go through his T-shirt, but because of how sudden his spin around was, and possibly because of some kind of jerking motion that he did on being hit.

If we take as false the claim that Michael took one bullet at the car when Wilson fired the first shot, then at least two of the six bullets had to him him while he had his back turned.

If Dorian is correct that he took bullet number 1 at the car, then only one bullet hit him while he was running away -- completely consistent with what every named witness has had to say. The only thing they assumed incorrectly was where the bullet actually hit Michael. We now know from the autopsy that that wasn't his back. But we now also know, by doing simple subtraction, that it had to be at least one. Michael-Ridgway (talk) 05:25, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The "analysis" above is too plain for argument.

Thankfully, I am not the only one saying it. Daily Kos is on it. (Found by searching Google for: Michael Brown bullet math.)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/20/1323386/-Ferguson-PD-Confirms-Officer-Wilson-Shot-at-Brown-as-He-Ran-Away# Michael-Ridgway (talk) 15:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Police, Ferguson City, Jackson, Thomas: CNN discussion of Chief Thomas Jackson's comments six days in (on the day the officer was named and shoplifting video released

Note that some words are clearly wrong, probably due to machine transcription or quick edits without review by humans.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: I'm Wolf Blitzer in for Anderson.

The sun going down on Ferguson, Missouri after a very big day. And after six days of growing public pressure, the police department finally released the name of the officer who shot and killed 18-year- old Michael Brown. The that officer's name Darren Wilson.

The department also released an incident report out an alleged convenience store robbery and video purportedly showing Brown doing the crime, allegedly stealing small cigars and Brown shoving a clerk. The report calls it a strong armed robbery.

There were mixed messages today from the police department. Earlier in the day, Ferguson police chief Thomas Jackson laid out a timeline that left the impression officer Wilson was responding to the robbery call when he shot Michael Brown, that as you might imagine set off anger in the community. People calling it victim blaming, character assassination and a distraction from the central question, did officer Wilson shoot an unarmed man who had his hands up in surrender. The alleged robbery, they said, had nothing to do with the officer's decision to shoot. Then, in a true bombshell late in the day, chief Jackson changed his story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF THOMAS JACKSON, FERGUSON POLICE: There were two separate officers. This robbery does not relate to the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown. The initial contact between the officer and Mr. Brown was not related to the robbery.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Why did he stop Michael Brown?

JACKSON: Because they were walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic. That was it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Officer Wilson, he said was not aware that a robbery had taken place or Michael Brown was suspected of it or suspected of anything for that matter. Then just a little while later, he changed the story again telling our Don Lemon that yes, officer Wilson did know about the robbery, but did not know Brown was the suspect until he saw cigars in Brown's hand and made the connection. You are going o hear more from the police chief shortly.

Also, from Eric Davis, Michael Brown's cousin, and from Dorian Johnson, he is the other person purportedly on that same convenient store videotape. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael-Ridgway (talk • contribs) 05:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The fake Facebook post that was supposed to be from Darren Wilson, per Breitbart.com

my friends and family have been afraid to put out what really happened due to the severe threats.but here is the truth of what happened. as much as i can tell you at this point.

they were walking in the middle of the street. i pulled my vehicle up, rolled my window down and told them to get out of the street. they refused an yelled back cussing - saying they were already almost where they are going.

I pulled further up and over. i was watching them and at that point i got the call in that there was a strong arm robbery. the description they gave was the same as the two and they had something in their hand that looked like it could be the cigars.

i backed my car up and tried to get out of my car, but they slammed my door shut to prevent me from getting out. i started to get out again and stood up, but michael came and started to shove me back in to the car. he started punching me in the face and at that point i grabbed for my gun

