Talk:Ma Rainey/Archive 1

Archive 1

Census data and African Americans

Birthdays were not always remembered as easily as they are now, people did not carry identification, most African-American births were not recorded, and calendars were not as popular as they are now. At times, the mother and other family members would try to recollect such information to the best of their memories. The closer to one's birth a census was taken, the more accurate the information should be considered. The mother or father was often more accurate than the children, who years later, did not always remember, or, sometimes, they recalled the 'right' information' for the 'wrong' child. Bessie Smith's mother's report to the 1900 census should be considered more accurate than Bessie's sister gave in the 1910 census. After all, she gave birth to her. In the case of Ma Rainey, the first document to report her birthdate was the 1900 census. It states September, 1882. Although this date is not confirmed by any other document, this document is more reliable than later documents that were not confirmed by any earlier document. Later documents are more often based on educated guesses. Every ten years, regardless of ethnicity, a person's age changes frequently. Women's birthdays tended to make them younger rather than older. The date commonly given for Ma Rainey is April, 1886. This is two months before her sister Lizzie's birth as given in the 1900 census. In the 1910 census taken on April 25 (the day before her commonly listed birthday), Gertrude Raney is listed as 25. This indicates a birth year of 1884 or 1885, a date that does not confirm 1882 or 1886. I have seen several cases when the census date was later listed as a birthdate. The reason for the discrepancy in the birth year is not known, but it was common for people, not only women, to lose years as time went on. The reason for the discrepancy between April and September signifies that the family made their best educated guess, or that on the date of the 1910 census (April 25, 1910), Gertrude chose to celebrate her unknown birthday the next day and kept that day. Not coincidentally, Bessie Smith was given the birthdate of April 15 when the census was taken on April 16, 1910. Sometimes census takers assigned birthdates to people with unknown birthdates. While it is quite possible that neither September 1882 or April 1886 were accurate, the first document (the 1900 census) should not be discounted. It was not manufactured by a census taker but given by her mother. The greatness of these two blues artists requires that historical dates are not assigned arbitrarily. --Daviddaniel37 11:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

To the person who wrote this passage: Very Good

She apparently changed her birthday to make herself three and a half years younger. Biographies state her birth as April, 1886. 'The 1900 census, a very reliable document, states her birth as being September, 1882 (my emphasis).

---please note that census data during the late 1890s/early 1900s is quite unreliable when it comes to African Americans, especially Southerners. Unless you can find another verifiable source, please stick to the information found in reputable sources about Rainey. Please note also Wikipedia's policy on verifiability and original research. Thanks.--Pinko1977 03:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the census was accurate more often than not, even when it pertained to African-Americans. I am a professional genealogist. The census is a verifiable source. A difference of four years in the 1900 census and a difference in the month she was born is too drastic of a difference to blame on the census taker. The same changes in ages given to census takers occurs every ten years for many people, regardless of "race." --Daviddaniel37 12:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Census date from that period, especially regarding African Americans, is notoriously unreliable. That she she changed the date to make herself 3 1/2 years younger is pure conjecture designed to justify the change of birth date. People have been known to shave years off their birth date, but they don't alter the date in the process. Same goes for Bessie Smith, whose date should not have been altered. Christiern Albertson 03:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

How old are the blues?

There are two sentences in this article that attempt to debunk the idea that Rainey was one of the first people to use the term blues to describe a particular type of music, or to be one of the first to perform it. The reference to Bunk Johnson is particularly problematic, in that in his Wiki article it states that he made something else up. For every old guy who said there were "blues", there's another one who says there wasn't. Rather that get into it through an edit war, I am just going to delete those statements. This article is about Rainey, not whether or not blues came first, etc. If someone wants to discuss it, let's do so, and we can compare notes. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

How did Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith meet?

There seems to be a contradiction with the information on the wiki page of Bessie Smith and the wiki page of Ma Rainey regarding how the two individuals met, specifically which singing group Ma Rainey was in when they first encountered.

Thatwonguy (talk) 02:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)