Talk:List of best-selling video games/Archive 4

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Bioshock

isn't Bioshock the top 360 game for the year of 2007? since released thats what everyone was talking about! and I see the page is locked some one please put this to concern.. Bioshock —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.9.58 (talk) 02:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

just because its one of the top games doesnt meen its one of the top-selling...but it probably is anyways —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.219.230 (talk) 15:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Tom clancy's

Why do all the games of Tom Clancy's are seperate in the top of franchise —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.201.184.114 (talk • contribs).

Because we have references for the individual games, but not for the franchise itself. -- ReyBrujo 02:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon on the Xbox sold over 1 million units. I can't find a web reference, but I have seen the 1mil+ trophy from MS. Serellan 04:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Motorstorm is a million seller

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6173823.html

Frankly, it doesn't surprise me, as I've heard the European sales were in excess of 500k.

7FlushSetzer 22:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Tekken 3 numbers grossly low

If you can't find numbers for Europe or Japan, fine. But don't shame the poor game. From my knowledge, it sold at least 6 million. I'll try to find a source for numbers in other regions.

Yikes, finding numbers is more difficult than I thought it would be.

7FlushSetzer 20:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php Lists Tekken 3 as having sold 6.91 million copies, (1.40 Japan, 3.09 US, 2.42 Other) Nightwing 1 11:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Also re: Tekken, it should be listed in the biggest selling franchise list. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=9038 lists it has having sold over 20 million copies, and that was before Tekken 5 or Dark Ressurection were released, DR itself has sold over a million on PSP. Nightwing 1 21:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

We should wait until they release a updated count. Note that New Super Mario Bros sold quite a lot, yet we are using an older reference for the Mario games until a new updated franchise one is released. -- ReyBrujo 18:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, added Tekken to the list of franchises, thanks for searching around! -- ReyBrujo 18:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Tetris

Okay, someone needs to add Tetris to franchises. This source, lists Tetris as having sold 60 million units, as of 2002. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2002_June_26/ai_87770323 They cite 88 games, but there have been well over 120 games, several of which have sold over a million. (TDS) Could someone find a more recent source and add it in? 68.84.221.153 19:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks! -- ReyBrujo 18:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Missing franchises

From what I see, and after adding Frogger, I notice we are missing some values. Pac-Man has obviously sold more than 10 million, but haven't yet found a reference. I would say Gradius (including spin-offs like Parodius), Galaga and Galaxian should also be a safe bet. The Elder Scrolls is another franchise that may have reached 10 million already. Battlefield at 9.9 million, so it may be possible to find another reference for it. Soul Calibur was at 9 million, still a little behind. Other suggestions for inclusion? -- ReyBrujo 19:26, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I was checking Taito, they have several old games like Space Invaders, Arkanoid, Bubble Bobble, etc. About Arkanoid, I found a unreliable source stating it has sold over 10 million. We need to find a better source, though. -- ReyBrujo 20:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Nintendo Games

I found this texte in the website of nintendo and they have lots informations about the games who sold more than 1 million in th end of march 2007 . You can see that zelda on game cube sold more than 1million , warioware on wii also and many others. Just check out at the page 5 http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2007/070427e.pdf —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.201.184.114 (talk • contribs).

Great find! I updated the lists accordingly. Zomic_13 00:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if we can find older ones... -- ReyBrujo 01:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I looked on the Japanese financial page where this document as well as others are located. This supplement page is the only one of its kind, unless they are archived somewhere. I'll look deeper. Zomic_13 03:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

On a side note, having a source like this is great because it vastly reduces the number of sources needed. The list went from having 182 sources to 171. Zomic_13 03:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Incomplete data?

This is a cool list, but it seems incomplete -- probably because of the additive nature -- people put stuff on the list based on mentions in media articles, rather than definitive sales lists. Too bad that data doesn't seem to exist anyplace. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spyrus (talk • contribs).

Well, we need reliable sources, and most (if not all) references used come from reliable sites.

The list will always be incomplete because of the nature of the data: some companies never release information, others release every other quarter, and others once per year. And there is information that just can't be found in internet (especially old stuff), I just created the Atari section last week, and it was quite an effort to find sources for that. Anyways, the list (especially the franchise one) is pretty accurate: after adding Tetris some days ago, the only high profile title we are missing is Pac-Man, others may have done well, but I don't think they would crack in the top 10. There was a time when the full list had a single reference, vgcharts.org. Nowadays we are nearing 200. -- ReyBrujo 20:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

We were missing Castlevania somehow... Added it, now I think we have all of them :) -- ReyBrujo 20:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The list is now complete. Castlevania was the missing link! :P Zomic_13 23:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I posted this link in a previous comment, it seems as good a place as any for game sales data in case anyones interested http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php Nightwing 1 20:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Vgchart[sz], Nexgenwars and similar sites are considered not reliable for now, so we try to not use them. -- ReyBrujo 01:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Others websites nintendo

Hello , it's again (exuse me for me english i'm a canadian french, i have a lot references about selling games but it's in french )ok i found this, it's all documents financial of nintendo since 2000 i don't undersand very well but maybe you will understand more than me . I think they have lots informations in that. http://www.nintendo.co.jp/kessan/english.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.201.184.193 (talk • contribs).

We will check them out, thanks. Note that we also accept other languages, we have Japanese, Spanish and German links too, and most likely a Jeux-France link too. -- ReyBrujo 02:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Updates

Greetings, could anyone tell me how often these charts get updated? Is it a regular thing, say, every month, or just when new data becomes available?

Many thanks. Big Al 1984 07:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Whenever we find updated information. For some titles, we used to update them every week with the Media Create chart, released every Friday; for others, every month with the NPD charts. It really depends on when we find more information, and that in itself depends on when the companies release updated information. -- ReyBrujo 12:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Brain Age; so popular it's both third and seventh

Brain Age is listed twice as a best selling title for the DS. In third place it sells 8.51 Million units, according to a Gamespot article posted in October, 2006, while in seventh it sells 7.7 Million units, according to a Nintendo earnings release made in March 2007. So, what, were 700,000 units returned between October and March? Personally I'm inclined to go with the Nintendo report as it's more recent, and Nintendo have nothing to gain by saying that their product sold less. Regardless of which source is trusted, there's no reason to have two entries for the same damn game. Darien Shields 04:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The first one included the sequel in Japan, while the second does not. -- ReyBrujo 12:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is it not listed on the best selling franchises? Pekinho 04:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. We needed a source that indicated franchise sales. -- ReyBrujo 03:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Where is Duck Hunt?

I was reading this list, and I missed Duck Hunt for Nintendo Entertainment System... It's one of the best-selling Nintendo 8-bit franchise, isn't it? 'Cause I've even seen once that were sol more than 20 million units worldwide... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.15.118.23 (talk • contribs).

The farther we go in time, the harder it is to find numbers for these games, and we cannot insert games without a reference. -- ReyBrujo 01:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

If you can give us the website on which you saw that Duck Hunt sold over 20 million copies, then we may be able to add it. Zomic_13 03:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hexic and other Xbox Live Arcade Games

Hexic was delivered free on every 360 Hard Drive. The Xbox 360 has sold about 10 million times, the Core hasn't sold 9 million times. So Hexic has sold at least a million. Aside from that, there were other million sellers among the XBLA titles, but I can't remember which ones. 81.240.6.181 12:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The Sims 2

I changed the sales of the Sims 2 to reflect the best possible data. According to EA in their press release for the upcoming expansion, Bon Voyage, the base game of the Sims 2 has sold over 13 million worldwide. The press release, which I have linked, states "The Sims 2 shipped in September 2004 with sales already topping 13M units worldwide, it was the best selling PC game of 2004." This sales data comes directly from EA. 72.49.194.69 07:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Joshua

Kirby: Squeak Squad

About the reference for Kirby: Squeak Squad, [1] it states "Kirby - 1.73m" under the DS section, but couldn't that mean Kirby: Canvas Curse is the one that sold 1.73 million copies and not Kirby: Squeak Squad? --Silver Edge 03:02, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it could. Thanks for pointing this out, Silver Edge. I can't correct it however, as I don't know. 72.49.194.69 03:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC) Joshua

Silent Hill?

does anyone have the sales for the Silent Hill games? I just read on IGN that SH2 sold more than a million in one month but I don't see it on the list and I don't know what they sold as of 2007 I put it on the list as "Silent Hill 2 - at least 1 million" but that's from 2001 and it probably sold a lot more by now. can someone find the current info for the SH games? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.177.232.128 (talk • contribs).

