Talk:Livonian War/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: WikiCopter (t • c • g • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 00:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Looking good, refs are in adequate amount, the only thing I can think of right now is that the image with caption "Old Livonia" needs some explanation of colors (and Old Livonia is not really a descriptive caption). Will be back later to give more comments. WikiCopter (t • c • g • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 00:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Fixed a dablink. There are still two you can fix (I don't know where they are supposed to go) by clicking here. WikiCopter (t • c • g • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 03:13, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Using Toolserver, I've found that you don't have access dates for 3 external links (see here) and that you need to copyedit the article. Some of the article is in Brit English and some is in Yankee English. That isn't acceptable. WikiCopter (t • c • g • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 03:18, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I've covered most of the above. Did you mean a proper copy edit? Might need one of the guild to have a look at this if you did. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

If you would want to do it yourself, you are welcome, and I will look it over again (I was a copyeditor, so I could do it for you if you would prefer) or you could post at the guild. WikiCopter (t • c • g • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 01:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Onhold for 7 days

I request to put the review on hold for a few more days. The article had several issues, such as the lack of background/aftermath sections and a proper structure, which I have fixed; what I am doing now atp is fact-checking the paragraphs not written by me. I have so far erased two serious errors: Lübeck was not subject to Batory's actions as described and did never belong to the PLC, also Ermes took place in 1560, not 1561, and was the pretext of Vilna 1561, not the other way around. Maybe Grandiose can assist in the fact-checking if some of the referenced literature is available to them? My spare time is limited atm, but I'll do my best. Skäpperöd (talk) 11:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Most of what was not written by you was written by me. The Lubeck thing must have been me going mad; the Ermes part was in before I started editing (I think). For this sort of thing, I think we can trust suitably referenced material (and two editors not shying away from discussing it). I think it could do with a copyedit, though, and a double check of controversial statements (most of which I've already done) and material that isn't referenced and whether it needs to be. I'll drop by the guild, I think it's best not to have a reviewer making this sort of edit (i.e. any sort of edit) where it can be so easily avoided. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:17, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Will begin copyedit. I request that results of the fact-checking be forwarded to this review or sent to me by email. The caption for the image is fixed, good on that. WikiCopter (♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 23:28, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Comment The Russian flags in the infobox are different, use the first only. WikiCopter (♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 23:29, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Question You are planning to take this to FA(C) later, right? Because we are veritably chewing this article up... =) WikiCopter (♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 23:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I tweaked some things during the copyedit, and I'm not sure if you like them. I will be adding some more. Take a look ↓

• This constellation is described by Robert I. Frost as follows... → This volatile region is described by Robert I. Frost as follows....

Comment The Tsardom of Russia, which became Livonia's eastern neighbour by absorbing the principalities of Pskov and Novgorod, had grown stronger after annexing the khanates of Kazan (1552) and Astrakhan (1556). You have dates for the khanates, but not for the principalities. Do you have dates? WikiCopter (♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 23:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

If we look at controversial statements, we see:

• "the landmeister's son killed Lancki, a Polish envoy" (added by me); cites Bain (1971). p.84; reads "Lancki, one of the Polish envoys, was murdered by the Grand Master's son";
• "Both Ivan IV and Eric XIV showed signs of mental disorder" "Eric XIV of Sweden was overthrown in 1568 after he killed several nobles in the Sture Murders (Sturemorden) of 1567, and was replaced by his half-brother John III." (added by Skäpperöd); cites Frost (2000), pp. 26-27.; reads " Erik's increasingly bizarre behaviour, which culminated in his murder of several members of the Sture family... led to his deposition in 1568 by his brother" The Ivan part is missing a clear citation. I believe Ivan's irregular behaviour has traditionally either been put down to grief, or some chronic back problem.

• Until a cite be found for the Ivan section, I think it should be removed.

