Talk:List of X-Men members/Archive 3

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Format notes

Here are a few more changes that would make this more consistent with other articles:

• Use <ref/> tags instead of repeating references in the text. Readers can still find the referenced issue but the copy gets a lot shorter. I did this with the Handbook references, but there are many others.
• Consider adding "Powers" and "Status" columns to the tables that list mutants. Status would hold "Deceased", "Inactive", "Ghost", "Active in ...", "Last seen in...", etc., with an appropriate ref.
• There's a lot of material duplicated from the character tables to the team tables.

Cheers Lfstevens (talk) 01:24, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Changes per Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z Hardcover, Vol. 13

Well, I just posted my initial changes to this page based on this week's Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z hardcover, vol. 13. So far I've just made a bunch of minor changes because I wanted to discuss the major ones here. According to this handbook (which is considered canon by Marvel), the following changes are going to need to be made:

Xavier's "Secret Team" from X-Men: Deadly Genesis are considered regular/main X-Men, not a separate temporary sub-groups like the Muir Island X-Men, Phalanx Invasion X-Men, etc., and they're included in the handbook's chronological list before the Giant-Size X-Men #1 "All-New, All-Different" team (though I guess their exact chronological placement in our list is debatable based on Wiki rules/norms). (Moved to the main list, per the handbook and recent discussion here on the talk page.)

M and Caliban are STILL not included in the main X-Men list, which means they should probably be removed from our main X-Men list. (M had already been removed by someone else, but as a compromise with the people who've kept adding her back in the past, I went ahead and added her to the "Other status" section. I also removed Caliban from the main list.)

As I've always thought, Mystique, Lady Mastermind, and Sabretooth are included in the main list, not the infiltrators list--they didn't infiltrate the team while in disguise as someone else like the Phoenix Force, Dark Beast, and the Skrull Wolverine imposter did, but were actual members of the team (albeit with limited or no loyalty, but loyalty isn't the issue here). (Done.)

The "Manifest Destiny" and onward status quo is greatly clarified, showing the following:

Adult/established Marvel characters who join the X-Men become full X-Men if they actively participate in X-Men missions, including all of the "New Mutants" squad, Aurora, Doctor Nemesis, Madison Jeffries, Cloak & Dagger, Domino, Danger, Boom-Boom, and Ariel (and, presumably, Fantomex and E.V.A., since the handbook entry isn't completely up-to-date with current events). (Done.)

Current students (New X-Men, Young X-Men, Trance, etc.) have graduated to X-Men status and are included in a current X-Men sub-group called "X-Men-in-Training." (Done.)

Members of the X-Force squad are also considered X-Men, but if they're students or haven't participated in missions with the main X-Men (Elixir, Vanisher, Wolfsbane), they're not included in the main list, just the "X-Force (X-Men Strike Team)" sub-group. (Done.)

Similarly, X-Club members are also X-Men, but if they haven't participated in field missions with the main X-Men (Kavito Rao, Yuriko Takiguchi), they're only included in the sub-group "X-Club/Science Team." (Done.)

So I'm planning to make these changes within the next few days, but I wanted to post them here to open things up to discussion. And there are also a few "gray areas" I'd like to mention/discuss, since a few characters have been left off of the list (possibly forgotten), etc.:

Wolf Cub has been identified as an X-Men member in a previous handbook volume, but he was left off of the list in this volume, probably mistakenly due to his death before the Young X-Men squad actually made it to San Francisco. I plan to list him as an inactive member of the X-Men-in-Training squad. Similarly, Indra has been left off (possibly due to his only appearing in X-Men Legacy?), but I plan to include him. (Added Wolf Cub to the X-Men-in-Training list, per two other handbook entries; left Indra in the "Manifest Destiny" section until his status is clarified, hopefully in his upcoming X-Men Legacy arc.)

I'm also considering keeping a few characters in the "Manifest Destiny Recruits" section (or moving them to the "Other Status" section?) until their classification has been clarified: Frenzy and Nekra seem to fit the standards to be considered X-Men but aren't on the list. Similarly, Diamond Lil and Meld aren't on the list, possibly because their activity and deaths happened at the threshold of the events covered in the volume (which went to press a month ago and may not have wanted to include spoilers/reveal info that might not be known yet depending on changes in the pace and flow of storylines). Similarly, should Fantomex, E.V.A., and future recruits be kept in the "Manifest Destiny Recruits" or "Other Status" section until they're confirmed? (Since others have already changed the name of this to "Manifest Destiny Recruits and Allies," I've left the section up; however, I removed all characters who are covered elsewhere, etc.; since Meld was never even seen defending Utopia, just being injured by Senyaka, I removed him altogether.)

Deadpool isn't on the list, but he was obviously at least a probationary member (like Mystique was before him). Maybe the best place for him is just the "Other Status" section, with the explanation that he was a probationary member? The OHotMU list also doensn't include honorary members like Candy Southern (was she ACTUALLY called an "honorary member"?), Katie Power, Gateway, Fiz, etc. (and should I even open the can of worms of in-continuity X-Men: First Class honorary members Dragon Man, X-50, and Medusa?), so Deadpool might be seen as having the same type of status. (Since Deadpool is already in the "Other status" section, I removed him from this section.)

I'm sure I've missed some things, and "Second Coming" will doubtlessly change some characters' status, but I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks before I make these changes! (And sorry if there are any typos above, but I don't have any more time to spend on this now!) DeadpoolRP (talk) 20:28, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so I've (obviously) started this stuff by creating the X-Men-in-Training and X-Force (X-Men Strike Team) squads. Next up I'll be adding characters to the main X-Men list (the New Mutants, Domino, Danger, Boom-Boom, Ariel, etc.), but I'm still open to thoughts, including regarding Fantomex. A few new questions, though:

1.) Since the New X-Men and Young X-Men squads have been absorbed into the overarching X-Men-in-Training squad, what should we do about their sections? The New Mutants, Hellions, Paragons, etc., are obviously different, but do we still need separate sections for the more recent two? (I'm still unsure about leaving or removing the "New X-Men" and "Young X-Men" section. Thoughts?)

2.) Since the X-Force and New Mutants are officially X-Men squads, do we need to have the current lineups attached to the end of the later New Mutants and X-Force sections? On this one I definitely say no. (Deleted 'em, though someone else bolded current New Mutants in the "New Mutants"--this seems fine to me as a COMPROMISE, but not as a replacement for having them in the main X-Men list, because they ARE official X-Men members.) DeadpoolRP (talk) 10:54, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Alright, you asked for thoughts, so I'm giving them to you, and they will be long...

Honestly, I don't like alot of the changes you're making. I like some, but I dislike just as many, if not more. *Shrug*

IMO, This list isn't the official handbook to the marvel universe, nor does it have to adhere to it so strictly. I liked the way the list was set up much better before you started changing it, for the most part (but again, not completely)...

See... it gets hard...

I like that characters like X-Force, The New Mutants & The Young X-Men are on there... characters who I feel have been around a while, gone on missions, adhered to "Xavier's Dream" as it were. Those characters, I feel, have "earned" a place on the list... if you get my drift. I support including them. I have no problem believing that these characters would be considered "X-Men" by their peers.

I hate however, including people like Lady Mastermind & Mystique, who were never sincerely members, just spies, Sabretooth, who was never even willingly a member, Petra & Sway, who were just BS retconned into being members before characters we've been reading for 40+ years now, and died just as quickly, The Science Squad, a bunch of lab-coats who don't really go on missions, and are there more for research opportunities than to be X-Men, and who just kind-of hang out around the real members, and the 100 mutants who came from fleeting stories like X-Corp, Manifest Destiny & Exodus, that introduce characters like Stringfellow, Darkstar, Fantomex & Ariel to the team fleetingly, and give people the impression that they're full-fledged X-Men, even though they barely assist the team for one mission and then disapear... it's asinine.

I mean, ideally, I'd like for this list to be approached with a certain element of common sense. Ya'know? When we decide who or who doesn't belong there... and approached with a bit less, "This person must or must not be included because this book says they are or aren't an X-Man." Comic books are not infallible. They frequently contradict themselves... and will probably continue to do so for decades to come.

I hate that the "rules" the handbook places on things exclude a character like X-Man or Domino from the main list, but include people like Ariel or Sabretooth. I'd consider X-Man an X-Man long before I'd consider Ariel one.

Like I said, I wish we could just approach the list with a little more common sense... WE read these stories. WE see inside ALL the characters heads. WE know their motivations. WE see their intent. Deep down WE all know which ones are or aren't X-Men... The way I approach the question of "Who is an X-Man" is usually this: Let's say there's a pretty tribute wall in the X-Mansion, where we hang up pictures of all the X-Men to look fondly upon and reflect over the years. Now my question is, "If I were the headmaster at the Xavier Institute, would I hang a picture of this mutant on that wall?" The answer for a guy like Sabretooth: No! Anole? Yes. Lady Mastermind? No. X-Man? Yes. Vulcan? No. Karma? Yes. Fantomex? No. The Cuckoos? Yes.