Can you give us the link? If the game was released in multiple platforms, it makes harder to introduce because we add games for platforms, not multiplatform games unless sales information is discriminated. -- ReyBrujo 21:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The PSP section needs work

I may sound like a nag, but the PSP section is missing a lot of million sellers. For example, the Grand Theft Auto games...

And I do know that finding sources is hard, so I propose the regulars here should try their to find sources for PSP game sales. I'll help too, but my internet connection is kind of slow (.......)

7FlushSetzer 22:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Stealth Action category??

Should we even have a "Stealth Action" category here?

I mean, as far as i know, there is only one game that fits this criteria and it's Metal Gear. Either put it as an "action" game or as a "stealth" game, but this cross-category category should definitely NOT be there.

If we sub-detail ANY category, we could put any game there. Like let's say, Medieval shooter: Heretic Garden simulator: Viva Pinata

etc.

I think that Splinter Cell counts as a "Stealth Action" game too, so obviously there's a genre, the question is the games that are in it.

7FlushSetzer 19:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

VG Chartz

Can anyone tell me why the information that I put from VG Chartz was eliminated? I think it is reliable. Thanks SOAD KoRn 18:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Because Vgchartz is not reliable. Next time, look at the top of the page.

7FlushSetzer 21:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Could you tell which are the reliable ones? And by the way, I just want to say that I don't agree with you about VG but that's ok. Maybe it's a decision of the community, I hope. SOAD KoRn 21:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

There are no "reliable ones", really. Obviously, sites like Gamespot and IGN are reliable, but for others, judgment has to be used. That's why finding sources is so difficult.

7FlushSetzer 21:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

From the top of this talk page :

--Silver Edge 22:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thank you all for the info. SOAD KoRn 23:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Need for Speed Franchise

Hello,

The franchise list mentions Need For Speed: Underground. I think this is part of the Need For Speed franchise and therefore should contain sales of every need for speed game.

Grtz!

Robin.lemstra —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robin.lemstra (talk • contribs)

Gears of War

Dear Editors, one minute the sales for Gears of War is listed as exceeding 5 million, the next it's back to 3.7 million, why the revision? What's going on with this title? Take care. 72.49.194.69 21:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Joshua

Pac Man

Okay, we have a source conflict here. This page currently lists 10 million sold, basing this on an article written on ars technica where Pac Man was not the focus of the article (in other words, the author may not have researched the matter too deeply). High Score: The Illustrated History of Video Games also gives the 10 million figure, but this book is riddled with errors and is not generally reliable for facts and figures without some corroboration. On the other side, you have The Ultimate History of Video Games, which gives a 7 million figure. This book is also not perfect by any means, but is probably the most reputable video game history on the market (along with Phoenix: The Fall and Rise of Video Games). Also, another article at Ars Tehnica http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060901-7652.html by the same author as the source used for the ten million figure that was written a year later gives the seven million figure as well, casting serious doubt on the credibility of the sources. In these circumstances, 7 million makes more sense, and that number also seems intuitively more reasonable. All sources agree that there were 10 million Atari systems in circulation in 1982 and that Atari produced 12 million cartridges believing they could repeat the success the company had with Space Invaders, in which people bought the system to play the game. Considering the poor quality of the port and the general dissatisfaction, I find it hard to believe that Atari managed to sell as many copies as there were systems at the time (granted, some people may have bought systems to play the game, but that still seems like a pretty big success to move that many copies). Indrian 03:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• For whatever reason, this has not generated any response in the last 24 hours or so. I will give it another day or two, but if no one comments I am going to change Pac Man to seven million units sold with the proper references. Indrian 05:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• I can't believe that Pacman and ET sold over 1 million units if they were big failures and hell, they ruined Atari big time. But is it true that those 2 games really sold THAT many units even though they sucked bad?
  • Yes, they both sold over one million and Pac Man sold quite a bit more than that. Demand for both products was high because Pac Man was an insanely popular arcade game and ET was a very popular movie. Video game news did not travel as quickly back then as it does today, and lots of people bought the games before anyone new how bad they were. ET was still a monumental commercial failure since Atari only sold 1.5 million of 4 million shipped copies. Pac Man was a comparable success, but it failed to generate the increased demand for the VCS that Atari hoped it would. Indrian 08:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• This has been up for over three days now without a single comment, so as promised I have made the change from 10 million to 7 million based on the fact that Ultimate History is more reliable than High Score as a source and a more recent arstechnica article by the same author that gave the 10 million figure gives the seven million figure. Feedback is welcome here as always, but I would consider a revert of this change without discussion here to be in bad faith considering there was ample notice and opportunity to comment. Indrian 13:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Combination of Pokemon games

Why are games like Pokemon Red and Pokemon Blue being combined? Although they are similar, these are different titles were sold separately. Their combination would only be appropriate if they were sold combined, or if the games were identical. If no one disagrees, I'll separate them. --Teggles 03:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It's the same for the Nintendogs games. --Teggles 04:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed many times before with the agreement that they should be together. Zomic_13 05:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide some links to the discussion? It would seem as if they thought "the games are similar, therefore they're combined". --Teggles 08:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You'll have to look through the archives. And the games are the same. You may start out with different characters, but ultimately at the end they become the same. Zomic_13 15:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Everyone everywhere counts them as one, so why should this be any different —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.226.61 (talk) 19:15, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Pokemon Red and Pokemon Blue were essentially the same game, the only difference I'm aware of (after having beaten all of the core series except the recent DS one) was the random encounter tables. This is true for the entire series (though they became more divergent over time by adding different preprogrammed encounters), and is a salient feature of it. I'd leave them together. --70.89.247.201 04:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This discussion leaves out a very important point. From a gameplay perspective, these games are nearly identical, but from a sales perspective, lumping them together provides a distortion of the facts. These games did have subtle differences and several exclusive pokemon each. In a game series that emphasizes "catching them all" this means that many people will buy both games. Lumping these games together implies that Pokemon outsold SMB3 (the single best-selling non-bundled console game of all time), but did it really? If two versions of Super Mario 3 were available on the NES that only slightly differed from one another, I am sure that its sales would be greater by at least a third if they were lumped together. Red and Blue are two separate commercial products and should therefore be considered separate in terms of sales. As I side note, while I have not followed every last conversation on this page, the one time I remember this being brought up I recall just the opposite decision being reached (there certainly could have been a later discussion that I am not aware of). Indrian 05:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest going to WP:CVG to suggest a splitting. It is hard to believe, yes, but it is very likely Pokemon Red/Blue outsold Super Mario Bros 3 (note that European sales are not considered). And personally, they should be bundled together because, once both games were fully finished, they get almost the exact content (if not the exact one). Splitting them is just like splitting the sales of the Xbox 360 Core, Xbox 360 Premium and Xbox 360 Elite when reporting the sales of the consoles. If we do this for hardware, why not for software as well? -- ReyBrujo 01:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

But this seems a double standard. Are we counting rerelease figures for games like SMB3 on the Game Boy Advance in the original figures? What about Final Fantasy IV, which has already had remakes on two systems and will soon have a remake on another? Some of these remakes add a smidge new content, others add nothing. Should Super Mario AllStars and other compilations count as sales of the individual games? What about something like The King's Quest collection which just repackages all the games in a series together without changing anything at all? And then there is the WII virtual console, XBox Live and the like, where people can purchase games from old systems exactly as they first appeared. When a company releases two different commercial products, they should be treated separately. If the difference is a collectors edition vs. a standard edition released at (roughly) the same time it would be different because the content of the game is exactly the same and one will likely only buy one or the other. The Pokemon games are a completely different situation, however, because as products with some slightly different content, people bought both. Why are we also not lumping FireRed and LeafGreen in with Red/Blue? I realize there were enhancements, but once again when you get right down to it they are the same games with better graphics and a few new features and a bonus area to get some missing GBA pokemon. It seems to me Red/Blue, Diamond/Pearl, etc. are being signled out for special treatment. Indrian 04:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

However, those re-releases are held in different platforms. They count towards the franchise, but not towards the game in a single platform. As I said, if you want, go to the WikiProject for further discussion. By the way, if the top selling game were Halo or Final Fantasy after adding up multiple releases, people would accept it ;-) -- ReyBrujo 17:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I cannot speak for "people," only for myself. If you have numbers saying Pokemon Red sold the most copies I would have no problem with that. If you have numbers saying Pokemon Blue sold the most copies, I would have no problem with that. I have seen neither. Indrian 04:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

FLC??

