Talk:Lydia Canaan/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Hmlarson (talk · contribs) 00:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
Is it verifiable with no original research?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:
~~changes in progress~~Hmlarson (talk) 00:44, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:
Issues addressed. Thanks for your work. Hmlarson (talk) 21:38, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article is very well-written and easy to read (good flow).

Some suggestions (in progress):

Duplicate link

remove link to music at end of Literature section

That's it for now. I need to take a look at the previous review a little later + run a few more checks. Thank you. Hmlarson (talk) 00:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Few more things

under Early life and education

Can you add a reference to first sentence?
change "singing and dancing were her essential outlet and catharsis." to "singing and dancing served as an outlet and form of catharsis" (or something similar)

under Early career

The "She first donned her trademark, trend-setting revealing..." sentence needs a little tweak. Is this intended to be in 1984 also? If so, you could say something like "The same year, she donned what would be become her trademark, trend-setting look: revealing leather outfits with studs. Dramatic capes and hip-length blonde-streaked hair characterized her early look."
"On stage, her provocative costumes made her a sex symbol." Can you add 2-3 references for this statement and change to something like, "On stage, her provocative costumes contributed to her perception as a sex symbol."

under Solo career

"Canaan performed a sell-out concert" change to "Canaan performed in front of a sold-out crowd"
Is there anything known about the content of the death threats? Any reason stated for why she was targeted? Hmlarson (talk) 01:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Last sentence in this section needs a reference. Hmlarson (talk) 01:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More soon. Hmlarson (talk) 01:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your help. I've made the suggested changes and additions to the article. WikiEditorial101 (talk) 20:05, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Here are a few more things related to referencing:

The reference in the lead doesn't support ""first rock star of the Middle East" in the catalog of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum's Library and Archives." Can you provide another reference that does?
Under Charity work, can you add a reference(s) for the last part of the sentence ending in "Unite Lebanon Youth Project (ULYP), Arab Resource Center for Popular Arts, Al-Jana (ARCPA), Social Support Society Active Ageing House, NASMA Foundation, and Association Amour et Partage."
In the awards table, can you add references for the ones that do not have a reference included?
Can you add references for the details column of the Music videos table?
For the Oration table, can you add references? Looks like videos of each speech are on her YouTube channel and could be used as references.

Hmlarson (talk) 04:06, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WikiEditorial101 - In addition the references noted above, I've added a few more citation needed tags to the article. I need to check the images - but overall, I think once these reference issues are resolved, the article should be good to go. Thanks for your work. Hmlarson (talk) 15:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmlarson - Ok, I've added the above-mentioned references and also citations for the unsourced material indicated by the "citation needed" tags. Let me know if anything else is in need of improvement. Again, thank you for your help; although I am not the original author of this article, after finding it in the form of an abandoned, error-ridden, subjective stub, I've adopted it and have done my best to do the subject justice. Cheers! WikiEditorial101 (talk) 19:17, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WikiEditorial101 - Thanks. It looks like the following is still needed:

Can you add references for the details column of the Music videos table?
Under Charity work, can you add a reference(s) for the last part of the sentence ending in "Unite Lebanon Youth Project (ULYP), Arab Resource Center for Popular Arts, Al-Jana (ARCPA), Social Support Society Active Ageing House, NASMA Foundation, and Association Amour et Partage."

Hmlarson (talk) 02:37, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section