Was Sabreooth an X-Man in one writers head? Yeah, probably. Was Sabretooth an X-Man according to the paperwork in Marvel's records. Yeah probably. Was Sabretooth ever an X-Man in SPIRIT... No. Not at all. We can all see plain as day that Sabretooth was never onboard with the team.

Every writer that comes into these books these days seems to apply a blanket recruitment to every stupid mutant that strolls in and out of his book. There are like, about 200 lame mutants that can lay claim to the name "X-Men" these days, and I hate that we have to sit here and argue about who is or isn't actually a member, and wait until Marvel tells us what to do, instead of use common sense.

Now, all that said, do I have answers for you? No.

It's obviously a very debatable point of discussion, who should or shouldn't be on the list. Honestly, I think it's one we won't ever resolve. So if you wanna make all these changes, go ahead, I'm not gonna stop you, I don't have the energy for major edits right now... but I promise you, eventually someone will have the energy, and someone will edit them back into something you don't like down the line. Hell, there's a good chance I'll be that someone down the road, once I get a bit more freetime. I know I've moved the Deadly Genesis team off the list at least 3 times now, and will continue to do so, since as I've made quite clear, I don't think they belong there. ;)

I just ask that when someone DOES change something, and they will, I ask that when someone changes something, don't just undo their changes and say, "I'm undoing it, because this is what the handbook says". Really. Stop. Read over the change. Ask yourself if it makes sense. And if it does, just roll with it. If the change makes sense, it makes another user happy, and it doesn't violate the rules set forth by Wikipedia, does it really NEED to adhere to the Marvel Handbook? REALLY!? Why start an edit war?

Use common sense. :P Gillbob316 (talk) 06:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I just looked over the main page again, and I think I was being a little too hasty saying I didn't like alot of what you were doing. Forgive me. That's not true. I do like the way alot of the page is currently set up. I like that there's a clear divide between fleeting teams and "Main" teams (IE. The New Mutants are on the main list, but the Deadly Genesis & Science Squad Aren't), but I also like that teams like X-Force & The New Mutants are off the splinter list, since they are quite clearly, under Cyclops' command.

The only real gripes I have are... (going back to my earlier 'common sense' rant, lol)

Take Ariel & Danger off the main list. I don't feel they belong there, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. (Though I don't quite know where to put them otherwise. Possibly in Utopia recruits?) [Possibly Aurora also, though I'm undecided on her, since she came in during Secret Invasion, before Nation X].

I still don't like Lady Mastermind, Mystique & Sabretooth on the main list, and would support moving them back to imposters/infiltrators/involuntary. I'm not making the change myself, in the spirit of good will. But my arguements for why I don't think they should be there are in other areas of this discussion page. Regardless of where Marvel places them in the handbook, none of them were ever really part of the team. And while they may not have been imposters, they WERE undeniably infiltrators. It's not like I'm saying "ban all villains from the main list". I have no problem with Magneto, Juggernaut or Emma for instance, since they were all villains making a sincere effort to reform. Even Juggernaut who's since gone back to villainy, I have no prob keeping there. But those three were't doing that. Sabretooth made that clear up front. Mystique & Mastermind kept their status as spies under their hats. But none of them were ever X-Men in spirit. Sabretooth was on a Leash, Mastermind and Mystique were just there to secretly sew chaos. I remember a time when Dark Beast & The Phoenix Force were both listed on the main list. (Seriously!) Now they're not. Things change. Do we REALLY think Cyclops would allow those three to call themselves X-Men? Honestly? Or is it more likely that if they did, he'd see it as an insult to the name? I think the answer is fairly clear to all of us. To that end, I vote move them back off the list, to where they were before. (I can't promise I won't move them myself, truthfully, somewhere down the road. But for now, I'm leaving them. Since you're obviously doing your best to restructure, I'll stay out of your way until you get things handled. I'd rather remain on standby in good faith, and not step on your toes and start an edit war.)

Finally, I'd like to once again firmly state I don't think the Deadly Genesis team should be on the main list. Regardless of where the handbook places them, I think their current place in substitute teams is more logical for this article. They more or less were just a substitute team, frankly. Putting them on the main list, implying they're full members who predate characters like Colossus & Storm, is just confusing to the casual visitor. I think it's much more logical the way it's setup now, where they're listed seperately, with the acception of Darwin, who I think fits perfectly fine in the 2000s recruits. Someone mentioned earlier, that wikipedia is a place for listing hard facts. Well the hard facts say they're a temporary team, who never starred in a main X-Men title, who were created and disbanded all within the scope of a 5 issue limited series in 1996. Lets not pretend that these characters have more history to them than mutants who have been around 40 years. Gillbob316 (talk) 07:37, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Gillbob316: Thanks for all of your feedback, comments, compliments, and constructive criticism--I'm definitely considering everything you said before making changes, and I'll try to address all of the main points that have been discussed. Between you, me, and Tomahawk1221 (the people who've posted their thoughts so far on these issues), here's where we seem to stand:

Two people are FOR moving the current X-Force squad up into the X-Men section (per the handbook) and one is AGAINST it.

Two people are FOR moving the Deadly Genesis team onto the main list (per the handbook) and one is AGAINST it.

Two people are FOR moving Mystique, Lady Mastermind, and Sabretooth onto the main list (per the handbook) and one is AGAINST it.

Two people are FOR moving the New Mutants squad onto the main list (per the handbook) and one didn't say either way.

So to me, at least, the problem we have here is apparent and logical: While everyone would like to think that their opinion is common sense and logical, there are always going to be disagreements in situations like these, so we really can't just decide to use common sense. Which is why I feel that, in situations like these, we really do just need to defer to the official decision from Marvel--they own the characters and they decide who's a member of what group. If they change their minds down the road, then by all means, make the changes then. But we're already going to have enough trouble interpreting the current "everyone's an X-Man" status quo as future issues come out--we might as well use the resource Marvel has given us as far as membership in already-published issues goes. On to the major points from everyone's comments:

1.) I'm not strongly against someone adding the current X-Force (and the New Mutants, if people really want to) back into the splinter groups section as well, but I'm not going to do it. The complaint was made that their being on the list twice was redundant, and Marvel (and the X-Men writers for months now) has clearly established that they need to be included as X-Men: X-Force as an X-Men sub-group and the New Mutants as main X-Men. So, I won't stop anyone from putting them on the list twice, but I oppose removing them from the X-Men section.

2.) Since you mentioned her, Gillbob316, you'll be happy to know that Domino (per the handbook) is one of the four recent main X-Men recruits that I still have to add to the list (even if you might not be happy about some of the others). Also, you'll be happy to know that X-Man is slated to become a full-fledged team member after Utopia! :)

3.) I'm not exactly sure where talk of X-Men membership doubling in the last two years is coming from, and I don't understand where the idea of a large membership destroying the franchise is coming from. The Avengers and Justice League have had tons more members (and honorary members, and reserve members, and international members, etc.) than the X-Men, and they both seem to be doing fine. I thought Tomahawk1221 would be happy to hear that X-Force and X-Club members who haven't been in battle alongside the main X-Men--as well as all of the X-Men-in-Training members--are only considered X-Men sub-group members. And he probably is, but he's still throwing that "doubled membership" statement around, which is false anyway you look at it: If you just count main X-Men members, in the last two years membership has increased from 60 to 78, which is a 30 percent increase. The only way it even comes close to a 50 percent increase is if you include all of the sub-team members (and I'll even count the New X-Men members as new here, even though they were members more than two years ago), and even in that case, membership has only increased from 86 to 125, a 45 percent increase.

4.) To further confuse things, Tomahawk1221 doesn't want all of these mutants considered full X-Men, but Gillbob316 wants sub-team members like Anole, the Cuckoos, and X-Man (who needs a new codename and will be official soon) considered full X-Men. See how muddy this gets when we try to figure this out amongst ourselves?

5.) I'm not sure why Ariel is getting so much hate here--elsewhere online she's getting tons of love (including from Mike Carey, who obviously considers her an X-Men member since he made her one), and her death as a member of the alpha X-Men squad in Second Coming seems to clearly cement her status as an (albeit now former) official X-Men member (in addition to her clear inclusion in the handbook). Just out of curiosity--why would you consider X-Man an X-Men member over Ariel, Gillbob316? From what I can remember, X-Man was in the Danger Room when Professor X disbanded the X-Men, he was involved with one mission--the Mannite Rescue team (which by definition was a temporary substitute team)--and that was it, while Ariel was involved with the Proposition X Riots/Utopia, Emplate's attack, and Second Coming.