This is one of the most amazing list articles out there. Shouldn't it be an FL?--SidiLemine 12:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Shipped games

Should games that have shipped over 1 million copies and franchises with over 10 million copies shipped be listed here? Currently, there are a few titles listed with the number of copies shipped, so should they be included or removed? --Silver Edge 17:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

What's the problem?--SidiLemine 18:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is the number of games shipped does not mean the number of games sold. --Silver Edge 18:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I would vote to have them removed, I agree with Silver Edge. 72.49.194.69 02:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC) Joshua

Agreed. They should not be on the list. Zomic_13 03:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Except maybe for games with sold numbers unknown... I know it's useful for music articles as some countries don't really count sales.--SidiLemine 10:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Duke Nukem 3D

Ya know, I'm really surprised the title 'Duke Nukem 3D' is not mentioned in the PC sales at all. I was a youngster when it was released back in 1996 but I remember it selling out at CompUSA and I remember it being a HUGE hit for a long time to come. Is there no sales info for this title or what? Surely it must have sold at least a million copies? 72.49.194.69 20:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC) Joshua

I found a source and added it. I think we are missing more games there.--Svetovid 02:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Now thinking about it, it does not specify that those units were PC version, and the game was on other platforms too :/--Svetovid 03:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

True, DN3D was multi-platform, I cannot even remember how many platforms it was released for, not to mention in mobile form. 72.49.194.69 07:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC) Joshua

And this source (Atari) says: "the Duke Nukem franchise created by 3D Realms has generated for the Company unit sales to date in excess of two million," and "Company sold...over one million units worldwide of Duke Nukem for the PlayStation and N64."
Talk about confusing.--Svetovid 10:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Opening Sales

Does anyone else think it would be interesting to include opening week sales? Or pre-orders or something of the like ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.252.195.185 (talk) 09:08, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

pre-orders - NO; A small chart of opening-week sales would be interesting though.--Svetovid 10:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Those are interesting ideas, but the data to make the charts would be hard to find. If you (or anyone else) thinks this is a good idea, try collecting some data and making an example table. We can then discuss whether to add it or not. Zomic_13 05:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Top Selling Games

Why are there no European figures incorporated into the numbers of copies sold for each game? This would render the total sold figures inaccurate. For example:

1. Pokémon Red, Blue and Green (Game Boy - 20.08 million approximately, 10.23 million in Japan, 9.85 million in US) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.209.203 (talk) 20:46, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Dear sir. European figures are hard or impossible to come by. Groups like NPD only evaluated North American sales, which leaves the greater part of the gaming world (namely Asia, Europe and Australia) out of the picture. One source we can rely on are company press releases which give sales figures worldwide rather than continental. For example, I added that the Sims 2 has currently sold over 13 million units, this figure includes Europe, the citation was from an EA press release about Bon Voyage, the upcoming expansion. That is all. 72.49.194.69 01:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC) Joshua

As stated above, sales figures for Europe / PAL regions are very hard to get. Sales figures for Japan are perhaps the easiest to get since two different trackers release figures on a weekly basis. North American sales figures, tracked by the NPD, are released on a monthly basis. European sales figures? Pretty much never unless in some cases when the game reaches a special milestone (such as 1 million sold). Zomic_13 05:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Gran Turismo 4 should be somewhere on the best selling PS2 games.

It has sold almost 8.79 million copies yet it isn't anywhere on the list. Here is a reference.

http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/list.html--Dominicanboy149 21:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

  Did it myself.--Dominicanboy149 16:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Game & Watch

Ummm the entire Game & watch series sold 43 million. with 13 games. But it's handheld games. They are video or somewhat. Should this be added?Also Game & watch is by nintendo--Hitamaru 15:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide a source? If you can, then I/we/you can add it. Zomic_13 17:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I found it on the Smash bros trophy xD! it said 43 million units sold with 13 games. Look at the Classic or Adventure trophy for Mr Game And Watch.--Hitamaru 00:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Updates

Someone seriously needs to update the amount of units most games have sold worldwide, some are even missing games that sold over 1 million units on a certain console. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.23.177 (talk) 05:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

If you can find reliable sources, you are more than welcome to update it. --Silver Edge 05:22, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Halo 2 sales

I was jumping around and noticed people specify Halo 2 sales at 9.2m. However, the reference is from over two years ago. In other words, Halo 2 sold 9.2 million in a year (released in 2004, right?) and then sold nothing until now. I smell something wrong with that reference (either the date is wrong, or it is a fake reference). Or, the article stated franchise sales instead of Halo 2 sales (if Halo sold around 5 million by that time, it would put Halo 2 sales at around 4 million, which would be much more plausible). I would like to add a disputed tag and the old 8m reference—so that it reads Halo 2 (9.2 million,^{[1] disputed} 8 million verified)^[2]—. Anyone disagrees? My rationale is that newer articles (like our old reference) state Halo 2 sold 8 million only. How could references 2 year newer than another state it sold less? -- ReyBrujo 04:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your proposed disputed tag. I also noticed this inconsistency when Halo 2's sales number was changed here, so to try to verify the magazine source, I left a message on User:Surachit's discussion page, who had listed himself on Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Magazines as having that specific issue of GamePro which is used as the 9.2 million reference. Surachit has not yet replied. About the date of the reference (February 2005), if you take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Magazines#GamePro, you can see that the date is correct, and the rest of the citation appears to be correct (don't know about the page number though). The 9.2 million is most likely the number of Halo franchise sales as of February 2005, since Halo 2 was first released on November 9 2004, it is impossible that Halo 2 sold 9.2 million copies in the time between November 9 2004 and February 2005 (about 3 months time). --Silver Edge 07:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Should be noted that the article quoted in the main Halo 2 article... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=ah.zkXSTEhuo&refer=news references 6.5 million since launch, and its dated Sept 25 2007. Seems to be a bit of a discrepancy between articles. Onehotalchemist 01:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

And the prior reference used in this article and the Halo 2 article stated 8 million sold, and that is dated May 9 2006. http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/09/technology/e3_microsoft/index.htm --Silver Edge 01:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

And another recent article quoting 6.3 million http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20070925-9999-1n25halo.html It seems odd that 8 million would be quoted nearly a year prior to the most recent numbers. Although the most recent articles are probably using old numbers, it is somewhat odd. --Onehotalchemist 02:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The 6.3 million stated in that article is the Halo 2 US sales number, not worldwide sales number. --Silver Edge 04:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Well we can probably agree that the 9.2 million from the February 2005 GamePro magazine is for the Halo franchise and not Halo 2. --Silver Edge 02:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The sales information comes from Patcher apparently, an analyst. I believe the CNN Money link is the better for this issue. -- ReyBrujo 02:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

In the Halo (series) article, Halo 2 is stated to have sold over 8 million copies, with the two sources being: http://www.smh.com.au/news/biztech/prepare-for-allout-war/2007/08/30/1188067256196.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1 dated August 30 2007, and it is interesting that the second source is the February 2005 issue of GamePro that was used as the source for 9.2 million, but is being used as a source for 8 million in the Halo (series) article. --Silver Edge 10:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Halo 3 sales