Michael grabbed for the gun. he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. the gun goes off after it is shoved. michael took off and got to be about 35 ft away

my first protocol is to pursue, so i yell “freeze” , Michael and his friend turn around. Michael taunts and yells saying “what are you gonna do about it” stuff like that. And next he started bumrushing me. he just started coming at me at full speed so i started shooting. he kept coming. i definitely think the toxicology report will show that he was not right and under the influence of something

this is my account of what happened (at least, what I can openly share at this point). much of what you will hear on Tv and radio is very inaccurate. i will be deactivating my page shortly so please copy this to share the truth. i appreciate your support - especially from my police family

Transcript of Josie's Phone call to Dana Loesch Show

“He pulled up ahead of them. And then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery. And, they gave a description. And, he’s looking at them and they got something in their hands and it looks like it could be what, you know those cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them. Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did. And, then he opened the car again. He tried to get out. He stands up.

And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and them Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off.

Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, “Freeze!” Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.”

New York Times quote of police source admitting shots were fired as Brown and Johnson ran away

 As Officer Wilson got out of his car, the men were running away. 
 The officer fired his weapon but did not hit anyone, 
 according to law enforcement officials. 
 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us/shooting-accounts-differ-as-holder-schedules-visit.html?ref=us&_r=2
 Michael-Ridgway (talk) 15:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Brady. Transcript of interview with Anderson Cooper, CNN, Anderson Cooper, 360.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So when did you first realized something was happening?

MICHAEL BRADY, EYE WITNESS: Well, this is a little bit after 11:30ish, friend of mine actually woke me up out of nap. He comes over. I step outside waiting for like three to five minutes. After that, I come in say some to my fiancee in the kitchen and then I go into the bed room. Within the two minutes in the bed room I heard an altercation outside and ...

COOPER: What did you hear?

BRADY: Just some heavy struggle you know, like a strong voice, like a strong voice. I'm not sure, you know, what word is exchange exactly but it's just a strong voice.

COOPER: So what did you do then?

BRADY: (inaudible), when in heard the altercation I looks out the window and I see somebody at Ferguson police window, some kind of tussle going on here.

COOPER: So you saw somebody at the window of the police car?

BRADY: Yes.

COOPER: Police officer was still in the vehicle.

BRADY: Yeah, inside the vehicle. So like I say there's some kind of tussle going on. He also had a friend also. He runs on the side of the car, because all of a sudden ,they just takes off running. After the tussle?

COOPER: Right.

BRADY: They'd just takes off running.

COOPER: Did you know Mike Brown?

BRADY: No, no.

COOPER: OK.

BRADY: I see him, you know, around or whatever. So ...

COOPER: But it was Mike Brown at that vehicle?

BRADY: Yes.

COOPER: And you said there was a tussle, how long did it go on for that you saw it?

BRADY: Seconds, seconds, 10 seconds I should have say.

COOPER: Did you see -- when the tussle was around, did you see was one person were being pulled in or pulled out or ...

BRADY: Oh, no. He was just exactly at the window. It made it look look like he was trying to get away.

COOPER: You couldn't tell exactly what was going on.

BRADY: Yeah, but, you know, I just seen some kind of tussle going on through the window. So -- but, like I say he has a friend also and he stand in like in the front of the police cruiser, on the bumper side, on the passenger side but like five feet away from it though.

And like I say, all of the sudden they just take off running. Mr. Brown, he just runs directly down the middle of the street and his friend is -- there was a car that was park on the sidewalk, the Ferguson cop, his vehicle was in the middle of the straight diagonal.

So like I said, they take off running.

COOPER: Had there been a shot when there was still that tussle with the police.

BRADY: I'm not -- I didn't hear the shot, I didn't hear the shot. Quite a few people that were around say they heard a shot go off in the car. Maybe they ...

COOPER: But the important thing is what you heard. You did not hear it?

BRADY: Right, right, right. So I definitely didn't hear that. So like I say his friend takes off running and like I said, the parked car was on the sidewalk and, you know, like I say he is far like five feet away from a police cruiser in the middle of the street. So like I said they just takes off running and I see the officer, he get out of the car, emerge and just immediately start shooting. So (inaudible).

COOPER: You say he immediately starts shooting. You're saying -- he didn't say anything, he didn't ...