6.) Danger is similarly being established as a rather central X-character. In addition to being called a member in the handbook, she's been appearing in all four main X-books (Legacy, Uncanny, X-Force, and New Mutants), working with the X-Club, serving as the warden of the X-Brig, doing search and rescue during the Proposition X Riots, defending Utopia from Emplate, etc. They've even gone so far as to establish how she (like Omega Sentinel before her) is a mutant robot. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want her considered an X-Man, especially since Marvel says she is one.

7.) As far as my "Manifest Destiny Recruits" section goes, that's not an official X-Men sub-team--that's a compromise section I created as a placeholder for X-Men members whose official status was in questions until this handbook came out. So I've been slowly (as I have time) moving characters out of that section and into the appropriate sections. Eventually, that section will be gone.

8.) Regarding the X-Club--you're right, some of them (Dr. Rao and Dr. Takiguchi) do mostly just work in a lab and thus aren't on the main X-Men list. I would hope that since they're just on a sub-group list, they really wouldn't bother anyone. However, Dr. Nemesis and Madison Jeffries have been all over the place in the X-Men books, getting more panel time and participating in more battles lately than several X-Men who've been around longer, including Husk, Hepzibah, and even Gambit and Iceman--in my opinion, I'd say they've earned their current spots on the X-Men.

9.) I'm not sure why Stringfellow was brought up, but I always wonder why people get so worked up over Darkstar. Marvel decided that X-Corporation members are separate from the X-Men, so that's fine, but why do people think it's so weird she became associated with the X-teams? She's a mutant (and that's usually all it takes), and she's also been involved in several X-Men storylines over the years, going at least as far back as the X-Men vs. the Avengers miniseries, as well as Fabian Nicieza's "Soul Skinner" storyline early in adjectiveless X-Men. But that's neither here nor there.

10.) Regarding Fantomex's membership: I don't know about you, but I'm sure Barnell Bohusk was quite happy to consider Fantomex an X-Man when he and Cyclops showed up to save the day during "Planet X" (even if that was only a substitute team). :) However, it seems clear to me that Marvel intends for him to be a team member now, given the fact that EVERYONE ELSE on the cover to Uncanny X-Men #522 was a member of the team. I'll wait to add him, though, until his official status is clarified.

11.) As far as the Deadly Genesis team goes, Marvel doesn't consider them a substitute team, and I can see why--just like the "All-New, All-Different" team, they were THE X-Men when they went on their mission. They weren't just a temporary, ad hoc team like the Muir Island, Phalanx Invasion, Mannite Rescue, Genoshan Assault, or Street Team lineups were. I don't think that any of those teams were under any illusion that, "Oh, we're the real X-Men, and we'll totally continue to be after we save the day in this emergency situation!" They were temporary teams, and they went in knowing that. However, the only reason the Deadly Genesis team was temporary is because they all either died or were presumed dead. And they were all on the cover of X-Men (vol. 2) #200 cover, which only included full X-Men, not substitute teams. Also:

If the retcon aspect of the lineup is what bothers you, then I think you've picked the wrong hobby! :P (I know, I know--I'm mostly kidding). I don't see anyone complaining about Astra and Blindspot's inclusion on the List of Brotherhood of Mutants members page--it clearly states that they're characters who were retconned in, and we would do the same for the Deadly Genesis team.

If you're really worried that their presences near the top of the list would be confusing to casual readers (despite clear retcon labels and the fact that this confusion doesn't seem to happen on the Brotherhood page) and would somehow make people think they've been around longer than 40-year-old characters, I'd consider adding them into the main list in REALTIME chronological order--in the 2000s recruits section before Warpath (since they first appeared in 2006, before James joined the team). Any thoughts on that? I think it'd make less sense than putting them near the top, but it would be a compromise I'd be willing to consider to keep them on the main list (per the handbook) but not confusingly near the top (per your argument).

Finally, I'm not positive that this is the case with anybody commenting on here, but it sometimes at least seems that way: Just because you don't like a character or storyline or retcon or writer, that's not a valid reason to remove characters from the list--it seems to me that if Marvel says someone's an X-Man, they're an X-Man, even if you don't like Ariel, or Danger, or Vulcan, etc. Plus, this can backfire--if you set that precedent, next thing you know, someone could be removing X-Man from the list six months from now (because heaven knows lots of people don't like him).

12.) And as far as Mystique, Lady Mastermind, and Sabretooth go, I understand what you're saying--they were never believers in the dream. But that's pretty vague, I'm sorry to say: Did Stacy X REALLY believe in the dream, or was she just chasing Angel and looking for a good time? Did Mimic? Or Lockheed (while we're on the subject of infiltrators, thought I don't personally believe his infiltration went back that far)? Or Bishop or the Xorns, for that matter, with all of the recent retcons of their motivations and backstories? It becomes a slippery slope, and who gets to make these calls? I say let Marvel! And if years from now they add these characters to the infiltrators list, I'll be happy to move them there on this page as well. I'll be the first one to do it! But for now, like you mentioned (quoting someone else), Wikipedia is a place for listing hard facts, and the hard fact is that Marvel, the creators, owners, and people with the final say about these characters, says they're full X-Men. And this list should be based on hard facts, so this isn't a list of who we think had the true spirit of the X-Men, who we think Cyclops would let call themselves X-Men, or whose picture we think he would hang in the hallways of Utopia (no offense). DeadpoolRP (talk) 03:50, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

A lot of changes were recently made by an unnamed contributor (187.106.38.146), so to try to avoid hard feelings, I just wanted to outline here what I changed back, what I left, and what I compromised on. These comments are organized based on where the change was made in the page, from top to bottom:

1.) It has been established in both the comics and Marvel's handbooks that the members of the squad popularly called the "New Mutants" are all official X-Men members. They're not just a splinter team (or even just an X-Men sub-group like X-Force, the X-Club, and the X-Men-in-Training)--they're full X-Men and shouldn't be removed from the main list of X-Men members.

2.) I personally agree with removing M from the main X-Men list, but (as mentioned above) I went ahead and added her to the "Other status" section as a compromise with the people who've been adding her back to the main list in the past. Hopefully this will stop the constant edit war over the subject.

3.) Per the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z, vol. 13 hardcover, Warpath and Hepzibah are still active X-Men members. At the end of the "X-Necrosha" storyline, Wolverine says that Warpath, Wolfsbane, Elixir, and X-23 are out as X-FORCE MEMBERS, but this doesn't necessarily mean they're no longer X-Men, as can be seen by the fact that X-23 actually JOINED the main X-Men team in her next appearance (X-Men: Second Coming #1 [2010]). Current X-Men writers (Mike Carey, at the very least) have said that just because someone hasn't shown up during the "Second Coming" storyline doesn't mean they're not still X-Men--there are battles going on on many different fronts. So until we get confirmation otherwise, I propose that we keep both of these characters listed as active X-Men (Warpath, though no longer an X-Force member, and Hepzibah, who got away from S.W.O.R.D. at the end of that series).

4.) Domino, Dr. Nemesis, Madison Jeffries, and Aurora have all been confirmed as members of the main X-Men team (in the handbook, and they've all fought on-panel as active team members), so please don't remove them.

5.) Ink has been confirmed as appearing during the "Utopia" storyline (he appeared on-panel, and his appearance was confirmed in Marvel's Official Index to the Marvel Universe series), so I'm not sure why people keep saying he's still in a coma and not confirmed as being on Utopia. He's out of the coma and an active X-Men-in-Training member.

6.) I didn't bother adding the phrase "and all are considered X-Men" back to the description of the "Manifest Destiny Recruits" section due to the fact that it's since been changed to the "Manifest Destiny Recruits and Allies" section, but that IS a direct quote from the Official Index to the Marvel Universe.

7.) As I've already mentioned, I'm fine with putting current "New Mutants squad" members in bold in the "X-Men splinter teams: New Mutants" section, but that doesn't replace including them in the main X-Men list.

8.) And finally, to clarify a recent revert I did, Marvel has said repeatedly that Mystique's real name is unrevealed and that the name Raven Darkhölme is only an alias.

I think that covers everything. I'd be happy to hear others' thoughts on these topics! DeadpoolRP (talk) 21:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Kavita Rao went on a mission with the X-Club to investigate the offshore platform. Is that mission valid for membership? Ultrabasurero (talk) 16:32, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

If you mean membership in the main X-Men, I would guess probably not. I'd think it'd be consider an X-Club mission (like the mission to the past), not a regular X-Men mission. DeadpoolRP (talk) 18:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay, here goes:

Per the handbook, "The New Mutants Graduate, Muir Island, Phalanx Invasion, Mannite Rescue, Genoshan Assault and Street Team rosters were all temporary sub-groups that no longer exist; however, the X-Men-in-Training, X-Force and X-Club teams affiliated with the X-Men all currently remain active. While some members of these sub-groups have also served with the core X-Men, others have not."