Could we assume that, if 1.4m people logged to play online, then it sold at least 1.4m? -- ReyBrujo 01:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

We can assume whatever we want; however, it's still original research. Just wait for official numbers.--Svetovid 02:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, was thinking in a way to prevent the reverts we have been having lately. -- ReyBrujo 02:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Under the section by genre Halo 3 is listet as best selling FPS as "FPS - Halo 3 (Xbox - 10 million)" halo 3 isn't sold for the xbox but the xbox360 and since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_generation_era says that the 360 has sold 8.9 million i think that 10 million copies sold is alot more than what is resonable posible for the 360. -- LyngeP 16:56, 29 September 2007 (CET)

That was vandalism and has been reverted. Zomic_13 19:12, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I have re addes that Halo 3 has sold more than 4.2 million copies and have found a link from Halo 3 (6 on there site). I think that is a resonable citing. Thank you.Bizub4 01:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but analysts are guessed and cannot be used in articles about sales. -- ReyBrujo 17:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

2.48M is the figure that I read for first day sales. I think it is safe to say it broke 1 million. 75.21.132.221 03:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Where did you read that it sold 2.48 million? --Silver Edge 03:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure (as probably all of us are) that Halo 3 has sold more than 1 million copies. However, we just can add the game without a source. As Silver Edge asked, do you have a source for the 2.48 million figure? Zomic13 04:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It was revised to 2.34, but the source is http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=17607 75.21.132.221 20:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is still an estimate and cannot be used. -Zomic13 21:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I currently work for Barnes and Noble and our copies sold hit the one million mark in the 1st 48 hours and if you need any futher proof reffer to this http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sun_halosep30,0,960136.story —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.78.143 (talk) 10:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC) Markbillybob 10:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what working for Barnes and Nobles has to do with anything, but that article states nothing about copies sold. -Zomic13 21:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The article says and i qoute:"Microsoft Corp. last week said its "Halo 3" video game rang up a record-smashing $170 million in retail sales within its first 24 hours in U.S. stores" ,well that makes over 2.8 million copies sold!Markbillybob 05:36, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

That is still not a definite number. For one, you calculated it yourself, which is considered original research. Second, there were a few versions of Halo 3 at different prices. The number of each sold impacts both the sales and the number of copies sold. Finally, that does not include online sales. Official Halo 3 sales figures will be out soon. Just be patient. When official numbers are released, then please add them. -Zomic13 05:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

BE PATIENT! OFFICIAL HALO 3 NUMBERS WILL BE RELEASED SOON. Estimates, shipping figures, and calculations from the retail value of the games sold simply cannot be used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zomic13 (talk • contribs)

[2]: that's something like 5 million copies. and halo franchise reached 20 million copies62.101.126.228 18:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but there aren't still numbers, just stuff around it. Guess the numbers were disappointed and they are waiting to hit the 4m people said they were going to rack on day one ;) -- ReyBrujo 18:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Why does it say "as many as"? Is there a need for that?--David13579 19:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It is because the source is just guessing the number. There isn't a real factual basis for it, other than adding/subtracting rough numbers. Really, it shouldn't even qualify. -Zomic13 21:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Splitting of article issue

This article was split up before any discussion. Also based on Wikipedia:Article Size#A rule of thumb concerning the size of lists: "These guidelines apply somewhat less to lists or disambiguation pages, and naturally do not apply to redirects." --Silver Edge 00:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Woah! What happened here??? This seems like it is going to be a mess to undo... This really needed to be discussed.... -Zomic_13 01:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

A huge edit like this should of been discussed. Plus some of the new articles are missing game titles and using old numbers for units sold, since the editor reverted back to revisions that are dated August 17 2007. --Silver Edge 01:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the information was old indeed, that is why I didn't like it, but was working on fixing that when suddenly everything was reverted without discussion again. -- ReyBrujo 01:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Nor you should just revert everything without discussing... -- ReyBrujo 01:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, since it was wrongly done without discussing, reverting is ok without discussing. -Zomic_13 01:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems User:R9tgokunks does not want to discuss this, and instead reverts all changes that he disagrees with, stating it is vandalism and "It is mandatory that the article be split according to Wikipedia: Article Size." Where exactly does it say it is mandatory in Wikipedia: Article Size? Well for lists anyway. --Silver Edge 02:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. No where does it say that it is mandatory (especially for lists). What it does clearly state is that a discussion should take place before splitting articles. -Zomic_13 02:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

"There is no need for haste. Discuss the overall topic structure with other editors."

I have fully protected the article. I also notice that nobody contacted R9tgokunks to tell him his change was reverted. Also, don't post warnings nor qualify changes as "vandalism" when they obviously are not. -- ReyBrujo 02:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Note, if you are referring to my revert message I was not referring to R9tgokunk but to Bizbub4 for his vandalism. Also, I did post on R9's talk page about this. Zomic13 02:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The message was for all the ones involved. And yes, you did post on R9's talk page, 40 minutes after you have reverted his original split and you have reverted each other already once. -- ReyBrujo 02:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Oracle of Seasons and Ages

Should we combine the sales of both games? We do for Pokémon games, so why are these games different? -- ReyBrujo 01:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages are technically seperate games: the only real difference between the diferent 'versions' of Pokemon (Red/Blue/Green/Yellow, Gold/Silver/Crystal, Ruby/Sapphire/Fire Red/Leaf Green/Emerald and Diamond/Pearl) are the Pokemon you can capture; the game itself is the same. HalfShadow 21:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Splitting of the Article Discussion

Since no discussion was previously initiated before the article was split up, I will be starting one. Should this article be split up, and if so, how?

No - Personally, I don't feel that the article should be split up. However, if it were to be split up I feel that it should only be split between PC games and Console games. It was too split up earlier. Zomic13 03:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

If PC and console games were to split up, the franchise list would have to be split into its own article, since the franchise list has both PC and console franchises, also some franchises are on both platforms. --Silver Edge 04:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I believe the article should not be split up. In its current state it provides good coverage of best-selling video games all in one article. It could possibly be a featured list candidate, as suggested in the FLC?? section above. --Silver Edge 04:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

As of right now, the article's size is at 98,332 bytes, but if some of the unnecessary spaces in the citation templates were removed, wouldn't that bring the size of the article down a little and help make the article load a little faster for people with slow internet connections?

For example:
<ref name="arspacman">{{cite web | url=http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060901-7652.html | title=EA's Madden 2007 sells briskly, but are games gaining on movies? | author=Jeremy Reimer | date=2006-09-06 | accessdate=2007-08-09 | publisher=[[Ars Technica]]}}</ref>
would become:
<ref name="arspacman">{{cite web |url=http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060901-7652.html |title=EA's Madden 2007 sells briskly, but are games gaining on movies? |author=Jeremy Reimer |date=2006-09-06 |accessdate=2007-08-09 |publisher=[[Ars Technica]]}}</ref>
--Silver Edge 04:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, I feel many of the sources could be combined. There are sources out there that state the sales numbers for multiple games, yet multiple sources are used instead of the one. Zomic13 05:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, split it up. I think there should be a master list and then break it down into smaller lists as many ways as desired. Lists of video games is a perfect example.

If a complete list is feasible in 32K, and could be useful, go for a complete list. Otherwise, you need to make sure section editing is enabled or you may want to build a selected list.

— Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Selection_criteria, last lines

While I understand this is already a selected list, this one grand list just isn't selective enough. Elanna-Rose 19:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I am unprotecting the article, but keep it whole until this has been discussed. I will drop a note at WP:CVG to get more feedback. -- ReyBrujo 00:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protect

Should the article be semi-protected? Majority of IP edits to this article are either vandalism or unsourced changes to the numbers. The article was semi-protected prior to the edit war over splitting the article, so shouldn't the semi-protection be restored? Or at the very least we should add a {{notice}} to the top of the article, stating that game titles should not be added and sales numbers should not be changed without citing a reliable source. --Silver Edge 03:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I requested that the article be semi-protected when a lot of IP's kept adding Halo 3 (and protection was granted), but then ReyBrujo removed the protection when the article was split. Because the article was unsplit, it *should* still be protected under the previous protection request. I would request that the article be re-semiprotected. - Zomic13 05:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Oblivion

Why isn't Oblivion even mentioned on the 360 list? http://www.elderscrolls.com/news/press_011807.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.184.113.167 (talk) 21:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion was previously listed in both the Xbox 360 and PC lists, but the game was removed from the Xbox 360 list because the source it used (the same source you mentioned) indicates combined sales numbers from the Xbox 360 and Windows PC version of the game.