The quote "first rock star of the Middle East" is not directly attributed to, nor is it connected in any way to, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Library and Archives. In fact, there are no items related to Lydia Canaan contained in the library or archives, only a name in a searchable database. There seems to be some confusion about what an online collection catalog actually is. While such databases have a functional purpose for locating archival items, inclusion of a person or thing in such a database is not any type of "honor" or form of recognition. Attempting to glorify a person with such a remote and tenuous connection to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame via a name in a card catalog is the most ludicrous example of puffery I have ever seen on Wikipedia. It should be removed from the article. Piriczki (talk) 02:17, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Piriczki I don't fully agree per this reference: "catalogued as a historic figure in the Rock’n’Roll Hall of Fame Library and Archives" though think the sentence needs to be modified to better reflect the references. Hmlarson (talk) 00:11, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the entire article: [1]. Hmlarson (talk) 00:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Piriczki You're entirely incorrect. The Library and Archives is an incredibly selective physical museum in Ohio in which Lydia Canaan has a physical file, display, and curation of memorabilia. The online database simply lists the names of those within those archives, as there is no online museum. Canaan sold very few albums—so few, in fact, that there are no official numbers concerning record sales. She is also relatively unknown and obscure—certainly not a household name such as most of the other musicians listed. The sole reason that Canaan received this recognition (and the sole reason why she is noteable enough for there to be a Wikipedia article about her) is that she is widely considered a historic first: the first "rock star" of the Middle East. Her display at the physical museum in Cleveland bills her as the "first rock star of the Middle East" and leaves no room for speculation as to why they have recognized her.

Hmlarson I kindly and respectfully request that you revert your most recent edits, which I perceive as having (unintentionally) mutilated the article into something awkward and confusing due your reasonable and diplomatic intent to placate the above addressed editor who is quite in error. WikiEditorial101 (talk) 01:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WikiEditorial101 I'm not willing to do that unless references can be found to support the previous statement that was in the article. I think what is there now matches the reference. Feel free to modify it to reflect "historic figure" as mentioned in ref or provide another reference that supports the statement you want included. Unfortunately, the RRHOF Library & Archives listing doesn't provide this information as is, even though what you've stated above may be accurate. It's a frustrating challenge - but a reference is needed. Hmlarson (talk) 02:37, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The source cited says "Canaan is widely regarded as the Middle East's first rock star." I see no problem having that in the article based on that source. The problem was with the phrase "listed as the 'first rock star of the Middle East' in the catalog of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum's Library and Archives." That statement is not supported by the source and is also inaccurate. That quote is not attributed in any way to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The source cited is inaccurate in stating that "entry into the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame Library and Archives is a prerequisite to nomination for entrance into the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame." That is simply not true. The Library and Archives, a separate facility which opened five years ago, has nothing to do with the nomination and induction process which is done by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation located in New York City. There is nothing in the guidelines for nomination or induction that mention anything about a catalog. The Museum does not have a display or memorabilia related to Canaan. The Library and Archives, located two miles from the Museum at Cuyahoga Community College, also does not have any items related to Canaan. Piriczki (talk) 14:42, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Piriczki Can you provide a source for your claim "The source cited is inaccurate in stating that 'entry into the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame Library and Archives is a prerequisite to nomination for entrance into the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame.' That is simply not true."? Hmlarson (talk) 02:36, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As you are probably aware, proving a negative is difficult. Let me start with a link explaining the induction process itself. As you can see, there is nothing about the catalog involved in the process. Since there has been a lot of misinformation put forward in this discussion, I will try to explain what these various entities represent. First, there are two separate organizations involved: the Rock and Roll of Fame Foundation, founded in 1983 and located in New York City (the "Foundation") and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum which opened in 1995 in Cleveland, Ohio (the "Rock Hall"). The induction process, since 1986, is performed entirely by the Foundation. The Rock Hall's Library and Archives, which opened in 2012, is not part of the Foundation nor is it involved in any way with the induction process. In fact, the vast majority of inductees were nominated long before the Library even opened so how could being listed in the Library's collection catalog be a prerequisite to nomination? Again, there seems to be a great deal of confusion about what a collection catalog actually is. The Library contains numerous documents, photographs, books, magazines, newspaper clippings, ticket stubs, and audio recordings, which were donated by artists, executives, journalists and fans. Some items are significant, others are mundane. The online catalog simply points the visitor to where an item can be found in the physical Library and Archives, the same function that every library catalog performs. Anyone with any knowledge of the Foundation's induction process and what a library catalog is would know what an absurd idea it is to make any connection between the two. Piriczki (talk) 14:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is discussing with a condescending tone necessary for you? Focusing on providing references to support your claim(s) would be more effective. Hmlarson (talk) 15:46, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmlarson and Piriczki, thank you both for your help. And Hmlarson, thank you for your patience in giving me more than ample time to make the necessary adjustments. Now that I've made a few new minor copyedits and added a needed citation, would you mind kindly looking the article over and seeing what else can be improved before making a pass or fail decision regarding this GA nomination? Thank you! WikiEditorial101 (talk) 16:35, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WikiEditorial101: Thank you. There are a few outstanding items from the lists above:

Under Charity work, can you add a reference(s) for the last part of the sentence ending in "Unite Lebanon Youth Project (ULYP), Arab Resource Center for Popular Arts, Al-Jana (ARCPA), Social Support Society Active Ageing House, NASMA Foundation, and Association Amour et Partage."
Can you add references for the details column of the Music videos table?

Hmlarson (talk) 23:59, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: Ok, I've taken care of that now (in addition to making more corrections and adding other needed references). WikiEditorial101 (talk) 10:59, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @WikiEditorial101: - Unfortunately, when I ran the Copyright Violation Detector, it comes out as very high correlation with her bio here [2]. Some of the content in the article will need to be updated with different wording or removed per WP:COPYVIO.

A few examples (but not all) that need to be re-worded:

elementary school, College des Saints-Coeurs, Bikfaya, for a poem she composed about a child who wept for being scolded for trivial matters such as staining her fingers with ink when she writes
As reported by the newspaper Campus: "For Lydia Canaan's first gig, she had to throw her trademark short rockish black leather skirt and studs out of her bedroom window in Brummana, put on a long skirt, lie to her conservative father about where she was going, and, after changing into her leather gear, singing her teenage heart out as Angel with the band Equation".
performed to a crowd of 20,000 at the Beirut Rock Festival
With Lebanon under Syrian occupation, Canaan's concerts were held in East Beirut, Mount Lebanon, and the north of Lebanon. In Tripoli, the second largest city in Lebanon, Canaan performed a sell-out concert under tight security after receiving numerous death threats.
the title song of the advertisement "Rediscover Lebanon", produced and broadcast by CNN to over one-billion viewers, commissioned by the Lebanese Ministry of Economy & Trade to promote Lebanon as a tourist destination.

You can use the tool to identify sentences that need to be re-worked + then run again to get a new score. Hmlarson (talk) 22:29, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: I have no problem doing that, but the irony here is that the website you're referencing actually copied that content from a previous version of this article, which can be confirmed by viewing the revision history. In light of this, what would be the protocol? WikiEditorial101 (talk) 23:06, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WikiEditorial101: Can you provide a link to a specific diff in the article history to confirm this? I would compare with archive.org history of the [3] if it's available. Hmlarson (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: Here it is: [4] WikiEditorial101 (talk) 09:08, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: - Would you be willing to take a look at this and provide input? It looks like a citation being used in this article is basically an earlier version of the Wikipedia article. When I ran the Copyright Violation Detector, it comes out as very high correlation with her bio here [5]. What needs to be done? Remove source + find alternative citations? Copyedit wikipedia article? Hmlarson (talk) 19:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Instinctively the former, remove source and find alternative, but I'll try to take a look later on. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sticking with that opinion. Also, the "Discography" section needs serious referencing before this is suitable for promotion. Some of those items aren't linked, and aren't mentioned anywhere else in the article so really fall foul of WP:V. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: I’ve removed and replaced the blog source that mirrored the article, and have included in the body of the article the singles from the Discography section that weren’t mentioned (as I should’ve long ago—not sure how that escaped my notice). I also took the liberty of making a few last-minute copyedits. Hope this brings things up to snuff! Thank you again for all of your help and hard work! WikiEditorial101 (talk) 19:25, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WikiEditorial101: I'll need to take a deeper look later - thank you for the edits. @The Rambling Man: - I tried looking at some other GA musician articles (under Performers, groups, composers, and other music people) + can't find one to replicate referencing in the discography section (including for those that don't have active links) - do you know of some good examples? Hmlarson (talk) 19:50, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WikiEditorial101: Can you update ref #80? It's coming up as the one dead link. Hmlarson (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: Done! WikiEditorial101 (talk) 20:29, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WikiEditorial101: - the new ref doesn't mention Canaan. Hmlarson (talk) 22:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, I can't quickly find a music bio which has adequate referencing on its discography. There's a lot out there that should be delisted. Bottom line is that claims which aren't sourced, e.g. albums written by this person which have no article and no reference, are unverifiable and that fails GA criterion 2. Inline refs after each piece of work would be just fine. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:34, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WikiEditorial101: - can you add references to the Discography section? Hmlarson (talk) 21:58, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: Hi, and thanks for the feedback. Actually, I removed the citations from the infobox and the Discography and Videography charts/sections per the recommendation of the GA reviewer for the previous failed nomination in preparation for renomination of the article; according to him, infoboxes and charts and lists of all sorts should never have references, as charts and lists are meant to be quick reference guides for content already sourced within the article, and therefore citing them is considered redundancy (and is one of the reasons he failed the article). And, according the the editor tutorials I read following his recommendations, he’s right—which is why The Rambling Man can’t find even one Discography section/chart in any Wikipedia article that has any citations at all. However, in response to The Rambling Man‘s earlier observation that some of the songs in the Discography chart were not sourced within the body of the article, I took care of that and cited sources for mention of those songs within the body of the article.