So the X-Force (X-Men Strike Team) squad are all X-Men sub-group members, but as it says, only some of them are ALSO members of the core X-Men team--those who have served with the main team. People have no problem agreeing that Archangel, Warpath, and Wolverine are members of BOTH the X-Men and X-Force, so I'm not sure why people think it's so odd for Domino to be a member of both teams. X-Force is, by definition, a SECRET team that goes on covert missions. So when Domino began taking part in open, non-covert missions with the main X-Men, she became a core X-Men team member as well. Similarly, when X-23 became part of the non-covert X-Men alpha squad in X-Men: Second Coming #1, she became a core X-Men member. Vanisher, Wolfsbane, and Elixir never did, so they're only sub-group members.

The same goes for the X-Club: Everyone accepts that Angel, Beast, and Psylocke are/were members of both the X-Men and the X-Club, so why is it so hard to accept that Dr. Nemesis and Box are members of both as well? They have both taken part in X-Men field/defense missions on several occasions, whereas Dr. Rao and Dr. Takiguchi have only ever taken part in X-Club missions and scientific research, so they're only X-Club (sub-group) members.

I'm not sure why you say that "Consistency is just not there" regarding the handbook and try to back your claim up by citing the various Wikipedia editors who have removed X-Men characters from this list. If anything, the exact opposite is true: The handbook clearly sets out who is and isn't a member, while Wiki editors are anything BUT consistent. Each time someone has removed names from this list, the people they've removed have been DIFFERENT. It's been inconsistent. Every person seems to have their own opinion about who should or shouldn't be considered an X-Men member, who does or doesn't "deserve" to be a member, as if they can decide that on their own and make their opinions official. Heck, all of those people have removed characters who've clearly been called X-Men both in the comics and in the handbooks, so I'm not sure why you feel that their edits are consistent or prove anything other than how unreliable people's personal opinions about who are and aren't X-Men members are. (Plus, none of them could even been bothered to discuss their changes on the talk page--they just made absurd statements like "Ariel has never been an X-Man," "Magik has never been an X-Men," etc., as if their preferences are fact and both of these characters weren't identified as X-Men alpha squad members during "Second Coming," etc.)

We have a handbook. We have official word from Marvel about who the members of the X-Men are. Let's go with what the people who created, own, and have the final say about these characters say. Make sense? DeadpoolRP (talk) 09:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

And in case anyone needs any more evidence that the "New Mutants" squad members are all full X-Men (not a separate team) now, here's a quotation from page 11 of last week's New Mutants (vol. 3) #15 (September 2010). Cyclops (the current leader of all things X-Men) says to Cannonball (the leader of the "New Mutants" squad of X-Men): "Take your X-Men on a recreational leave. I want you gone by morning." This is just one of MANY examples throughout the series (as well as other X-books) showing that the New Mutants are all X-Men now . . . DeadpoolRP (talk) 02:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Further confirmation of the membership of various X-Men members (Magik, Domino, Jubilee, Hope Summers, Cannonball and the other New Mutants, etc.) can be found in the recent Origins of Marvel Comics: X-Men #1 (2010).

I’d particularly like to draw attention to what it says about Hope: “After proving herself in battle, Hope watched her surrogate father make the ultimate sacrifice, then took her place with the X-Men.” This quotation, along with her statement that “We’re the X-Men” when she introduced herself and the squad of X-Men she was with to Laurie (one of the “Five Lights”) in Uncanny X-Men #526 (2010), seems like sufficient evidence to include her in the list. However, if you need more, there’s also this quotation from “The Saga of Hope” in Generation Hope #1 (cover date January 2011):

My name’s Hope Summers. I’m a mutant—and now, I’m an X-Man. To say I’ve lived a strange life is an understatement. To make sense of it all, Cyclops—the X-Men’s leader, and I guess, kinda, my grandfather—told me to write it all down. Get my thoughts out in a journal. Says it’ll be therapeutic. Cathartic. It’ll help me adjust to life as an X-Man.

I’m also going to go ahead and add Fantomex and E.V.A. to the membership list. I feel that there’s been more than enough evidence of their membership over the last nine months, including the following (some significant, some minor):

1.) Fantomex has fulfilled all of the current requirements for X-Men membership, per Marvel’s handbooks and the explanation given in the X-Men section of the recent Official Index to Marvel Universe series, which stated in its thirteenth issue:

When the X-Men re-form following their dissolution in X[-Men] #207, ’08, their structure is much looser: although the “core group” of team members remain, others now routinely come and go on an as-needed basis: students, former allies and acquaintances, all offered sanctuary in San Francisco, briefly join or aid the team on specific missions--and all are considered “X-Men.”

He joined the X-Men for a mission (in New York, against Sublime’s associates), brought that squad back to Utopia, stayed on Utopia, and defended Utopia and San Francisco throughout the “Second Coming” storyline. Heck, he’s fought alongside the X-Men more than other current members, including Aurora, Boom-Boom, Danger, etc.

2.) In Uncanny X-Men #521, when Fantomex is transporting the X-Men squad he assisted back to Utopia, he telepathically talks to Cyclops via Emma Frost and includes himself with the group when he ends the conversation by saying “X-Men, out.”

3.) If you look at the (main) cover of Uncanny X-Men #522, every other character on the cover is an X-Men member (with Rockslide being an X-Men-In-Training member), so it seems odd to include Fantomex if he’s not a member.

4.) Even before Cyclops’s declaration during the “Second Coming” storyline that everyone on Utopia was a "combatant" and an "X-Man," Fantomex was already defending the island and San Francisco alongside the X-Men.

5.) Fantomex has also joined Wolverine’s new X-Force squad, but since that team’s a secret team (even from Cyclops!), Fantomex’s continuing exploits with the main X-Men obviously can’t be seen as X-Force missions. But he’s definitely continued to be involved with the team, including in the most recent issue of Uncanny X-Men, where he and E.V.A. helped Emma Frost and Kitty Pryde sneak Sebastian Shaw off of Utopia (and he continues to appear prominently on the covers of upcoming issues).

6.) He got his own story in the recent X-Men: To Serve and Protect #1 anthology, which ended with him telling the police that he was returning the diamond he and Batroc had fought over “in the name of the X-Men.”

All of these things point to his membership. So, I’ve presented my case here, and I’m adding Fantomex, E.V.A., and Hope to the main X-Men list. Feel free to disagree—just be sure to discuss it here instead of just changing it! DeadpoolRP (talk) 01:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it's not that big of a deal. I'm just trying to ensure that 'official' is 'official'. Whereas some of your adds and seemingly you being the foremost expert is suspect and disconcerting to some degree. Do you happen to know if X-Man will be added via Vol. 3 to the roster or was that just promotional content I saw? I think I saw previous discussion of him being/or not being on the main roster but could you fill me in to that previous and potential status of X-Man? Lastly, is Bird-Boy really a member of New Mutants? I think he (it/ani-mate) is much more suited and appropriately placed in the associates/reserve/etc section. Documentation? Thanks.Tomahawk1221 (talk) 01:20, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner—November and December are crazy. Regarding Nate Grey, so far he's only shown up on promotional material for the new X-Men, vol. 3 series, not in the series itself. Some contributors have been adding him to the active X-Men roster because of this promo material, but since Wikipedia isn't supposed to include info like that about stuff that hasn't actually happened in the comics yet, several others and I have been removing him from the list whenever he's added. Anyway, even though it looks like Nate will be joining the team, it's obviously still uncertain at this point what exactly will happen. Original assumptions were that the vol. 3 promo material all related to the book's first storyline, but it's now become apparent that it covers at least two arcs, and maybe more. so far only Jubilee and Blade from the promo material have been in the fist story arc, and Spider-Man is scheduled to be in the second, but we still don't know how or when Nate, Elektra, and the new "Savage She-Hulk" will be involved.

Regarding Bird-Brain, I know what you mean. However, he wore a New Mutants uniform and was accepted as a member by the team, and his full membership on the team was confirmed both in his entry in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Update '89 #1 and in the team's entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z, vol. 8 hardcover.

Also, just like with all of the teams on this list, when a character leaves the training squad, we don't take them off of the list, we just unbold them to show that they're not current members, so I'll be restoring X-23 and Pixie to the list.