From http://www.elderscrolls.com/news/press_011807.htm: "Released in March 2006 for Xbox 360 videogame and entertainment system from Microsoft and Windows, Oblivion sold more than three million units in 2006." --Silver Edge 01:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

We could create a "Multi-platform" section for games (like The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, and possibly BioShock) that only has sources that indicate combined sales numbers over multiple platforms, instead of removing those games from the list entirely. --Silver Edge 07:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Definition of an "Acceptable Source"

The more experienced editors and those of us who edit this list a lot know what type of source is acceptable and what is not. But it is clear that many people don't. I am proposing that we create a set definition for acceptable sources that can be clearly posted for all to see and referenced easily to settle any disputes or in revisions. Below is my draft of what I believe would make a good definition. Please feel free to add to it or edit it as necessary. - Zomic13 04:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Definition of an "Acceptable Source"

• Must clearly state a figure for units sold. Estimates of units sold and figures for units shipped are not allowed.
• Sales figures must be for the specified console only. Figures for sales including multiple platforms are not allowed.
• Must be from a reliable source, such as a developer/publisher, sales tracking group (such as NPD), or major gaming news site. VGChats/z is not allowed.

Then we should remove the Kingdom Hearts franchise from the list ;-) -- ReyBrujo 22:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Wii Sports

Wouldn't be unfair to put Wii Sports at the number 1 list on the wii, because people are always getting it when they buy the wii (cept in japan), so naturally it will surpass any other game whether people want it or not. Sergeant K 16:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Individual sections aren't "ranked". Only the Top 20 Games section is, which is why Wii Sports and other bundled games are not included in the list. Individual sections merely show the number of copies sold, regardless of whether a game was bundled or not. -Zomic13 02:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

This list currently contains data primarily about console games created since 1995."

I think we should removed this. Just look at the data. The NES section alone contains 47 games (all of which came out between 1983-1992). The Atari 2600 section, which came out in the 1970's, has seven games. While the data for earlier sections might not be as complete as more recently released games, it is still significant. -Zomic13 02:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Halo 3 has sold 3.3 million copies in the U.S!!!

If you want to be exact on how many copies Halo 3 has sold in the U.S it is 3.3 million. http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/halo3/news.html?sid=6181307 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolguy681 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I have updated it. --Silver Edge 01:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Grand Theft Auto figures

I found an article on Factiva which gave updated figures for a number of games published by Take-Two, including:

1. Grand Theft Auto 3 (12 million)
2. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (15 million)
3. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (20 million)
4. Grand Theft Auto franchise (all platforms) (65 million)
5. Midnight Club franchise (11 million; last iteration 6 million)
6. Civilization franchise (8 million; last iteration 1.7 million)

All units provided were sold, not shipped. I checked Google but couldn't find a non-subscription version of the article. I updated the figures on the article anyway, just thought I'd mention it here because there's no url to verify it. The title and date of the source are referenced in the article (Take-Two Interactive Software at Piper Jaffray Second Annual London Consumer Conference, 26 Sept 2007). --Tntnnbltn 17:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a direct link, even if it requires subscription? -- ReyBrujo 17:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The Factiva database doesn't give direct links. I tried searching the Voxant website (they provided the article) but didn't find anything. --Tntnnbltn 17:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Scratch that -- I found a webcast of the conference. [3] I'll add it to the reference. --Tntnnbltn 18:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Super Smash Bros. franchise (10.89 million approximately)?

Where does the "10.89 million approximately" sales number for the Super Smash Bros. franchise come from? It uses a GameDaily BIZ article, The Magic Box - Japanese Game Chart, and The Magic Box - US Game Chart as sources. Isn't getting a few sources and adding them all up not allowed for the "Franchises" section? --Silver Edge 04:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I remember that, someone added up the sales of all Smash Bros games and put it there. Personally, the franchises section should have only company-verified information, that is, official information stating "the xxx franchise sold over yyy" like all the other numbers. -- ReyBrujo 04:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Wii Series

Under "Franchises", the Wii Series is behind several franchises it has sold more then. I'd fix it, but I'm new to the site.

MontanaHatchet 07:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean...currently there are only two released games in the Wii Series: Wii Sports and Wii Play. Both games are included in the value. Wii Fit will become the third starting in December, followed by Wii Music and possibly Wii Chess. -Zomic13 08:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, come on. Here's what I mean.

1. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon (14 million)
2. Disney series (13.2 million)
3. Metroid (13 million)
4. Wii Series (16.07 million)
5. Midnight Club (11 million)
6. Lord of the Rings (10 million)

MontanaHatchet 09:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean. I removed it because of the same reason I removed Smash Bros series: we need a reference stating "The Wii Series has sold xxx units" or we will just begin gluing together games to create "new" series. -- ReyBrujo 12:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Switch to table format

I suggest a switch to a sortable table format. This way you can sort the table by sales, alphabetically, platform or genre. Here is an example of a sortable table. SharkD 21:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggested a while back switching to a table format for individual sections, but it was dismissed. A giant table like that is definitely not a good idea. It would make it near impossible to edit and it isn't that great for viewing titles on individual systems. -Zomic13 21:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That's too bad. BTW, switching to a table format would make it easier to enter the data into a spreadsheet (useful for some). SharkD 11:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

GTA sales

82.3.161.76 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) reverted the changes made by another user (the ones stating GTA SA sold 20 millions according to a web presentation made by Take 2). I am restoring these now (will merge changes done after his modifications), but could someone check the cast to see if it is indeed 20 million? -- ReyBrujo 01:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've listened to the webcast and it says quote:

“ Grand Theft Auto III launched in 2001 and sold over 12 million units. We then shipped another sequel in 2002 which sold over 15 million units, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City. And then in 2004 we shipped Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, which sold a remarkable 20 million units ... the entire franchise has sold over 65 million units...

...Midnight Club ... the brand in total has sold over 11 million units and just the last iteration of this title has sold over 6 million units...

Civilization ... the franchise has sold over 8 million units, the last game sold over a million seven copies...

”

I'll add the quote to the reference. The webcast also mentions that BioShock has shipped over 1.5 million units for the PC and Xbox. I don't know which Midnight Club game she is mentioning: "...Midnight Club ... the brand in total has sold over 11 million units and just the last iteration of this title has sold over 6 million units..." Does she mean Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition, Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition Remix, or the 2 of them combined? --Silver Edge 12:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! -- ReyBrujo 16:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, she didn't specify if the sales numbers were for a specific platform or across multiple platforms, so the sales numbers for GTA:3, GTA:VC, and GTA:SA might be for PS2, PC, and Xbox combined, not just PS2. --Silver Edge 06:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh... is that so? Hmm... Well, you were the one to listen to the webcast, you decide. -- ReyBrujo 11:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

When she talked about the GTA games, she never mentioned any particular platform. It is most likely those sales numbers for the three GTA games are the PS2, PC, and Xbox versions combined, so having them listed under the PlayStation 2 section with those numbers is misleading. --Silver Edge 03:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, then we can move them back to the previous numbers, but keeping the franchise number at 65m, which has been confirmed. -- ReyBrujo 03:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

(indent) The previous source for the GTA:SA sales number, indicates the sales number is for the PS2 version only, since the source is dated March 3, 2005, which is before GTA:SA was released for the PC (June 2005). But the GTA:3 and GTA:VC sales numbers in their previous source, might not be for the PS2 version only, as it is dated October 27, 2004, and by then GTA:3 and GTA:VC had already been released on the PC. In the source it says, quote:
"For starters, there's the overwhelming success of the previous two games. "GTA 3" (released in 2001) sold 5.4 million copies. "GTA: Vice City" (released the following year) sold 6.1 million, according to The NPD Group, which tracks video game sales in North America. Take Two said the games have sold 11 million and 13 million copies globally." --Silver Edge 04:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... well, we could start by rolling back the GTA:SA values then, since we are sure it is for only PS2. As for GTA:3 and VC, we could try to find an even older reference. We can also leave a note stating it is not clear whether the amount refers only to PS2 sales or PC ones as well. -- ReyBrujo 02:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, let's do that. --Silver Edge 04:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

So should GTA:3 and GTA:VC be reverted back to their previous source or just revert only GTA:SA? --Silver Edge 17:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I would say revert them all until this is clarified, or add a note that the current reference may include games in other platforms as well. -- ReyBrujo 02:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted GTA:SA back to its previous source, which is PS2 version sales only, and added a "may include PC and Xbox versions" note to GTA:3 and GTA:VC. --Silver Edge (talk) 04:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Wii Sports.

