Talk:Lock Haven, Pennsylvania/Archive 1

Archive 1

History

The History section needs to be re-written as a prose narrative rather than a chronological list. I've been putting off the re-write in the hopes that someone would or could provide sources for the list or parts of it. Can anyone find support, other than personal web sites, that can be cited? Maybe the job will be easier if we compress the long list of big floods into a single sentence; it should be relatively easy to support a claim of frequent floods (one every seven years on average, or something like that) and claims about the 1936 floods and other specific big floods. I'm not sure how much of the general pre-history is useful. Maybe it could be compressed into a sentence or two. Any thoughts? Finetooth 00:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I have re-written the History section as a prose narrative. To retain as much of the good work of the authors who preceded me, I re-arranged the material by century and created a separate flood subsection. I moved the History section above the Geography and climate section and just below the lead. Much remains to be done. The 19th century has gotten short shrift and deserves more detail. Everything before the 18th century has gotten nothing at all; people apparently inhabited the area as early as 8,000 BCE or so. Something, a couple or three sentences, might be said about those earlier centuries if we can find reliable sources. Speaking of sources, I supplied a few, but the article still includes unsourced claims that might be challenged. The lead must be re-written to reflect the new content. We need a section on infrastructure, and maybe the highway stuff belongs there rather than in Geography. A photo of the city skyline from the Lockport side of the river would show the levee as well as the taller buildings, I think. Maybe someone who lives in the area could have a whack at it and upload a Lock Haven skyline photo to the Wikimedia Commons. Such a photo could be placed in the city infobox. See Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, for example. Finetooth 03:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The changes look good! Dincher 20:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The article is coming along. The 20th century is now the thin one. It's got nothing yet about street cars, for example. Cursory research reveals the existence of the Susquehanna Traction Company (formerly the Lock Haven Traction Company) that leased and operated 12 cars on 5.5 miles of electric railway connecting Lock Haven, Flemington, and Mill Hall in 1908. The city also had a passenger train station and passenger service through at least the 1950s. It also had commercial airline flights to and from its airport. Does anybody have suggestions for material about these modes of transportation in and around the city? Or details about the other 20th century industries such as the silk mills, the dye works, and the wire mill? Also, the article still needs photos, maybe of one or more of the grander houses. This thought reminds me to say thanks to Ruhrfisch for the Big Runaway map; I shouted "yes" when I came across it. Finetooth 04:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

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I'm no expert, just an interested reader. Their seems to be two treaties of Fort Stanwix. One in 1768 by the British and one in 1784 by the United States post independence. The first treaty is footnoted and cross-referenced to the wiki article "Treaty at Fort Stanwix". However, the second has no reference and is not mentioned in the Wiki article. FYI, the Jersey Shore article also makes reference to the Treaty at Fort Stanwix, but it appears to be only to the later treaty. Do they two treaties go by the same name?X17bc8 (talk) 15:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. You are quite right; there were two Fort Stanwix treaties. I had wikilinked and sourced the first but not the second in paragraph 2 of the "Eighteenth century" section. I've now linked the second instance, and I'll track down a reliable outside source for the claim and add a separate footnote. After I've done that, I'll take a look at the Jersey Shore article. I might not get to these two things until tomorrow (Monday). Finetooth (talk) 02:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I found and added a source for the claim, which I modified slightly to match what the source says. The second Fort Stanwix treaty transferred most but not quite all of the remaining Indian land within today's state borders to Pennsylvania. A small triangle of land near Erie came along later. Thanks again for the nudge. I have not yet looked at the Jersey Shore article for Fort Stanwix material. Tomorrow. Finetooth (talk) 05:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

It's now Monday, and I'm not seeing the reference to the Fort Stanwix treaty in the Jersey Shore article. If you can give me more specifics, I'd be happy to take another look. Finetooth (talk) 17:11, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Lock Haven review

link check All I could get done tonight was a link check. Most of them are fine. Found some redirects. Not a big deal if you don't change them. Dincher (talk) 00:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

lead

1. Micropolitan Statistical Area is a redirect to United States micropolitan area could read Micropolitan statistical area, last two words lower case
2. Combined statistical area instead of Combined Statistical Area

Both done. Thank you for catching these. Finetooth (talk) 03:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Pre-european