Thanks for your questions and feedback, and let me know if you have any more. I'll start up a new section for new team additions whenever we get confirmation that Nate Grey—or anyone else—joins the team. This section's big enough already, and this hardcover from months ago obviously can't reflect future team additions. DeadpoolRP (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Quick inquiry: Are there any chances Marvel will include any of the above characters mentioned for official Membership (blade, elektra, spiderman, she-hulk), and are you aware of any other future potential additions?Tomahawk1221 (talk) 20:21, 13 December 2010 (UTC) (Just cleaning up the combative and dismissive approach) I would disagree if you thought Indra, Anole would qualify..Tomahawk1221 (talk) 21:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea if Marvel plans to include Spider-Man, Elektra, etc., as X-Men members. If I had to guess, I'd say they'll probably just be guest stars, but who knows. I guess we'll have to wait and see. And as far as characters like Indra and Anole go, although some here on Wikipedia argue that the characters in New X-Men and Young X-Men were full X-Men, I'd suggest we just leave them listed as X-Men-In-Training unless we get something from Marvel more clearly saying that some or all of them have graduated to full X-Men status.

And although some of my responses (and others', I'm sure) have kind of just been left hanging there without any original questions in front of them now, I appreciate your removal of your more combative and/or dismissive comments. DeadpoolRP (talk) 10:08, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Yep, just trying to decide on the best way to respond. Honestly, if you want to find it badly enough, I'm sure you can track it down online somewhere yourself. However, given that it's copyrighted material--and especially given that I'm an active participant on the message boards for Marvel's handbook creators and I try to support them in any way I can so that they keep making more books--I'm really not one hundred percent comfortable with scanning and distributing pages. I'm not saying it's necessarily an outlandish request (like you mentioned) or anything like that, just that I don't feel that I know enough about copyright and fair use and online sharing, etc., to do it worry free. Sorry! If anybody else has any thoughts/ideas regarding their own willingness to do it, though, feel free to chime in. DeadpoolRP (talk) 13:37, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Aurora

I would like to know where it is listed that she is an active X-Man? If it is one of these handbook designations, where they are usually just given the generalized listing of "active" meaning they are alive and actually still superhero-ing somewhere in the Marvel U, that doesn't mean she is still fighting with the X-Men. Lets look at her actual appearances. The place where it was supposedly listed where she joined with the X-Men was during their tie-in to Secret Invasion. Since then, she has not fought with them. In her next appearance, she was seen as the CEO of Northstar's company in their home country of Canada when Wolverine came to recruit him back to the team, and only him, while she stayed behind to run the business. When was next seen was in the Dark X-Men: The Beginning mini, where Norman Osborn tried to recruit her to his team, she confirmed she is still running the business in Canada and not fighting. After that, she was not seen until she was summoned with the rest of the original Alpha Flight members to fight in the Chaos War, where nothing was said about her being with the X-Men. If she is active anywhere, she is active with Alpha Flight, not the X-Men.69.250.56.64 (talk) 02:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

You are absolutely right "69.250.56.64". Deadpool RP, again, you are not the final say here, just because you haven't seen concrete changes with your own two eyes, doesn't mean they don't occur. I ended the new/updated image attempt/conversation because I didn't want to entertain your self-serving authoritarian approach. That's the beauty of wikipedia though, you'll never be the sole proprietor. If you dispute, I'll quickly remind you this is the exact same scenario and rationale with you adding Hope, Fantomex, and X-23.Tomahawk1221 (talk) 18:40, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm still not sure why you're so aggressive about everything, Tomahawk1221. Yes, 69.250.56.64, Aurora is active in Alpha Flight, but so is Northstar, and he's also an X-Men member, so the two aren't mutually exclusive. I haven't read all of Alpha Flight's "Chaos War" appearances, so if in any of them it s actually said that Aurora is no longer an X-Men member, that's a different story and you're right--just give us a reference. But with the X-Men's current status quo of 40+ members (as well as a bunch of students), there are a lot of characters that we don't see on a very regular basis but who are still there in the background as X-Men members. Just look at Warpath: Wolverine said that Warpath was leaving X-Force, so editors here started removing him from the list of X-Men members (even though nothing was said about him quitting the X-Men), despite his cameo fighting on the streets of San Francisco during "Second Coming." And sure enough, months later he appeared in X-Men: To Serve and Protect #3, still a member of the X-Men.

Aurora joined the X-Men in Secret Invasion: X-Men. Her X-Men membership was confirmed as still active months later in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z, vol. 13 (and yes, she was listed as an active X-Men member, not just as an active superhero--and to whoever compared her membership to Lifeguard's in an edit summary, Lifeguard was listed as a former member, so there's a difference). She was again listed as an X-Men member still more months later in the Women of Marvel profiles book. And I have online confirmation that Marvel editorial considers her an active member because she's on call and could fly to Utopia and help out any time she is needed, which you can find right here in post #77, which confirms that Aurora joined during "Secret Invasion" and is still a member per Marvel editorial, although she doesn't go on many missions but could get to Utopia within minutes if needed. More discussion on the topic can be seen here in post #102.

So until we get confirmation either on panel or from a reliable source that they've left the team, I'd argue that we need to leave characters like Aurora, Hepzibah, Warpath, Husk, Boom-Boom, etc., on the active membership list, even if they just pop up every once in a while or go many months without getting any face time. That's just the nature of the X-Men beast right now. Saying "It's been X number of months since we've seen character Y with the X-Men, so they're no longer a member" or "They appeared in this series and there was no mention of X-Men membership, so they're not a member" seems like original research/speculation to me. I don't remember Dr. Strange announcing himself as an Avenger when he helped the X-Men track down Blink, but that doesn't mean he's NOT one. Same thing goes here.

So, I've provided sources saying Aurora's a member. I'm trying to do what this page says to: Make sure things are verifiable by providing sources and assume good faith instead of accusing people of hijacking pages (as I've been accused). What does everyone else think? Do we have confirmation anywhere that she's not an active member anymore? Let me know if I've missed some actual confirmation in "Chaos War," because I'm very open to new information on this and the possibility that I'm wrong, I'm just not seeing any evidence of it at present. And please, let's discuss this civilly. DeadpoolRP (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

This clarifies the matter. Aurora is still an X-Man. http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1550292&postcount=146 "right now she, like Northstar, is still considered an active member of the X-Men. She's not with them much, that's all, but if Wolverine can be on X-Force, X-Men and the Avengers simultaneously, and Spider-Man can be an Avenger and member of the Future Foundation both at the same time, then two people who can move at superhuman speeds can juggle dual team commitments. That could change once the new Alpha Flight series starts, but right as of this moment, the Beaubiers are both still X-Men." 109.152.148.225 (talk) 23:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Only problem I have with these links, who is this guy and why is what he says truth? If he someone with Marvel, then how do we know it's him and not someone pretending? 69.250.56.64 (talk) 18:40, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Stuart Vandal is one of the writers/researchers for Marvel's various handbook, index, and collected edition series, and the posts linked to are in the forums specifically set up for discussion of the handbook, etc., and run by the handbook contributors. Mr. Vandal is one of the moderators there, and even if he weren't, I'd imagine that the other handbook writers would figure out pretty quickly if it weren't the real Stuart Vandal answering questions, commenting on recent releases, announcing upcoming handbook projects, and so forth. There's probably some way you could talk to a Comixfan site administrator and verify things if you really disbelieve that he's who he says he is, though. DeadpoolRP (talk) 04:28, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

X-Men Team Image

I was just looking around on some comic related sites and found a more recent image of the X-Men (with some of their villains) that depicts current members and deceased but notable members. I'm just asking about it here, because I think it could reek of recentism to upload a more recent version, but it also depicts some classic characters (eg; Jean Grey) and current pivotal characters (eg; Hope Summers, who seems to be the current plot force in the X-Men comics). If you need a link I'd be willing to provide one, but first off I'd like to know if it would be in any way an improvement to include such an image. Comics (talk) 03:00, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

First off, I'm glad you brought this up, not sure if anyone noticed but it's 2011 now and the current pic of "X-Men teams in 2006" is not only severely dated, but defending it as the only option no longer holds merit. A year or two ago people defended it but it's not "current" whatsoever with team makeups/rosters. I have no clue what "reek of recentism" means, but what I do know is you're probably speaking of an image "future of the X-Men", which it being a nice image and including many main plot characters, it doesn't depict what this list of members/teams incorporates. In my opinion, X-Men Vol. 2 (Legacy) #200 cover image is far superior option to any as it most clearly depicts the history of X-Men membership. The argument that characters can't be seen: Can't the image size be increased on the page? And so what if you can't make out each individual face on the #200 cover as the main team image, if the reader is curious enough the image can be clicked on to receive a higher resolution. Thoughts? Current pic must go! Alternatives? #200 cover pros and cons? Tomahawk1221 (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2011 (UTC) What picture other than vol. 2 #200, in the history of X-Men team encompassing illustrations better depicts what this website is about, DeadpoolRP?? Not a single one. It's a fact, that image is far and away the most suitable for this list, and yes, it's a couple years old, but without a doubt it reflects this page best over any other image ever created.Tomahawk1221 (talk) 00:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