Is Wii Sports using the number of Wii consoles sold in all regions, except Japan, as its source for its sales number? --Silver Edge 02:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be easier / clearer just to combine the two figures into one. Thoughts? -Zomic13 02:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I prefer them separated since you can confirm each amount individually. When I see something like (4 million)^[1][2] I automatically suppose references 1 and 2 each confirm the 4 million, not that one confirms 3 million in US and another, 1 million in Japan. A reference confirms a fact, and having two references neither confirming the amount is misleading. -- ReyBrujo 02:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

New Wii and DS games sales

Nintendo released new numbers of Wii and DS games... http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2007/071026e.pdf I'm not good in updating... Can someone do it? (Pekinho 14:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC))

I love how they have started releasing supplementary sales figures with each report. I'm updating it right now, thanks for the find! -Zomic13 15:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Should RE4 Wii be included?

Hrmmmm....

Shipped is not exactly equal to sold. Something like 5 million (shipped) would be fair because no matter the shipment, it's still likely that the game is a million seller. Then again, I'm not an expert on this article. If shipped equals sold, then call me baffled.

MontanaHatchet 07:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The terms "shipped" and "sold" are used very interchangeably (too much so). Depending on the source you read, one article may say shipped while the other says sold. They do mean different things, but often times it can be near impossible to tell which is the case. It can be very annoying, actually. -Zomic13 07:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... maybe we should wait until they include the title at their platinum list? -- ReyBrujo 01:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

What should we do about the other games on the list that have figures for units shipped instead of sold? -Zomic13 01:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I have always wanted to remove them, including the Kingdom Hearts franchise, but preferred to wait (I hoped that the games were to break that difference between shipped and sold in just a month or so, but some are just delaying too much). -- ReyBrujo 02:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

3DO & NEO GEO

I don't see those consoles in the list... Why is that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.200.157.177 (talk) 09:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

They didn't have any million sellers. Simple.

MontanaHatchet —Preceding comment was added at 06:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Or, if they did have, we couldn't find references for those games. -- ReyBrujo 01:32, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Xbox 360 picture

I think the Xbox 360 picture should be updated here, as the one on the Xbox 360 page was. The picture isn't very good, and the xbox 360 no longer comes with the media remote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.165.64.234 (talk) 00:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Mario Kart franchise

I found a reference that stated the franchise sold 12m units in North America. I added the item to the franchise list because it is not clear if the Mario franchise includes it, and because adding up all the Mario games without the Mario Kart ones gives around 195 million, pretty close to our old reference of 195m and the new one of 200m (we are still missing numbers for some games that have only Japanese sales). -- ReyBrujo 03:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Street Fighter, 25 or 27?

While Capcom official list states it is 25 million, I found an old press release via Google cache which stated 27 million (here is the Wayback link). Should we keep the 25, or switch to the 27 figure? -- ReyBrujo 03:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

If there are two reliable sources stating two different numbers, should the newer source be used (25 million) or the source with the higher sales number (27 million)? --Silver Edge 22:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, let's keep the old for now, maybe they have overestimated their own numbers in the past, especially since their current number is lower. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise

The article about Yu-Gi-Oh! states that at Comic Con 2006 Konami revealed the franchise sold 17.5 million games. Unfortunately there is no reference other than what it is said there, and searching around shows everyone picked the information from Wikipedia. Can anyone find a better reference for it? -- ReyBrujo 03:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the best reference I found was this one from 2002, 7.5m. -- ReyBrujo 03:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Top Gun NES

This site says Top Gun for NES was the first major third party game, with over 3 million games sold. Should we add it? -- ReyBrujo 19:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Would that website be considered a reliable source? --Silver Edge 22:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure, but it is always hard to get numbers for the earliest releases. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Pokemon 1st gen: missing European sale figures?

For the data on the number of combined sales of the Pokemon Red, Blue and Green, why hasn't sales from other parts of the world been counted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MechPlasma (talk • contribs) 17:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Since publishers are stingy with their data, we have to find other reliable sources. Sometimes all that is found is US data -- but if you have another source for world wide data, please share! -Quasipalm (talk) 03:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

God of War

Here is a GameSpot feature stating 1.5m sold for the first God of War. Are these features reliable? I think so, because the writer is apparently a staff member of GameSpot, but would like a second opinion. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it is reliable. --Silver Edge (talk) 08:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yahoo article about best selling games

Yahoo published a list some time ago with the best selling video games. The order is pretty much the one we have, but they had Pókemon and Mario franchise numbers updated. I am tempted to add the list to the list of media that used us as source, especially because the order is the same and includes Tetris, which it used to be omitted in the lists until we included it in ours. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't it need to mention Wikipedia or the List of best-selling video games article before it is added to Wikipedia:Wikipedia as a press source? Also, did you notice at the beginning of the Yahoo list it mentions Halo 2 selling 9 million? "Halo 2 rests at 9 million" --Silver Edge (talk) 09:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It passes the duck test. I haven't updated the Halo 2 numbers because I still believe the information from this list is based in the information found in the article. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 11:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh right, when that Yahoo list was published (28 September 2007), the Halo 2 sales number in this article was at 9.2 million with the source that couldn't be verified. --Silver Edge (talk) 16:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

video-games-survey.com

I stumbled across this website today, which has two pages of software sales...

• http://www.video-games-survey.com/software.htm
• http://www.video-games-survey.com/jap_software_sales.htm

The figures themselves are circa 2003, so many of them are already superseded by what we've got now. Still, there might be some figures which can be added. I didn't go through the list in detail however because I don't know if it would pass as a reliable source, so I thought I'd just mention it here instead. --Tntnnbltn 21:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I remember checking them before. I suggest making a list of new titles we could get from there, and then try to find a better reference (which is what I usually do when finding data from sources that may not be considered reliable). -- ReyBrujo 22:10, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Citation template consistency

I noticed my changes to the citation templates were changed on the basis of consistency. (Didn't want to step on anyone's toes.) Here is the changes I was going to implement throughout all the templates (before I got distracted after Microsoft):

• The author term is meant to be written in the order of Last Name, First Name (as described at Template:Cite web). Rather than going through and changing every example of "author=John Doe" to "author=Doe, John", I thought I'd be less POV to use the "first=John|last=Doe" and leave it to the template to render correctly. An existing discussion about this topic has been carried out at Template talk:Cite news#Author attribute (different template, but the same principle applies). --Tntnnbltn 12:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

• Wouldn't using the "first" and "last" parameters instead of the "author" parameter make the article, which is currently 101 kilobytes in size, even larger than it already is? The parameters "first=|last=" is a combined 12 characters, while "author=" is 7 characters. --Silver Edge (talk) 20:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• Template:Cite press release should be used instead of cite web for press releases (that's pretty obvious). There is a slight rendering difference between the two...