1. BCE is a redirect to Common Era

Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 03:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

18th century

1. Munsee links to Lenape, possible change to Christian Munsee?

Since all Munsee were Lenape, I linked to Lenape. My source doesn't say the people in this group were Christian Munsee, and I would just be guessing if I assumed they were. Finetooth (talk) 04:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Stick with Lenape. Dincher (talk) 04:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania just redirects to Pittsburgh possibly change this to Fort Pitt (Pennsylvania) or Fort Duquesne? I think Fort D. is the correct name for the time period in question

Changed to "northeast of the modern city of Pittsburgh" and shortened the link to plain Pittsburgh" Finetooth (talk) 03:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. Presque Isle is a disambiguation page, not sure which of the four Presque Isle in Pennsylvania links you'd want to use.

Changed to "triangular tract near the modern city of Erie". Thanks for catching this. Finetooth (talk) 03:47, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

19th century

1. Baltimore, Maryland redirects to Baltimore
2. Gothic Revival is a redirect to Gothic Revival architecture
3. Greek Revival is a redirect to Greek Revival architecture
4. Italianate is a redirect to Italianate architecture
5. Castanea Township, Pennsylvania is a redirect to Castanea Township, Clinton County, Pennsylvania

All four are fixed. Finetooth (talk) 04:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

20th century

1. Central Railroad of Pennsylvania (1893-1918) is a redirect to Central Railroad of Pennsylvania (1891–1918)

Fixed. Good catch. Finetooth (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Floods

1. Floodwall is a redirect to Flood wall

Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Geography and Climate

1. Ridge-and-valley Appalachians is a redirect to Ridge-and-Valley Appalachians

Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Demographics

1. The links to the races are redirects to Race and ethnicity in the United States Census. I don't think the links to the races need to be included.

Agreed. Links removed. Finetooth (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. Poverty line redirects to Poverty threshold

Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 04:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Economy

1. Piper J-3 Cub is a redirect to Piper J-3

Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 04:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Parks and rec

1. Junior League baseball is a redirect to Junior, Senior & Big League Baseball

Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 04:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Edu.

1. Undergraduate is a redirect to Undergraduate education

Fixed. Finetooth (talk) 04:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments

Overall it looks pretty good. Some sections are in need of expansion. Gov't stands out. I will give it a closer look, and blue pen edit later in the week. But all in all this is very nice. Good work. Dincher (talk) 00:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

One way or another, I have repaired all of these except I'm unsure about whether it should be Lenape or Christian Munsee. I think the former, but I need to double-check. The dab finder tool now finds no dabs in the article. However, the link checker finds four dead links, which all apparently went dead in the last few hours. I'll try to sort these out tomorrow. Finetooth (talk) 02:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

What are dabs? Did I do something by hand that could've been done with a tool? Changes look good. Dincher (talk) 03:03, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. Yes. Dab is short for "disambiguation". The handy trouble-saving dabfinder lives here. Its cousin, the link checker lives here. And another cousin, the alt-text viewer, lives here. They are all used at FAC, but I've added links to them from my user page to run mostly during peer reviews but also to check my own pages from time-to-time. Finetooth (talk) 03:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I decided to render the list of notable residents as straight prose, and that drew my attention to the fact that nothing in that entire section is sourced. This review is reminding me of how much I didn't know about Wikipedia two years ago. Finetooth (talk) 03:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, gasp! I need to add alt text to all the images as well. Finetooth (talk) 03:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all the suggestions above. I needed to double-check to make sure I hadn't missed anything on the first go-round. I still need to expand the government section, and I think I can do that by adding something about state and federal representation. Finetooth (talk) 04:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Blue pen edit

Lead

1. A dike and levee, I know that in South Williamsport we always called it a dike and I assume that in Lock Haven it was called a dike as well, but wikipedia seems to refer to it as a levee and levee will elict fewer giggles. So I'd go with A levee, completed...

Agreed and done. Finetooth (talk) 03:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

19th century

1. Magnolias in Pennsylvania? I've never seen one and it doesn't seem like they'd make it there. A quick look shows that they seem to be restricted to warmer climates. I could be wrong.

Good question that caused me to hunt. I found a couple of sources that confirm that Magnolia accuminata, the hardiest of the U.S. magnolias, thrives in Pennsylvania and as far north as Canada. See here and here. Finetooth (talk) 04:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. I'd change spar to mast, had to look up spar.