A different image might be a good idea, but I'm not sure that we're going to find a more recent image that's as comprehensive as the current one by Mark Brooks is. The gatefold cover to X-Men, vol. 2 #200 is nice, but it's no more up-to-date than the Brooks image. I'm not sure why the Brooks one is labeled as members of the teams in 2006, since it was originally published as a pinup in X-Men, vol. 2 #200 (which came out in June of 2007), making both images equally out-of-date. (I guess the Brooks image could have been used earlier as a promo image, but I don't see how that would make much difference.) The Djurdjevic image Comic master mentioned could work, but it's more thematic than complete, though I don't think we'll have much luck finding a complete/comprehensive image at all from the last three years. If we really DO want a more current image, though, the only one that really pops to mind is the Greg Land cover to Uncanny X-Men #500, which features a large number of characters and a good sampling of current X-Men members and students, though it's already a few years old as well. I would say the David Finch cover to X-Men: Second Coming #1, which has a good sampling of important current X-Men, but Hope's a bit too prominent in it, and Nightcrawler and Cable are now dead, so it might not be a good fit either. I'd suggest that we all start looking through recent X-Men covers and pinups and then bring any ideas back here, unless we can come to a consensus about any of the images suggested so far. DeadpoolRP (talk) 00:11, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there is a better one out there, but it's even older, so it's more out of date. I have (or maybe had, since I'm not sure if it's still in a box somewhere) a poster from some '90s Marvel giveaway that had every member of the X-Men up to that point. Magneto was noticeably absent, probably because he was considered "too much of a villain to include" at that point, but I think that was the only omission. And it was nice, because everyone was about the same size, unlike the #200 cover where some characters are so tiny and in the background. But yes, I get your point. Was there a strong consensus against it last time? I would suggest soliciting opinions from assorted comics editors on their talk pages, etc., and seeing what people think. DeadpoolRP (talk) 03:43, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, this is the image I was talking of which is at Comicvine. It seems to be by Marko Djurdjevic, and is a compilation of some recent covers. Dates back to 2010 I believe. Sure it displays some villains, but there has been a precedent set where images have been cropped to focus on the subject of the article (in this case, the X-Men members). Could this image serve as an improvement on the '06 one? It has iconic characters Wolverine, Jean Grey, Cyclops, Collosus and Nightcrawler as well as recent characters such as X-23 and Hope Summers. Comics (talk) 12:51, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd just like to take a quick survey of who feels the "X-Men Team Image" is acceptable the way it is currently? Tomahawk1221 (talk) 01:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Split

Shouldn't we split this page into different articles for every different team? E.g. this article for the main team, and new articles for X-Force, New Mutants, Generation X, X-Factor, etc. Third New Revolver (talk) 06:04, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I've got a 'no' vote on this idea. Keeping off-shoot teams together is more cohesive and reflects the X-Men franchise in the best manner. Tomahawk1221 (talk) 02:10, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I too vote no on splitting things up, especially now that all of the various teams (X-Force, students, X-Club, etc.) are part of the official extended X-Men team. And even the majority of the previous teams were part of the official Xavier Institute: The New Mutants were students of Xavier, X-Force was part of the Institute for a while, Generation X was a second campus for the school, etc. So other than the more loosely connected X-Factor and Excalibur teams, they're all quite, quite closely connected. If you have a more compelling argument for the split and can explain exactly what you'd split and where you'd put it, though, I'd be open to further discussion, I guess. DeadpoolRP (talk) 19:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

GLA

It is my opinion this addition has no place being in this article (other than being listed/added to the list of "Ancillary Teams"). Deadpool, you know full well Osborn's and Cerebro's have a lot more, even though not directly affiliated, to do with the X-Men teams than the Great Lakes Avengers/Champions/Initiative. My vote is to keep Osborn's and Cerebro's and remove obviously the GLA. I'm frankly surprised you're advocating and contributing even to the section. Tomahawk1221 (talk) 01:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you're attacking me about this. All I'm saying is that if we already have three unofficial teams on the list (Osborn's team had no connection to the school or Xavier and was a separate government entity; Cerebro's X-Men weren't even real people, just holograms created by the school's mutant-detecting equipment; the Young X-Men started off as a team begun by a villain in disguise, and one of its members died before the team even became official), this unofficial team needs to be discussed and reasons beyond just "it's not official" need to be provided. It's not the kind of thing that should just be reverted because of reasons that apply just as well to other things on the list. Plus, if it's going to be on the list for any amount of time, it should at least be in the correct format, which is what I did. So, let's look at the pros and cons of keeping it:

Cons: (1.) They're not an official X-Men team, but neither were the other three I've already mentioned.

Pros: (1.) At least they're heroes! Osborn's team and Cerebro's team were both villains, and the Young X-Men were founded by a villain and send out to (unknowingly) do his villainous work.

(2.) At least they're all mutants (with the possible exception of Tippy-Toe)! Cerebro's X-Men were holograms, and the other two teams were formed and led by humans (and Osborn's team included three members who were apparently just enhanced humans—Mimic, Cloak, and Dagger—though all have briefly been X-Men, either before or after).

(3.) The precedent is clearly there for unofficial teams to be included.

I'm by no means strongly in favor of keeping them on the list, but I am voting to keep them for the time being, at least until there's further discussion and a strong consensus for removing them (because as of right now, there are two people for including them and two against). DeadpoolRP (talk) 02:33, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

First of all, never once in my revert or any of my edits in the past have I done something "because I said so". Hell, most of the time my edits revolve around what's been decided upon by discussions, several of which Deadpool was a part of and a major part of how the discussion unfolded, or things based on how they went down in the comics. I find it kind of insulting in fact to have someone say that about me. If I owned this site, that would be one thing, but I don't even use a name around here. Next, I don't know why the Young X-Men are even a part of this discussion, they may have started off being used by a villain, but they did become an official team later on, so they do count. Osborn and Cerebro's X-Men have never really even made sense to me as being on this list anyway because, as stated already, they are villains. And finally, on the GLA, it doesn't make sense to include a team who decide, essentially on a whim, to call themselves X-Men, something which barely lasts in between their appearances from when they decide it until they return. Yes, I know, they are a "joke" team, but they've gone through about four names already, and are we really supposed to consider them a full sub team of each group they claim to be a part of? I doubt it. We need to either get rid of Osborn, Cerebro, and the GLA sections, or put them in their own "Villain/Imposter/Joke" section.69.250.56.64 (talk) 03:02, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I apologize if my frustration showed through, because I had no intention of insulting you. I do, however, get frustrated by personal attacks and insults (as well as things bordering on them) that seem to be directed at me somewhat frequently (especially in the past) on this talk page, even if they are often removed later, and I felt that the initial comment here was somewhat in that same vein. I apologize again and have removed the offending phrase. Thanks for your comments on the matter in question. DeadpoolRP (talk) 03:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Sensitive much? My god I wasn't being malicious to any degree. You call my comment an 'attack' about just being surprised that GLA on this list of all things is surprising that it received backing?! Hardly, and moreso just a reasonable opinion. Don't be on the defensive so much. The facts are that this is a joke team that is completely unrelated except for in-name reference. When you assume the ultimate authority role here, you're subject to constructive criticism. Same rings true of you being unreasonable and deleting comments after the fact. Unrelated, I agree with your comments about potential changes with the utopia/institute teams. Don't translate the past to the present, I wasn't 'attacking' or malicious, so move on. Tomahawk1221 (talk) 17:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Aggressive much? I hope the above comment was an adequate example to everyone of what I'm talking about. Thanks for following the four guidelines at the top of the page (be polite, assume good faith, avoid personal attacks, and be welcoming) so well. DeadpoolRP (talk) 03:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

"Adequate example": of what exactly?? Of my non-confrontational and level-headed approach? You must believe me to be a stranger to sarcasm. This discussion is over, I will turn my back on it simply because you're completely over-dramatic and it's just sad.Tomahawk1221 (talk) 04:11, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Per the page Wikipedia:Civility, linked to in the "Be polite" rule above: "In the event of rudeness or incivility on the part of another editor, it may be appropriate to discuss the offending words with that editor." Therefore:

• Telling someone "you know full well _____" is not only incorrect (a person has no way to know, let alone assert, what someone else does or doesn't know), but it is also impolite and an example of using the second person to discuss the editor instead of the content, as discussed on the page Wikipedia:No personal attacks (linked to above in the rule "Avoid personal attacks").
• Similarly, expressing surprise that someone would "even advocate or contribute" to something is again focusing on the editor over the content, and it is belittling towards the actions of another editor using an intensifier (even, in addition to multiple exclamation marks, double question marks, etc., used elsewhere), also discouraged on the page Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers, linked to in the "Be welcoming" rule above.
• Accusing another editor of being overly sensitive, defensive, and completely over-dramatic is impolite, plain and simple, as is calling their actions sad. These are personal attacks.
• Use of the expletive "My god" is aggressive and impolite, is offensive to many, and is hardly non-confrontational and level-headed.
• Accusing another editor of assuming the role of "ultimate authority" is also impolite, especially when that editor has carefully explained and discussed every change they have made in the past, citing sources, discussing precedents, and focusing on content and not editors.
• It is impolite to accuse someone of being unreasonable, as is accusing them of "deleting comments after the fact" when they themselves pointed out that they were removing content as part of an attempt to be polite and apologize for something.
• Again, accusing someone of "translat[ing] the past to the present" and telling them to "move on" is impolite and aggressive.
• Asserting that "This discussion is over" is yet again impolite, as well as authoritative, abrupt, and not welcoming to discussion.