• The Governor ordered that the Swedish party be attacked, their clothes and money taken, they be deprived of their food and drink and that they be paraded naked through the streets" (added by me); cites Madariaga p.261; reads "The Russians were then ordered by the Governor to attack the Swedish party, and robbed them of their clothes and their boots. They forced them to expose themselves in the streets... exposing their buttocks and their private parts ... and deprived them of food and drink"
• "the Russian forces roasted alive some of the leaders of Weissenstein's Swedish garrison, including its commander" (added by Skäpperöd) cites Peterson (2007). pp. 91–93; I don't have this book.
• "then Kokenhusen (Koknese) submitted to Magnus to avoid fighting Ivan IV's army, the tsar sacked it and executed its German commanders" (added by Skäpperöd) cites Frost p.27; reads "[Kokenhausen's] German commanders did not want to surrender; they were executed for their pains"
• "La Gardie massacred its inhabitants, 7,000 people, in retaliation for previous Russian massacres" (added beforehand) cites Oakley (1993). p.34, and Solovyov (1791). p.881, I don't have the first, the latter says "Нарву, где пало 7000 русских," which is approximately "Narva, where 7,000 Russians fell" and goes on to mention La Gardie in the same sentence, but does not quite cover the relationship between the two.

Clearly everything is usually expected to be referenced, but I think we can AGF for the others. User:Skäpperöd should be able to cover the remaining one-and-a-half points. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:02, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I will wait for Skapperod. I hope this doesn't drag ON and ON like the Alexander the Great article =). WikiCopter (♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 22:04, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I certainly don't want to unnecessarily delay the nom, I just think the article was not ready to have the "good" ribbon added when the nomination started. But we have made some progress and the article is much better now. Below, I provide the respective quotes referencing the points raised above:

• re Ivan's mental health: "In 1565 [...], Ivan's fragile mental health collapsed. Withdrawing to Aleksandrova Sloboda, he launched a blistering attack on the boyars and clergy for having betrayed him [...]. Over the next seven years, Muscovy descended into political chaos, as Ivan's oprichniki carried out a series of bloody purges", Frost (2000), p. 26.
• re Weißenstein: "After capturing the city they proceeded to roast alive the Swedish commander and some of his staff [...]. Sweden retaliated by besieging Wesenbg. [...]", Peterson (2007), p. 91. For more on atrocities and assessment cf. Frost (2000), pp. 78-80; there should probably be a paragraph about that, too.
• re Kokenhausen: "Ivan crossed the border with 30,000 men [...]. Kokenhausen attempted to ward off its fate by putting itself under Magnus's protection. Ivan, annoyed that Magnus had not consulted him, sent a strong force to take the town. Its German commanders did not wish to surrender; they were executed for their pains, and a powerful garrison of 1,000 was left in this key fortress [...]", Frost (2000), p. 27.
• re Narva: We could add an additional reference to Frost, who in the context of atrocities says "When the Swedes stormed Narva in 1581, they gave no quarter; according to Rüssow, 7,000 Muscovites were killed", Frost (2000), p. 80. In a footnote, Frost points to B. Rüssow's Chronica der Provintz Lyfflandt, p. 147. Oakley (1992/3) on p. 34 confirms that Narva was taken, but does not refer to the massacre. The ref should be moved or deleted. A better ref is Roberts (1968): "And on 6 September 1581 de la Gardie crowned the work by the storm of Narva. An appalling massacre followed, for unlike Ivan in 1558 de la Gardie spared neither man, woman nor child: before the troops had finished their bloody work over 7,000 persons are said to have been slaughtered", Roberts, Michael (1968). The Early Vasas. Cambridge University Press. pp. 263–264. ISBN 0521-31182-9.

Grandiose, did you meanwhile get a consensus for the merger of the campaignbox to the treaties template? Skäpperöd (talk) 09:29, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

No, although that needn't get in the way of this GAN (I have now listed it for discussion). It would seem Roberts couldn't be clearer... but his use of "7,000" just like the others suggest he is working from the same materials. I think we should present it as La Gardie taking the city, then 7,000 Russians were killed; the reader is then left to draw the same inference that Roberts did (and most people would). I have Frost in front of me, Skäpperöd, sorry, I did manage to miss the bit about Ivan. Reading pp.78-80, what becomes clear is that a lot of the massacre stuff isn't clear, with Frost himself noting "rhetorical flourishes"; we should keep his scepticism - something must have happened (as Frost says, it can't all the a literary construct), but is hard to say to say where or when or how big.Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 11:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and I don't think that the last issue necessarily be a stumbling block for GA status. (#3 reads "it addresses the main aspects of the topic", for example). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:33, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I will pass it, but I will be tracking this article. Before I pass, I will put this on 2nd opinion for a couple days. WikiCopter (♠ • ♣ • ♥ • ♦ • simple • commons • lost • cvu • onau) 22:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)