Template cite web produces:

"EA and Jostens Introduce "Ring Of A Champion" to Madden NFL 08" (PDF). Electronic Arts. 2007-07-16. Retrieved 2007-12-03.

Template cite press release produces:

"EA and Jostens Introduce "Ring Of A Champion" to Madden NFL 08" (PDF) (Press release). Electronic Arts. 2007-07-16. Retrieved 2007-12-03.

Using cite web is already causing problems for press releases hosted on third-party websites. Examples are:

1. Yukiyoshi Ike Sato (2006-10-30). "Eidos Celebrates with Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Anniversary". GameSpot. Retrieved 2006-11-29.
2. "Backyard Hockey DS ships to retailers today". GameSpot. 2007-10-02. Retrieved 2007-11-10.
3. "Star Wars Battlefront: Renegade Squadron sends PSP system owners to the front". GameSpot. 2007-05-10. Retrieved 2007-11-11.
4. "Spyro the Dragon to Scorch Wendy's Restaurants This Fall". Yahoo! Finance. 2007-10-12. Retrieved 2007-10-22.
5. "Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance Sells More than 2 Million Units Worldwide". GameZone. 2003-07-08. Retrieved 2006-11-27.
6. "Konami's Frogger and Castlevania Nominated for Walk of Game Star". Konami. 2005-10-11. Retrieved 2007-07-14.
7. "Electronic Arts Signs U.S. Women's Soccer Star Julie Foudy To Commentate For FIFA 2000: Major League Soccer Game". Electronic Arts. 1999-09-08. Retrieved 2007-11-11.

In the above citations, there is inconsistency with the publisher field. In the first five references, the hosting website (GameSpot, Yahoo! Finance, Gamezone) is treated as the publisher, but in the last two examples, the issuer of the press release (Konami, Electronic Arts) is written instead of the website host. (This problem doesn't apply for press releases hosted on the company's own website).

[Also, Yukiyoshi Ike Sato was not the author of the first press release. I'll go fix that now]

Changing the citation templates to Cite press release fixes this problem; it requires the issuer of the press release to be entered under as the publisher. Using Cite press release, this is what the citations would look like:

1. "Eidos Celebrates with Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Anniversary" (Press release). Eidos Interactive. 2006-10-30. Retrieved 2007-12-03.
2. "Backyard Hockey DS ships to retailers today" (Press release). Humongous. 2007-10-02. Retrieved 2007-12-03.
3. "Star Wars Battlefront: Renegade Squadron sends PSP system owners to the front" (Press release). LucasArts. 2007-05-10. Retrieved 2007-12-03.
4. "Spyro the Dragon to Scorch Wendy's Restaurants This Fall" (Press release). Sierra Entertainment. 2007-10-12. Retrieved 2007-12-03.
5. "Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance Sells More than 2 Million Units Worldwide" (Press release). Midway Games. 2003-07-08. Retrieved 2007-12-03.
6. "Konami's Frogger and Castlevania Nominated for Walk of Game Star" (Press release). Konami. 2005-10-11. Retrieved 2007-12-03.
7. "Electronic Arts Signs U.S. Women's Soccer Star Julie Foudy To Commentate For FIFA 2000: Major League Soccer Game" (Press release). Electronic Arts. 1999-09-08. Retrieved 2007-12-03.

Not only is this more informative (it distinguishes between actual articles/press releases and shows who the actual publisher is), it would give consistency to the third-party hosted press releases, as well as consistency with first-party hosted press releases under the same template. --Tntnnbltn 12:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with the {{cite press release}} template. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no further objections with the usage of the cite press release template. --Silver Edge (talk) 20:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Half-Life / Steam Games

The sells on the Half-Life Series are highly doubtful! I don't know exactly the correct sells but Half-Life 1 alone was sold more than 10 Million times if I remember correctly and the sheer mass of steam purchases and retail boxes from both publishers (EA and Vivendi) made me wonder if the number of 4 Million Units for Half-Life 2 may be correct. "December 22, 2005" is the date of Half-Life 2 sells data source and the game was only a year out then and started new on EA back then. 87.167.46.183 18:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

360 Elder Scrolls

This definitely shouldn't be listed if, as the article states, it includes PC titles. Four million were sold, but for all we know there could've been 3 million PC sales and one million 360 sales. I don't think a stat that unreliable should be put on a list of bestselling games ordered by what has sold most and what has sold least. Titan124 (talk) 01:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The same happened with Bioshock, which were put, removed and now put again (or so I think). I don't have any problem in removing them or keeping them with a note stating it includes PC, Xbox 360 and PS3 numbers (which may encourage others to look for individual numbers). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

(indent) Or we could create a "Multi-platform" section for games where the only sources available are ones that indicate combined sales figures over multiple platforms, which is the case for games that were released simultaneously on multiple platforms (The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and BioShock for example). Also games in the Multi-platform section would not be listed in any other platform section, this way a game wouldn't be listed in two different platform sections and the previously mentioned games won't be ranked with games that have sales figures for only that certain platform. For example:

== Multi-platform ==
=== Xbox 360 and PC ===

• The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (3 million)
• BioShock (1.5 million)

--Silver Edge (talk) 20:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

But then we would make the list much bigger, especially with EA games (basically every single EA game would be listed there, according to their press releases they get around 20 titles selling more than a million copies). I would prefer having a second "draft" page, at Talk:List of best-selling video games/upcoming for example, tracking titles and franchises nearing the lowest level for entry (including multiplatform titles). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Europe/Rest of World

Why is it only Japan and US that is included? Most gaming sales lists have a third/fourth section for the rest of the world and/or Europe. By simply adding US + Japan totals, you leave out China, Europe, South America, etc., and get a very unreliable statistic. There are sites out there that give you total sales for each region, so there really is no reason for it.Titan124 (talk) 01:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Check some post above here. I am from South America, and would love numbers from down here, unfortunately such numbers are not that easy to come by. While Media-Create, Famitsu and NPD release numbers from time to time, Chart Trak doesn't, which makes it pretty hard to track them down. As an example, just try to find the numbers of any game released in Europe. Most times we include a 3-number reference (Japan, Europe and USA), adding the numbers up for an approximate total. However, companies later release numbers of the total worldwide, and we replace the three numbers with that single one. For old games like Pokémon Red, we have Japanese and USA numbers, but we cannot find European ones (which are likely to be in 10m or more). Lacking Europe numbers is not because we don't want them, but because they are very, very hard to obtain. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Super Mario Bros

in the nintendo NES section, it says super mario bros has sold over 40 million copies. then, in the bottom of the article, the best selling games of all time, its not on the list for best selling consle games of all time. is this because super mario bros wasn't a console game? what other consoles what it released on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.219.230 (talk • contribs)

Hi there! Super Mario Bros is the best selling game with over 40 million units sold. However, the top 20 console game section lists the best selling games that were not originally bundled. Wii Fit would not make that list either, because originally it was bundled, same as Tetris for Game Boy and many other games. Hope that explains the difference. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Mobile games

Checking around I found this link where a game mobile franchise sold 9 million units. While it would not make our franchise list, I was thinking we should also be including mobile games here, if well referenced. I have no doubts many mobile games have sold more than a million units. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

What kind of Bull is this (GTA: SA related)?