I honestly can't understand your claims that you haven't attacked or been malicious or that you've been completely reasonable; however, I am always willing to apologize and accept that I may have made a mistake, so I'm sorry if my statements have offended you or if I've interpreted them as being more extreme than was your intention. My suggestion to you in this case and others would be to step back from the situation, look at the content in question, and express clearly your thoughts on that content, along with your sources and reasons for those thoughts, without any reference to or mention of the editors involved, like so (though this statement reflects my thoughts, of course, and not yours):

Based on the inclusion of three other teams with varying degrees of unofficial connection to the X-Men in this list, it seems that just removing the Great Lakes Avengers/X-Men is premature without first addressing the deeper issue of what constitutes an "X-Men splinter team" and which other unofficial X-Men teams, if any, should also be removed.

Past that, the fact that another editor thinks that two of the other unofficial X-Men teams on this list should be removed suggests that the situation is not as cut and dried as it might seem, so more discussion is needed so that consensus can be reached. DeadpoolRP (talk) 06:08, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

ANYway, back to the situation at hand, it seems pretty clear that everyone here believe the GLA, Cerebro, and Osborn inclusions are iffy at best, so what should be done about them? Are they to be removed altogether or moved to their own section? At the very least, I think we should create a Villain/Imposter section and move Cerebro's and Osborn's teams there, while GLA's inclusion even in that is debatable. Other thoughts? 69.250.56.64 (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Would it work to start a section up specifically for unofficial/unsanctioned X-Men teams, as opposed to villain teams, so that way all three groups could be included? DeadpoolRP (talk) 18:32, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

That could work as well. We might just need a small detail writing underneath it like "The following are teams that are not officially sanctioned X-Men, though still have used the name to announce or promote themselves." 69.250.56.64 (talk) 20:51, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. DeadpoolRP (talk) 23:58, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

New Additions & Changes

Will the Official X-Men team soon include Legion and Frenzy (Cargill) as per X-Men: Legacy (Vol. 2) #250? Does anyone know of potential future additions either through gossip, or online/in-print solicitations? Or additions to other x-teams? Characters leaving current teams, etc... ? Tomahawk1221 (talk) 02:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I would imagine that Frenzy and Legion will become official X-Men following "Age of X," but I guess we'll have to wait and see exactly how things turn out first. It also looks likely that Blink and Nate Grey will be joining the X-Men, possibly as members of the evolving "New Mutants" squad when Abnett and Lanning take over the book (which is also scheduled to feature the return of Havok, Polaris, Marvel Girl, and maybe Korvus, etc.), but again we'll have to wait and see. The ones that I do think need to be added to the current list are the "Five Lights," probably as a sub-group of the X-Men-In-Training squad, and Random. Both from comments writer Mike Carey has made on Facebook and things written in the recent Heroic Age: X-Men book regarding Rogue's rotating X-Men squad ("an ever-shifting team comprised [sic] of members from the student body [notably the 'Five Lights' recruited by Hope]," etc.), they all seem to qualify as X-Men of one sort or another. And who knows what other changes there'll be post–"Age of X" (not to mention post-"Schism")! DeadpoolRP (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, the latest issue of Uncanny X-Force (#9) calls Deathlok the newest member of the team, not just an ally, so should we change that? DeadpoolRP (talk) 02:28, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think up until this point there's been enough to warrant his inclusion and with #9 I'll agree with you, can you change his status on the article? Thanks!Tomahawk1221 (talk) 03:02, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Sure, sounds good. I'm going to leave his joining issue as #7, unless you think we should change it to #9. DeadpoolRP (talk) 03:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I think we should consider adding The Lights to this. We finally have codenames for them, and there's plenty of interviews out there saying to expect them to be around for awhile. I've come up with a tentative box for them, which you can view here. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome, and I'll put it up on the main page when ready. 69.250.56.64 (talk) 13:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

It looks like a good start, but a few comments: (1.) I'm still not sure where the best place to put the team would be. Should they be in their own section? Should they be part of the X-Men-In-Training list since they are X-Men-in-training of one sort or another and since that's what Heroic Age: X-Men seemed to be saying? (2.) There's probably too much detailed information about each character. I'd compare it to what's written about the members on the main list and see if you can trim it down. What does everyone else think? DeadpoolRP (talk) 19:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I vote for this group to be placed above the New X-Men and Young X-Men sections. Are they really part of the substitute sub-groups/in-training group? Seems more appropriate that they are an off-shoot student group.Tomahawk1221 (talk) 20:28, 25 June 2011 (UTC) Also, I know this is the wrong forum, but it's been over a year and no one has answered a question I've on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fifty_State_Initiative ..Could someone give some insight or know of some thread that discusses this? thanks Tomahawk1221 (talk) 22:00, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I've trimmed down the bios a bit, mainly removing material that can be saved for their own specific pages whenever they are created, and reworded a couple things. I hope the length is a little more satisfactory. Also, I think I can agree in that they can be considered with the splinter sections, where Tomahawk suggested. I reread issue 5 where Hope lays out how she wants the team to work in relative to the X-Men, and that would probably work best. She wants to be able to run the team with minimal interference from Scott and the X-Men proper, the calls to be hers to make, they just give the supplies. He agrees, but on the condition that they still allow the X-Men to teach, and sometimes train them. So the Lights are a part but separate, as I believe the saying goes, and labeling them a splinter team would be best. 69.250.56.64 (talk) 13:41, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, I tend to disagree about separating the Lights out as a splinter team as opposed to an X-Men sub-group. They have the same headquarters, they use the same facilities and equipment, heck, they're using the X-Men's lawyer, and their leader is an active member of the X-Men! And when it all comes down to it, if their actions get them into trouble, it's going to be Cyclops who's going to have to deal with it as the leader of the X-Men and their extended family. Yes, Cyclops gave them a lot of freedom and autonomy, but I think that was a strategic move on his part—better to grant them the freedoms they want (with some conditions) than to drive them away and off of the island, where they'd be completely outside of the X-Men's control or even influence.

I understand that some of the teams in the splinter section had close ties to the X-Men (the original New Mutants, for example, and the various Xavier Institute student squads), but the structure and hierarchy of the X-Men have fundamentally changed under Cyclops's leadership in recent years. In fact, while they were students, the New X-Men and Young X-Men squads arguably don't belong in the splinter section, because the formation of the New X-Men squad was the moment when the students went from being various squads of mutants being trained by the X-Men to the actual, official X-Men members in training, as was stated at the time, and as Marvel has further clarified since then by identifying them as various incarnations of the same (and now expanded) X-Men-In-Training squad. They aren't just students—they're also X-Men.

Norman Osborn's X-Men, on the other hand, I believe are in the wrong place—sure, they were an official, U.S. government–sponsored team of X-Men, but they had no official connection to the original X-Men or Xavier's school, other than that two of their founding members (Emma and Namor) were actual X-Men basically infiltrating the team to undermine it from within. So I'd suggest putting the Lights in where Osborn's X-Men are and moving Osborn's team to the end of the splinter section (which is also where Cerebro's X-Men are).

