Talk:Manchester/Archive 12

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Framing of Greater Manchester in the lede

@DragonofBatley: Re your revert of my recent edit.

"Manchester is a city in Greater Manchester" sounds awkward, stubborn, and forced, as though a pedantic author was so committed to the notion that cities be introduced with "City is a city in County" that they felt compelled to pretend that "Greater Manchester" was simply a random name for a county that said nothing about its relationship to the city. But "Manchester is a city in Greater Manchester" is not analogous to "Manchester is a city in Randomshire", and aside from being awkward, the existing formulation is both weird (cf. WP:ASTONISH) and offers the reader no information about Manchester's location: 'Manchester is located within its own urban sprawl'. Great.

You assert that analogous cases are handled similarly, but the article on London introduces what you might frame as 'the administrative and ceremonial county in which it is located' in these terms: "Since the 19th century, the name 'London' has also referred to the metropolis around this core, historically split between the counties of Middlesex, Essex, Surrey, Kent, and Hertfordshire, which since 1965 has largely comprised Greater London". Is there any reason why something like "The urban sprawl around Manchester has subsumed several towns which were historically in south-east Lancashire and north-east Cheshire" would not be appropriate?

Manchester differs from, say, Birmingham or Newcastle upon Tyne in that the wider metropolitan county does not have its own name like "West Midlands" or "Tyne and Wear". The adjective 'Greater' is frequently applied to other cities in a descriptive sense (e.g. Greater Bristol or Greater Exeter); it is obvious that "Greater Manchester"—like "Greater London"—is a descriptive name that identifies the county as the wider urban sprawl of its core settlement. Kilopylae (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

No difference at all, all cities in England belong to a county (except City of London and Bristol which are a county of their own and city) but if we are gonna start debating all cities should not have their counties because they have the same namesake. What then is the difference to say Herefordshire and it being mentioned with Hereford, same with Lancashire with Lancaster and Lincoln with Lincolnshire? All cities/towns have their county names included in lead and Manchester isn't any different. Also according to your above comment you say Birmingham doesn't have its own county name. That is actually true and false in that yes there is no official Greater Birmingham but there are both LEPs which is called Greater Birmingham and Solihull Local Enterprise Partnership and Greater Birmingham is also another term for the region around Birmingham like Black Country and outlying districts not a part of Birmingham.

More to the point, Greater Manchester is a completely different entity which encompasses ten borough's and two cities (Mancs and Salfs) but Manchester is the main core but not a county of its own. It's not original like Merseyside or Humberside or even Tyne and Wear but it's still exists and Manchester is one of the UK's largest cities and GM is one of the largest conurbations in UK so I don't see why you have an issue with it being mentioned. No different to say Salford is a city in Greater Manchester or Chester is a city in Cheshire West and Chester in Cheshire, England. It's just a lead summary.

DragonofBatley (talk) 15:14, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

And to add North West England is a region covering all of England's northwest but it has no official council or authority outside of being a region which isn't what cities use. Counties are always used and regions are just that, not counties. Like East Midlands with Derbyshire Nottinghamshire Rutland Leicestershire and Northamptonshire. Some of Lincolnshire is part of the region while another is part of Yorkshire and Humber and East Anglia. So no region is ever reliable other than for a geographic reference then an entity of its own DragonofBatley (talk) 15:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Fully appreciate and vibe with the desire for consistent logic across the articles and I wholeheartedly agree that Greater Manchester merits prominent mention. Our only point of disagreement is whether it produces an awkward sentence to interpret Greater Manchester as a completely different entity to Manchester rather than a term for the de facto modern extent of Manchester including its urban sprawl (this is what separates it in my mind from "Salford is a city in Greater Manchester"). The article on Chester doesn't say "Chester is a city in Cheshire West and Chester" (which I would object to); it says "Chester is a cathedral city and the county town of Cheshire, England, ... it is the most populous settlement of Cheshire West and Chester ... and serves as its administrative headquarters" (which reads naturally).

As a compromise, what about something like "Manchester is the city and metropolitan borough that forms the core of Greater Manchester, England" [?]. —Kilopylae (talk) 16:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley Just pinging to make sure you haven't forgotten this discussion :) —Kilopylae (talk) 11:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi sorry no I haven't, was letting the discussion build a bit more to reach a fair concensus. I'll add more tomorrow some ideas for Manchester and Newcastle thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 16:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

use of G slur

The G slur is used in the "Ethnicity of Manchester" chart. i dont think it's appropriate to just have an uncensored slur when not necessary and that it should be censored (g*psy) or removed. 185.152.10.98 (talk) 02:31, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

See WP:NOTCENSORED. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 00:21, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Assalamualaikum sir 223.123.92.239 (talk) 07:54, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

It is literally the name of the ethnic category. Tweedle (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

HS2 cancelled

HS2 is now cancelled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.31.251 (talk) 07:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Obviously it's just the Manchester branch of HS2 that's been cancelled (along with the already-cancelled Leeds branch), and not the whole thing. Anyway, I've updated the article to reflect this. Mark and inwardly digest (talk) 12:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. That is most appreciated. 146.198.31.251 (talk) 07:37, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020 review

Hi article watchlisters, I am reviewing this article as part of WP:URFA/2020, an initiative to review older articles to ensure that they still meet the featured article criteria. I have a couple of concerns with this article that I have noted below:

• There are a lot of unsourced sentences, and even unsourced paragraphs.
• Lots of the information needs to be updated, like the demographics and economy sections, to include 2023 figures.
• There's lots of sources in the "Further reading" section. Can these be incorporated as inline citations into the article, or should they be removed?

Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns? If not, I might nominate this article for WP:FAR. Z1720 (talk) 15:06, 21 November 2023 (UTC)