Why is wikipedia using the most up to date sales figures account, when showing the sales of GTA 3 and GTA: Vice City, but then resort to a 2 year old sales figure when talking about GTA: San Andreas?. The Take Two financial analyst gave an updated sales figure for ALL THREE! which showed GTA3 at 12 mil., GTA: Vice City at 15 mil., and GTA: San Andreas at 20 mil., so why not also include SA updated figures? to keep its figures looking low lol...my friend's sister use to tell me that the Blackman never gets a break on wikipedia, but as i use this site more and more, i'm starting to get where she's coming from.</ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drake2u (talk • contribs) 16:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the GTA sales section? --Silver Edge (talk) 17:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Classic wikipedia B.S again

Yea, they update the sales chart for GTA3 and Vice City but leaves San Andreas with a two year old outdated sales figure. I talked to many of my friends who said they try to include the updated sales figures but the wiki system isn't allowing it. Whats the problem, does wikipedia have an 'issue' with San Andreas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drake2u (talk • contribs)

You are right, maybe we should revert those to the previous number because it is not clear whether the current ones are for the PS2 only version. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If you are talking about the 12 million number for GTA: San Andreas, all 12 million units is the PS2 only version. The 12 million GTA:SA source is dated March 3, 2005, while the PC and Xbox versions of GTA:SA wasn't released until June 7, 2005 (which is three months after the 12 million press release), [4] [5] so it is certain that the 12 million is sales for the PS2 version of GTA:SA. --Silver Edge (talk) 05:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Mario Sales

In the Best-selling Franchises list, Mario numbers are 200 million. But if we count game by game (NES at DS), we have a number, more or less 225 million. (Carulosu (talk) 16:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC))

Probably, however the only reference we have is that IGN article that says 200 million. We cannot add numbers up and say "It sold XXX" because we do not know whether Nintendo includes sub-franchises like Mario Party or Mario Kart in the main franchise (note that, at one point, they gave numbers for the Mario Kart franchise). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

ATARI JAGUAR

ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.17.249 (talk) 20:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Xbox 360 numbers.

For some reason, someone keeps changing the 360 entry deleting about 7 or 8 of the over a million sellers. There is no reason either as the sources cited have proof that the games have all sold the number shown. Someone is just vandalizing the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.82.166 (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Xbox 360 Arcade downloads

This number (25 million) desperately needs to be updated as it's closing in on one year old. I have been looking for a source to find the true number but keep coming up empty handed. Do you think I could get some assistance with this? -Xander756 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xander756 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Some numbers from the Guiness book

The preview of the Gamers Book of Records (page 94, it is the slide page 8) indicates Halo 2 sold 9 million, and Halo, 5 million. I think we could update the first figure with it. Page 110 (slide page 10) confirms Super Mario Bros at 40.2 million units, "ten million more than the second best selling game (the Game Boy version of Tetris)", that matches with our research. It has Super Mario Bros 3 at 17.2 million units. And Mario franchise at 155.4 million (pretty old number). Also, it says that 7 of the 20 top best selling games are Mario ones, which is also our estimate (counting bundles as well)—either we did a pretty good job, or they found this page while researching ;-). Page 111 (slide 11) has Super Mario World at 17 million (they are crediting speeddemosarchive.com for the fastest times, so we know they use internet for some of this data).

Page 58 (slide 2) says Tomb Raider: Legends sold 2.5m worldwide, but don't specify platform. Page 73 (slide 5) has Bioshock at 1.5m.

Page 114 (slide 14) says Sonic The Hedgehog 2 is the best selling game of any Sega console with 6 million copies (they specify 180,000 in Japan only, which is the number VGChartz has). I wonder if all the other numbers come from VGChartz as well, or if there is another site also saying 180,000 in Japan. It also says that Sonic Mega Collection sold 4.3m (GC, PC, Xbox and PS2 combined).

Page 134 (slide 16) has Tennis for NES at 1.2m "in Japan only" (doesn't that sound pretty similar?) as the best selling tennis game ever made. And mentions Wii Sports at 8.32m.

Page 150 (slide 18) says TrackMania series has over 3 million subscribers as of October 22, 2007 (this gives us an idea of when the book was last updated).

Page 154 (slide 20) indicates 8.47 million for Mario Kart 64 (second best selling game on N64). Note that we have that number (from the Magic Box), while VGChartz has it at 9.87m. It also has Super Mario Kart at 8 million (same as us), and Mario Kart: Double Dash at 3.5 million, Mario Kart DS at 7.83 million, and Wipeout Pure at 1 million.

Anyways, I hope they cite Wikipedia or the Magic Box if they used us as guide :-) -- ReyBrujo (talk) 06:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Ratchet & Clank

The Games from the Ratchet & Clank franchise have been sold more than 25 million times. (Source: Insomniac Games) Could someone include that to the list?--84.73.219.50 (talk) 20:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

That is not completely correct. The text reads We created the first three Spyro the Dragon games and the Ratchet & Clank franchise, which have combined to sell over 25 million copies worldwide and have won dozens of awards. Considering Spyro alone sold 20 million, we can deduce R&C sold only 5 million. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 22:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

PlayStation 2, 3 and Portable statistics needs cleaning up

I thoroughly believe that VGChartz is the most informative, handy and reliable source of information that this page needs. If any of you have gross dosagreements with me, then say so, but I will be updating the PlayStation 2, 3 and Portable lists so that it fits with what VGChartz. Some of the statistics here are based from press releases years ago, and VGChartz continues to show up-to-date information. Is that ok with you guys if I change the lists? Insomniac dog

Sorry, but we have discussed this a lot. Before recreating this article, it was purely based in VGChartz. The only user who kept adding VGChartz numbers was WhiteMinority. Check the second archive, there was a lot of discussion about the site. Right now, we prefer to keep a high quality article with several reliable sources than one with only VGChartz. Check how was the article before and after the source modifications. If you want, you can also check WP:CVG, where the topic was discussed a lot. Personally, VGChartz does their own research based on other's research, but is no different from me doing my own research and publishing it in Geocities. Whenever they can be proven reliable, we can begin talking, but until then, they are no different from a Tripod or Xoom fan page. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 00:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

But VGChartz is the best resource we have! I've checked some on the dates on the statistics, and some of them go right back to 2005! I believe that the constant supply of new and useful information provided by VGChartz is paramount to this page if we want to keep it informative. People are going to visit this page and think that a game hasn't sold well, but in reality, sales might have gone up tremendously over the last few weeks or months. If you can understand what I'm saying, then thankyou, but I really do want to update this page. Listen, I understand how we need a variety of reliable sources, but you can't deny that VGChartz has an extensive range of information that basically baby feeds with what we need to know! I'm completely with WhiteMinority on this one. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has sold tons more copies than Vice City, and yet the ranks are reversed to the extent of 3 million copies. Look at the PSP statistics. Liberty AND Vice City Stories are nowhere to be seen, and they are by far the best-selling PSP games to date. It just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry, ReyBrujo, but I am disagreeing with you on this subject. We've stumbled across an extremely helpful AND reliable source and you just want to throw it away because it might be innacurate? Hello! Ratchet and Clank 2 and 3 are well over 2 million sales by now, and the latter isn't even on the list! Are we going to sit here and wait six months for a small press release saying "Assassin's Creed has just toppled the million sales mark" or are we going to use VGChartz and get the best information that we've come across in months?! I hope you can understand me and WhiteMinority's side of the argument. Insomniac dog —Preceding comment was added at 01:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that VGChartz invents numbers. I have been searching for the Pokémon Red/Blue sales in Europe for months, and could never find a reference. They have it at around 10m. Can you tell me how they reached that conclusion? They have an extensive list of games, but notice the difference: we can say "This is the reliable source that says the game sold XXX amount." They cannot. They can only claim "Look, I think this game sold XXX amount." Our list is one of the best lists in games, which has been picked as source by several important sites (like The Independent, Yahoo Games and GamesRadar). If a game has really sold a million copies, don't you think the company that created the game wouldn't say "Look! We sold a million copies!"? We can't just throw away the reliability and verifiability of this article for the sake of completeness. Note the header of the list: "This is an incomplete list, which may never be able to satisfy certain standards for completeness." So, a game that has sold a million copies is not listed here? And? I am sure there are hundreds of games that had sold that much and we will never discover them. That is what makes us different (and better) than VGChartz: We pick the information from reliable sources. They just pick numbers from a few sources and extrapolate the rest (the HUGE rest, mind you, like all Europe). You think VGChartz is the best source ever in Internet for this game? Well, if they were really notable their article would have not been deleted from Wikipedia. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 05:32, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Forza 2 reported at 2,810,000

http://www.vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=6076

04:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

As much as the site blows this article out of the water, we need 100% verifiability here. While many of the figures are accurate, many of the figures are also estimates. Forza's numbers are an example of an estimate.

MontanaHatchet (talk) 04:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)