Finally, regarding your Initiative question, Tomahawk1221, I understand your frustration. The curious fan in me similarly wishes that Marvel would just give us a list of exactly which mutants still have their powers and exactly which ones are depowered. However, the thing that you have to understand is that comics are a collaborative, creative endeavor, and Marvel doesn't want to needlessly limit the freedom and creativity of future creators and their stories. For Marvel to arbitrarily map out all of the fifty Initiative teams without any intention of actually using half of them in-story would probably be, from a creative perspective, inferior to having the teams form organically in the stories Marvel's writers were telling, even if that leads to only some of the teams being used/revealed. So just like Marvel isn't going to provide us with a list of exactly which 376 (for example) mutants are the only ones who still have powers, an action which would limit future writers who come along and have certain mutants they want to use who aren't on the list to either (1.) not being able to use them, (2.) having to come up with a convoluted way to give them their powers back, or (3.) having to retroactively add them to the list or throw out the list altogether, Marvel isn't going to give us a complete list of Initiative teams that never appeared in the comics along with their lineups. However, just as they've been slowly showing more mutants and revealing whether they still have their powers on a case-by-case basis (whether in-story or in handbooks), it's very possible that as different heroes are used in various settings (or given profiles in handbooks), Marvel could have them talk about or flash back to the Initiative teams they were on and who their teammates were. And who knows, some creative team could decide to use a character or group of characters that they love in an upcoming storyline, and the previously unrevealed experiences of the character(s) during the Initiative could be a major component of the back story and character motivation that they establish, something that would be impossible or severely limited by arbitrary assignment of exactly what all of the teams were and who was on them.

Plus, I'm sure that there are tons of other factors involved. For example, you may have noticed that California's team was mentioned in-story as being the Champions, but when the team's actual series came out, their name had to be changed to the Order because Marvel can no longer use Champions as a series title since a gaming company holds the trademark for the title (or something similar—I may have some of the details wrong, but that's the basic idea). So . . . frustrating? I understand. But I also understand to some degree where they're coming from, and more information could very well always be forthcoming. I hope that helps. DeadpoolRP (talk) 20:27, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

T-RAY: what shall we do with this addition? Seems like this obscure, situational and only once occuring character was in the Honorary/Allies section long ago and has seemingly disappeared for unknown reasons. My vote to to place him in the honorary section again, he certainly does not belong in the main list. Thoughts? Tomahawk1221 (talk) 03:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that he should be added to the other status section. Marvel has released several X-Men membership lists and handbook entries since the special-projects comic he appeared in came out as a free issue in a specialty market, and T-Ray was never listed as a team member in any of those lists/entries, so we don't even know if that issue happened in Marvel-616 continuity. Unless Marvel's editors decide to have their handbook staff give T-Ray a handbook entry (like they've done for several of the characters who first appeared in Marvel's Hostess ads), my guess is that he's not considered a 616 X-Man; however, plenty of the characters in the other status section are basically "status unclear" characters, so you're right, that's where I'd put him. DeadpoolRP (talk) 20:49, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

• (Can you say who the characters were in the Hostess ads?) thanks.Tomahawk1221 (talk) 17:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Icemaster is the only one that really pops to mind (he was first used in Thurderbolts, I believe, and most recently appeared in Fear Itself: The Home Front, where a Hostess fruit pies joke was made), though I'm pretty sure there are several more. Actually, according to the Icemaster page here on Wikipedia, he's the only one to actually be used in continuity, so that's probably the case. (Sorry, I didn't even see your question when you first posted it.)

Also, you may have noticed that I added Nate Grey to the X-Men list since he was confirmed as a member of Dani's squad in the latest New Mutants issue, and I marked Chamber as active again since he was one of many X-Men sent out to take care of Sentinel attacks/malfunctions in X-Men: Schism #2 (both cited in my edit summary). Schism #2 also confirmed that Aurora is still an active X-Men member, and she got her first on-panel appearance with the team since Secret Invasion: X-Men in that issue. DeadpoolRP (talk) 01:10, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, for what it's worth, Generation Hope #8 has once again made clear that the Lights are definitely X-Men of some sort. The recap page says, "After successfully completing their first mission as an officially sanctioned X-Men squad, Hope and company are met with some disturbing news." And later in the issue Hope says, "We're X-Men. We need code names in the field." So they're at least an X-Men sub-team, and maybe even full X-Men, but it's probably simplest to leave them where they are until we get some kind of definitive statement of what their status is compare to other X-Men members. Otherwise they'll end up jumping around within the X-Men section based on various users' interpretations of what their exact status is. DeadpoolRP (talk) 05:00, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

"Actually, according to the Icemaster page here on Wikipedia, he's the only one to actually be used in continuity" - citing Wikipedia as a source to confirm something for a discussion on another part of Wikipedia? Icemaster was the first Hostess character to be confirmed as being in mainstream continuity, but several others turned up in prison in one of the Fin Fang Four stories. 109.157.9.10 (talk) 22:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Hey, go easy on me here! ;) I feel my response was appropriately hedged: I left my initial gut reaction (that there were several Hostess characters now in continuity) in the post because that's the impression I had from things I'd read on various Web site (like the Marvel handbook forums, etc.); however, I'm not an expert on those characters, and I didn't have time to do a ton of research, so I couldn't verify my gut reaction and instead put what I could verify, which is that Icemaster, at least, is in continuity. And when I cited the Icemaster page, I did said that it was only probably right, not definitely. Plus, it was only a talk page, not an actual Wiki page!

And speaking of the the Fin Fang Four stuff, which I've never read, is that actually in continuity? Fin Fang Foom seems to be all over the place in the last 10 years, what with Nextwave, Fin Fang Four, the current Astonishing X-Men arc, etc., which kind of makes me wonder if all of these dragons are the same dragon and if a shrunk-down FFF is really living in New York, etc. I've already been burned for researching on Wikipedia, so I guess I should track down the latest Fin Fang Foom handbook entry and see how it maps everything out, though I'm not sure how recent his latest entry or update was. DeadpoolRP (talk) 23:21, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Per handbook entries, the Nextwave Fin Fang Foom was a clone, just like the clone Elvis MODOKs, talking Devil Dinosaru and other ersatz Beyond Corporation creations. Elektro the robot, another of the Fin Fang Four, has his FFF adventures listed in his history in last year's A-Z Handbook Update #2, which includes mention of the Hostess villains he met. Whether Fin Fang Foom in Astonishing X-Men proves to be the real deal, presumably slipped off the straight and narrow, or another duplicate, only time will tell. 94.1.150.195 (talk) 23:57, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

• Alright folks, let's start the discussion/speculation as to the rosters in the coming shake-up of titles. We've seen some teaser material, but as time goes along let's confirm which characters will be where and how we'll reflect that in this list (ie: new additions, splinters, etc).Tomahawk1221 (talk) 16:55, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, in order to avoid this list almost doubling in size after X-Men: Schism, I would strongly suggest that we not make whole new lists for the two groups of X-Men; instead, if at all possible with the new status quo, I'd suggest just adding a note saying "Current member of the Utopia X-Men" or "Current member of the Xavier Institute X-Men" (assuming Wolverine's team does end up restarting the school) for each member who's still active after Schism, and the same could be done for the X-Men-In-Training. The only potential problem could be if the X-Club or Lights split up, because (for example) I don't imagine Idie will be considered a Light anymore if she does go with Wolverine, as has been speculated, so she'd probably just become an Xavier Institute X-Men-In-Training member (or full-fledged member, though that seems unlikely). I guess my main suggestion would just be to discuss things before anyone makes any major changes, which I'm sure both of us will do, but should we put a note (I'm not sure what they're called, but the kind you can only see when you edit a page) at the top of the page telling people not to add post-Schism speculation and not to make major format changes without discussing them first after Schism ends? DeadpoolRP (talk) 19:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

It was fun to see Doop in Wolverine & the X-Men #1. So, now the debate begins about whether or not his "adjunct staff" status makes him an X-Man like the other adjunct staff member, Frenzy. I'm thinking we should wait and see if they give us further information, but what does everyone else say? DeadpoolRP (talk) 22:03, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Same instance as Pip not being a member of X-Factor.Tomahawk1221 (talk) 02:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd definitely say wait, for sure. At best, right now I'd just consider him under the "Allies" section for an addition. Being staff at the school hasn't meant automatic X-Men membership in the past, ala Moira Mactaggert, Tom Corsi, Nurse Annie with the screwy last name, etc. And he's not the only one we need to probably discuss. We now have Toad working at the school. Plus we also have several new students, some of which aren't your typical mutants, like Broo the Broodling and Kid Gladiator. Just about everyone else there have been listed under the X-Men-in-Training section, do we still count them there as well since it's a new school with new rules? Or would it be better to start a new section in the Splinter Teams area after Xavier Institute Students called Jean Grey Institute Students for these new and old students, since they aren't specifically training to be X-Men? 69.250.56.64 (talk) 23:41, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I would probably wait before making a new section for Wolverine's students. We didn't get a ton of info in the first issue, so we shouldn't jump to any conclusions. For now I'd say stick to what was discussed above: labeling X-Men (and trainees) as current members of the Utopia X-Men or the Jean Grey School/Westchester X-Men, or something like that. DeadpoolRP (talk) 14:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I think all xmen should be in from mainstream an alternate worlds!