And since the only link I could find for the MY World United Nations ceremony does not mention Canaan having participated in the event, I’m removing that minor content until such a time as it can be verified as factual. WikiEditorial101 (talk) 00:17, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WikiEditorial101: Can you take a look at "In 1993, Canaan gave an interview and performed the duet "Spiritual Man" with [[Robin Scott (singer)| Robin Scott ..." I don't see that the discography reference supports part of this sentence. Hmlarson (talk) 16:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: Ok, thanks, I’ve now added an additional reference to support the sentence. WikiEditorial101 (talk) 19:39, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I should've been more specific: "with Robin Scott (of M with hit song “Pop Muzik”) on Channel 4 in London" is not in any reference. Hmlarson (talk) 06:33, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can’t find anything for it either. I’ve removed that part of the sentence for the time being, not just because it’s unsourced, but also since it’s a seemingly random reference to one out of many interviews, while no other interviews (themselves) are directly mentioned in the article. WikiEditorial101 (talk) 22:36, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone through the article again and added a number of citation needed or verification failed tags for sentences not supported by the refs. Please add refs or edit/remove the parts that are not supported by references. Hmlarson (talk) 18:21, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: Thank you for your work. I’ve resolved all of the issues that you’ve indicated except for two things I need to run by you. The first is that the link for the award for “Never Set You Free” takes one to the home page of the UK Singer-Songwriter Contest website; when one searches “Lydia Canaan” in the searchbox, the result shows record of her being awarded semi-finalist, but I could not obtain a direct link to that result as one might normally expect. Can you please help me find a way? Because if there is a way, I can’t figure out how. Also, the Music X-Ray bio is another copy of this Wikipedia article, and if you scroll down to the very bottom they even state that the bio was taken directly from this article, which they link to. WikiEditorial101 (talk) 05:11, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some previously tagged issues were not resolved. I've re-added a few tags and included notes in edit summary. UK Songwriter Contest - leave as is. I'm not seeing the Music X-Ray bio. What ref # is it? Hmlarson (talk) 01:26, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: Resolved tagged issues. In regards to Music X-Ray, it was never used as a reference; I was responding to the comment you made in an edit when you said “[Humanitarian] section . . . appears to be too similar as copy from http://www.musicxray.com/xrays/1227833 ” WikiEditorial101 (talk) 23:01, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hmlarson: So how are things looking now? All issues resolved? WikiEditorial101 (talk) 20:34, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]