BRADY: Like I say, I didn't hear because everything -- I'm still in the window.

COOPER: OK.

BRADY: I'm still in the window. So when he gets out of the car, I see the first shot, as Mr. Brown like I say he directly in the middle of the street running with his back turn, running away and he's probably was about 20 feet down and his other fiend, he's around the car, the truck side of it. So I see him, you know, looking up at the (inaudible) just to see where he's at but when he gets out of the car, he (inaudible) like one or two shots but at that time, he has already passed his own police vehicle and Mr. Brown's friend where he run into, as he was in his gun, shooting range, you know, position, he walked pass the vehicle to where his friend ran to.

So I think that the officer knew where his friend is but I'm saying that he's showing me that he wasn't shooting at this friend.

COOPER: Did you see? You said there were one or two shots, you think. BRADY: Yes. The very first one, the first person when he gives out.

COOPER: Did you see if Mike Brown was hit by any of those shots?

BRADY: No, I don't think he -- maybe it was at the time because like I said he was 20, 25 feet down. So obviously he was still running.

COOPER: Right. Because we don't know -- the autopsy said that there were at least six shots that hit Mike Brown but we don't know how many shots may have been fired if there were other shots that were fired, if other bullet casings have been collect. We don't know.

BRADY: Right.

COOPER: So you said, you heard one or two.

BRADY: Yeah. I definitely saying one or two but like I say he still have his back turned and I notice that he passed his friend up, so where his friend ran too. So that's when I decide I'm going to run outside with my phone and see what I could get. So I run as fast, so quick. About the time I get outside, he's already turned around, facing the officer. He's bolder, he had his arms like under his stomach and he was like half way down like he was going down and officer lets out by three or four shots at him.

So like I said, just like the body, I took a few pictures and a video about how his body is on the ground just like with his arms tacked in. That's how he got shot or whatever but like I said, before he went down he was already like this and he took like one or two step going towards the officer and he, like I said like about three or four more shots at him.

COOPER: You're saying it's your impression that he was essentially falling down onto the ground or going down onto the ground?

BRADY: Yeah.

COOPER: Because there is an account by a friend of the -- allegedly a friend of the officer, said that the officer is claiming any sources of the investigation back this up is where the officer's claim is that Mike Brown was running toward the officer. Did you see him running toward the officer in any way?

BRADY: No, no. Not after when he was running away. No. Not at all. Like I say by the time I come outside, I'm taking that he's now hit, after I've seen the officer shooting in him while he was running away. So I'm thinking that he is hit because now, he's turned to round now like this, like he was going down. He didn't even look like he was giving up. It just look like, you know, I'm hit, you know, I was going to down now. That's what it look liked.

COOPER: That was your impression.

BRADY: Yeah, yeah.

COOPER: So from what you saw, there weren't hands up or anything the hand ...

BRADY: Yeah. I really (inaudible) -- I didn't see no hands up, I probably just missed it from going out from my bedroom, going outside.

COOPER: Right. There was a gap in what you saw because you are moving ...

BRADY: Yeah. And then on top of that and there was also a gap from the officer pausing as he was shooting. Because like I say I'm there in the window and he shoots a couple of times and by the time I gets outside he's shooting again. So I really didn't hear a shot between a running, he's probably dead, you know, maybe ...

COOPER: And you don't know that (inaudible)...

BRADY: Yeah.

COOPER: This entire thing about how quickly he did -- from the time you first heard what sound and like it's tussle and started seeing tussle to the time Mike Brown was down in the ground. How long do you think?

BRADY: It was -- how shall I say it. I was definitely say -- if I'm not mistaken not even a minute.

COOPER: It all was quick.

BRADY: Yeah, it was just quick, definitely quick, probably within 30 seconds, or 40 seconds maybe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Earwitness: Tommy Chatman-Bey

Days before the release of the audio earlier this week, Tommy Chatman-Bey, who lives in the Canefield Green Apartment complex near where Brown was killed, told msnbc that he was outside at the time of the shooting and was an ear-witness.

