Talk:Principality of Lüneburg

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Title move to Principality of Lüneburg

Unless there a major objections I propose to move this to Principality of Lüneburg, in line with the convention outlined at the Holy Roman Empire task force page. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 21:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lüneburg-Celle → Principality of Lüneburg — Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 17:26, 4 June 2010 (UTC) The equivalent de.wiki title for this article is Fürstentum Lüneburg which means Principality of Lüneburg. Although it states it was later called Celle (not Lüneburg-Celle), this seems to have been a secondary title and not frequently used. I can find no instances of Lüneburg-Celle being used in English or German literature. On the other hand, Principality of Lüneburg is used frequently and the title of Prince of Lüneburg was granted to at least 29 nobles. Bermicourt (talk) 20:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't the English name, Lunenburg, be used? — AjaxSmack 01:08, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The English authorities I have all spell it Lüneburg and this also appears to be the Wiki convention. The authoritative sources for Lüneburg include Princes and territories in Medieval Germany by Arnold (2003); Germany in the High Middle Ages (c.1050-1200) by Fuhrmann (1986); Early Modern Germany 1477-1806 by Hughes (1992) and even Germany. A regional and economic geography. by Dickinson (1961). If you have strong evidence to the contrary, feel free to put it forward. --Bermicourt (talk) 05:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Let's start with the Britannica and the Cambridge Modern History. We should use Lüneburg to avoid archaism; but also Celle, to avoid confusion between this article and the Ducky of Brunswick-Lüneburg. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:11, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly Support. The article is about the state that emerged when the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg was divided in 1269 until it joined the Electorate of Brunswick-Lüneburg in 1705. This state is overwhelmingly referred to in the literature and online as Fürstentum Lüneburg in German or Principality of Lüneburg in English.

By contrast Lüneburg-Celle is as an occasional shorthand for the title of its rulers, who were both "Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg" and "Prince of Lüneburg". Rather than use both they were sometimes referred to as the "Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg-Celle", Celle being the ducal seat after 1378. Only rarely does an author use Lüneburg-Celle to refer to the state itself - the one reference I came across also called it the Principality of Lüneburg in the same paragraph.

@Septentrionalis. The 2 links are WP:UNRELIABLE as they give no clue as to the use of Lüneburg-Celle. The one to the 1910 Encyclopædia Britannica gives "Your search - "Lüneburg-Celle" - did not match any documents"; the one to Cambridge Modern History comes up with "1 page matching "Lüneburg-Celle" in this book" but the context is not shown. So these links do not support an oppose; even if they did they are way outnumbered by references to the proposed title.

@Septentrionalis. Confusion between Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg with Principality of Lüneburg is no more likely than with the existing article on Duchy of Brunswick and far less than many series of articles on Wikipedia e.g. those on Hanover or Prussia.

Whilst Google must be treated with caution it is of note that Principality of Lüneburg-Celle came up with only 7 hits: 4 are Wiki-based, 1 gives no context, the remaining 2 - Leibnitiana encyclopaedia and a numismatic site also refers to the Principality of Lüneburg e.g. at [1], Francis, Henry of Dannenberg and Ernest the Confessor. None is reliable.

On the other hand there are 20,300 hits for Principality of Lüneburg. A few examples:

Lower Saxony State Archives (Germany) at www.balticconnections.net states "Relations of the principality of Lüneburg to Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Prussia..."
The state's museum is called the Museum of the Principality of Lüneburg. See Lüneburg's own home site at Attractions - Lüneburg as well as others including World Museum
Medieval Townscapes - Celle, Germany refers to "Duke Otto II the Strict ... who ruled the Principality of Lüneburg from 1277 to 1330, granted Celle its town privileges."
The ScienceStage website refers to "The Lüneburg War of Succession was a conflict that broke out in 1370 ... over the line of succession to the Principality of Lüneburg."
Celle Castle at Guide to the Castles of Europe states The Principality of Lüneburg was subsequently passed ... to the Kingdom of Hanover.
Succession laws in the House of Welf at www.heraldica.org states "At Friedrich's death in 1648 the principality of Lüneburg passed to the issue of Georg zu Calenberg."
German States to 1918 F-M lists the "Principality of Lüneburg (Fürstentum Lüneburg).", created in 1269 and incorporated into the Electorate of Hanover in 1705.
Several at Leibnitiana encyclopaedia - see above.

In summary, when we are referring to the state, the term Principality of Lüneburg stands head and shoulders above any other usage and entirely reflects German usage. Lüneburg-Celle is an occasional shorthand for the title, but rarely used for the state. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support move The correct official title it would seem is Principality of Lüneburg. Given that the Lower Saxony State Archives and the state museum refer to it as this this should be moved asap. Given that this is also referred to in the article I think this should be moved as requested. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 10:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.