Masts seem to be a subset of spars. I wikilinked to spar. Good catch. Finetooth (talk) 05:02, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. I don't think that it needs to be mentioned that the West Branch Canal was authorized by the PA General Assembly.

Agreed and done. Finetooth (talk) 05:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. The picture of the log raft on Pine Creek is causing a hold up at the Upper Pine Bottom State Park FAC. Ruhrfisch is ironing out the details and they should be resolved soon.

Naturally I'm hoping that the free-use OK comes through. Finetooth (talk) 05:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. The sentence about the pile of logs at the Dunnstown Dam is confusing. I suggest rewording it into two sentences.

Good catch. I reworded it as two sentences. Finetooth (talk) 16:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

20th century

1. Last sentence. Change school to university. Too many schools in this paragraph

Done. Finetooth (talk) 16:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Floods

1. Strike since at least the advent of written records. It can be safely assumed that the streams have pretty much always flooded. I don't think there's a stream that hasn't flooded.

Agreed and done. Finetooth (talk) 03:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. Main stem Is stem the correct word? I am not into streams so I don't really know, but I've never heard the word stem being used in a situation like this.

It's correct, analogous to the trunk of a tree rather than a branch. In this case the main stem would mean everything from Northumberland, the confluence of the North and West branches, to the mouth of the river in Maryland. I wikilinked main stem. Thanks for noticing this bit of river jargon. Finetooth (talk) 16:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Geo. and clim.

1. Strike Pennsylvania from first sentence.

Struck. Finetooth (talk) 16:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

1. Altoona and Williamsport should be replaced with Philly and Pittsburgh. Many more people know where Philly and Pittsburgh are as compared to Altoona and Williamsport.

Done and sourced to a road atlas. Finetooth (talk) 19:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Economy

1. Change depended heavily on the region's natural resources to just depended heavily on natural resources

Removed redundant words. Finetooth (talk) 16:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

General Comments

The article looks pretty good. I'd move some prepositional phrases around. Too many sentences being with these. That's just personal preference. Overall, the article is excellent, and I believe ready for FAC. Dincher (talk) 22:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again for all of your suggestions and kind words. I believe I've fixed all of the things you've mentioned except for the open question about the log raft image and the prepositional phrases. I plan to tinker with the prose for other reasons such as starting 10 sentences in a row with "the", and I'll aim for varied sentence patterns and perhaps not so many sentences that start with "In 1872" and the like. Finetooth (talk) 19:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Here is a pic from one of my friends of PA 120 near PA 664 at Lock Haven, would you like to use it? I see no infrastructure pics.Mitch32^{(A fortune in fabulous articles can be yours!)} 19:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Mitch. Good to hear from you. It's been a while. I'll keep this suggestion in mind as we go forward. I'll probably stick with the Civil War Monument, though it might be a stretch to call it infrastructure. Finetooth (talk) 04:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you realign the Ampitheatre pic up to the right on Level 2 header, at the second paragraph, left align my image into it. You have the room.Mitch32^{(A fortune in fabulous articles can be yours!)} 17:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

It's possible to squeeze in more illustrations, but I think adding even one more might create page clutter. My rule of thumb for a pleasing layout is to aim for one illustration per section. It's only a rule of thumb and not ironclad, and I don't follow it precisely, but it seems to work well for most situations. Finetooth (talk) 18:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

On second or third thought, I might move the Civil War monument into the government section and use the highway image in the "Infrastructure" section. The view must be to the east along North Jay Street as it approaches the river. Let me fiddle a bit. Finetooth (talk) 18:44, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Nope. The monument seems out of place in the "Government" section. It has no connection to that part of the text. Finetooth (talk) 18:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, what opposition would there be to remove the amphitheater pic?Mitch32^{(A fortune in fabulous articles can be yours!)} 02:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

<outdent> That would work. I'll give it a try. Finetooth (talk) 03:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Good catch, Mitch, on the highway number. Thanks for the photo. Finetooth (talk) 03:53, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Heh, no problem. You got it right in the Alt Text, I saw 150 when looking at the image, so I fixed it.Mitch32^{(A fortune in fabulous articles can be yours!)} 03:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Archive 1