“I was right out there when I heard it,” Chatman-Bey said. “I heard Boom, Boom, Boom, pause, Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom and then some more.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael-Ridgway (talk • contribs) 01:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

St. Louis Post Dispatch | Thomas Jackson on Darren Wilson's knowledge or lack thereof of robbery and suspect details

Ferguson officer realized during encounter that Michael Brown might be suspect in robbery, chief says

The officer who shot Ferguson teen Michael Brown stopped Brown and another teen because they were walking in the street, not because of a robbery a few minutes earlier, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said Friday afternoon.

Jackson said the officer was aware cigars had been taken in the robbery of a store nearby, but did not know when he encountered Brown and Dorian Johnson that they might be suspects.

He stopped them because they were walking in the street, Jackson said.

But Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown's hand and realized he might be the robber.

Jackson also addressed concerns about his release of information about the robbery at the same time he released the name of the officer at a press conference Friday morning.

Jackson said he released the security video from the liquor store because news organizations had been requesting it under the Freedom of Information Act.

Asked by reporters why he released the tape, he said, "Because I had to. Too many people put in (freedom of information) requests for it."

Told of the family's angry reaction to the release, he said, "First, my heart goes out to the family. I can't imagine what they are going through. We have given you everything that we have now… There is nothing else we have got."

Jackson said Wilson, 28, worked as a police officer in neighboring Jennings for two years before joining Ferguson about four years ago. He described Wilson as “a gentle, quiet man” and “a distinguished officer.”

Jennings closed its police department in late 2011 in the wake of a federal probe into the theft of grant money, and turned public safety over to St. Louis County Police.

For Wilson, Jackson said, the shooting "is absolutely devastating. He never intended for any of this to happen."

Michael-Ridgway (talk) 08:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

CNN August 16 on the question of what Wilson knew of the robbery when he approached Brown and Johnson

I have Ana Cabrera here with me. You have been in Ferguson all week. People are asking is it possible the officer thought Brown knew about that armed robbery -- not armed robbery, alleged robbery.
A lot of focus on this here. Why did this officer feel it was necessary to draw his weapon and shoot and eventually kill Michael Brown? That is the focus for most people here.
ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is the big question people want to have answered. We don't have the exact answer in that case. We really don't know a lot about that officer's story because police just have not released those details of the investigation. They don't want to compromise that case.
But to answer our viewer's question there. You know, what we have been told by Police Chief Tom Jackson yesterday was that the officer who responded and eventually took Michael Brown's life, did not know at that time, he had the initial contact with Michael Brown and his friend, Dorian Johnson, who were walking up in the middle of the street.
He did not know at that time that they were indeed suspects in a strong armed robbery. It got a little bit muddy yesterday. There were several stories about this issue. The robbery and the shooting and potential connection and how they were related that was not clear.
Details were released throughout the day in which initially we were under the understanding that the officer had heard the dispatcher say that this strong armed robbery had happened and that these suspects in that case were walking toward the Quick Trip.
It is on the lookout for the suspects. Then he recanted saying he did not know Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson were walking down the street. Later, he came back out and said, well, he had heard something about a robbery of cigars and when he made the contact with them, it was because they were walking in the street.
He happened to notice cigars in one of their hands. He made a quick connection about it. It is hard to know if they are indeed connected with the officer's response.
BLACKWELL: What is frustrating for a lot of people is this is coming out in drips and drabs, and there is very little consistency for that element of what's happening here.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/16/ndaysat.04.html

Michael-Ridgway (talk) 08:26, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

August 11: MSNBC: Chris Hayes on unconfirmed allegations that Michael had been "busted for shoplifiting"

Christ Hayes, verbatim:

"There has also been a whole lot of different information released out in the wake of the death of Michael Brown.
First, accusations that he had been busted for shoplifting..
So far, there has been no corroboration of that."

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri, video at the bottom of the page at about 10:26.

Michael-Ridgway (talk) 18:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]